SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

To comment on your texting question, my WH texted the OW right in front of me all he time and I never knew. It happened at dinner right in front of the whole family.

I agree that if anything is going on, they are most likely doing it in person while you are gone. Texting is not where you will find your evidence. I think Bigger has some good advice for you, that you should put recorders in the house. But after a week or so, if you don't hear anything suspicious, you should accept that nothing is going on.

I am personally not comfortable with my husband having single female friends. I didn't mind before, but I do now. I think that can be a healthy relationship boundary. Probably a good topic to discuss in MC.

Richard:

About texting or using What'sApp at the dinner table with you and other family members, the answer is an unqualified "yes" that a WS would do such a thing. I now know she was basically texting AP's 24-7, when out at dinner with me,

when lying with her back to me in the marital bed (which she fucked another man on, etc.) This is obvious in retrospect now that she doesn't text like a madwoman at night anymore, or really text at night at all for that matter. Turns out that people who aren't cheating text less often, or at least my W apparently doesn't have much of a legitimate texting life, after all.

1. The matter is indeterminate.

2. Bigger is right. Bigger is always right.

3. Only a voice-activated recorder will give you truth.

4. Have you explained to her why you are jealous? If not, you should in your case (although generally that's not a good idea i think it is for your fact pattern). If so, how has she handled your jealousy? She could take steps to reassure you. Has she? Why? Why not?

If the VAR shows nothing, tell her you'd like her to read Not Just Friends becauze you worry about boundaries getting crossed and because you love her and your family and you'd like her to understand why you are worried.

I'm going insane and I can't ask her any more questions or she'll (rightly) leave me.

It's hard to tell if you are on to something, or somewhat overly suspicious and paranoid at this point. The only thing I see is that there is likely an inappropriate of amount of WhatApp going on that is hidden, but not really any proof.

How often is he coming to your house? Does he always have the his kids? How old are his and yours kids?

I'm thinking a VAR or even a nanny cam might be a good idea. At this point, back off, and go covert.

[This message edited by twisted at 10:42 AM, September 18th (Monday)]

Can you give us more?

Aside from being in close proximity to your wife during the day, what about this makes you suspicious? Is there something about his character? Does your wife treat him differently than your other friends/neighbors? Why him?

As for the things you posted, they do not disapprove nor do they really prove anything. For example, the panties in the glove box. It is not inherently suspicious considering my wife has done the same thing. Now, if they were commuting to work together that would make it tend to be a bit more suspicious but your basis for the affair is they have the ability to be alone together during the day. Sure, they could take the car but now it seems like there more assumptions built in to make the evidence hold weight.

Boxers same thing. 2/3 times it was mixed laundry, so you know it CAN happen. It is therefore no more likely than him leaving a pair and her washing them. But why would he leave his underwear?

The coincidences on Whatsapp, can you explain more? I am having a hard time trying to understand how you know they are on at the same without being able to monitor Whatsapp all day.

I am concerned that you asked for a Polygraph and are not accepting the results. That is not really fair. Also, conspiracy theories are a red flag for paranoia. If you took issue with the test being faulty, it would be more understandable. But to say she conspired with someone she knows that works there despite having no proof, is quite frankly, rather alarming.

Also, the set up with the Whatsapp yielding nothing suspicious but still doubting her is odd. I think you wrote that you rationalized his nonresponse by concluding he does that with you. But if you are trying to prove there is a "special" relationship, would that not prove that there is nothing extraordinary if he is treating her the same as he would you?

If you really want to be objective and discover the truth, you have to be fair in assessing the evidence. If you are going to only put significance on evidence that is damning, then you really aren't trying to seeking the truth but only perceiving what you want the truth to be.

So my conclusion: Inconclusive.

But I think you need to ask yourself, what is would be enough to settle your mind? If the answer is nothing, then you're going to see "evidence" of her cheating everywhere.

[This message edited by KingRat at 10:42 AM, September 18th (Monday)]

Have you asked any of the men who has stayed with you if those boxers belong to them?

The thing is, these can definitely be red flags, but they can also be coincidences, and it's hard to know which is which in any given situation.

There are plenty of folks on this site who didn't know until they knew, if that makes sense. In other words, we see the red flags in hindsight but at the time, they seemed innocent, or at least, not anything significant. I can tell you that a couple of times, my friend asked me if I thought my husband might be cheating, and I answered with no hesitation that it simply was not possible - that he might not want to be married to me anymore, but no way would he cheat. We both wish I'd been right about that, but my membership on this forum is evidence of just how wrong I was.

Yes, my husband texted OW while he was with us. He texted her on Thanksgiving. He texted her while he was on a birthday outing with our son. He texted her on my birthday - which he forgot - and then told her he'd forgotten it. He even texted her while he was in bed with me.

My husband did not use a hidden texting app, but they certainly exist and would make it hard to track on a phone bill (so not seeing anything suspicious on your phone bill doesn't necessarily mean nothing is going on). Calls can go through Google voice, and I think even Facebook offers that option now.

I think your best bet would be to get a couple of VARs or even nanny cams and place them around your home. Honestly, I'd give it a little longer than a week, but that's just because she might be being a little more careful right now.

I'd say that usually, when our intuition is telling us something is wrong, it is wise to pay attention. If, however, you've explored all the different ways to catch her and everything seems on the up and up, maybe it's a good idea to explore what else might be troubling you

Also, I think a few folks mentioned it, but even if nothing is going on, that kind of proximity and frequency of spending time with another man definitely opens the door for boundaries to be crossed down the road. I wonder if any of our waywards here would have heeded the kind of frank conversation that could have addressed such things before they became real risks to the marriage?

I'm sorry this is troubling you enough to seek out this site. I remember how confusing it was as I began to become aware that something was possibly very wrong. It's such a weird place to be, mentally, because we tend to trust our spouses implicitly and the notion that they might be betraying us is really difficult to comprehend.

Good luck to you; I hope very much that your findings show that she has remained your faithful spouse all along. Might I suggest you both read Gottman's "What Makes Love Last? How to Build Trust and Avoid Betrayal"?

1.

Would she really whatsapp him when at dinner with me and her parents sitting at the table.

He hasnt been online again still up to now.

Also he is only online c. Twice for a minute ir two or so each day. If it was an afaair surely there would be more chat?

Two part answer. Yes, to the first question. Sure, like others have said, it is very possible that she would do that. BUT, the second question is more important. Yes, there would be more communication. If you look at the other responses not only did they communicate at times that would not be expected, THEY COMMUNICATED ALL THE TIME!! Not just in front of her parents, but in front of you, the kids, the dog, the cat, in front of anyone anywhere. How can there be an affair without contact?

2.

Also as she knows i can see her whatsap times and gus surely she would stop doing it??

More than likely she would, but you cannot rule it out. But if her frequency of contact has not substantially dropped and has remained the same, then it is not as suspicious. If someone has nothing to hide, would they start hiding it? Probably not.

3.

Would she really go to the lengths of forging or bribing a lie dectector test.

She cracked under mybquestioning and said.

Damn it lets just do this test so we can get on with our lives.

So she didnt have to she could have kept arfuing.

This is the one that makes the least sense. Honestly, if you are going to assume she conspired with a friend to fix the results, then all bets are off. I'm not sure how a VAR would do any good even if it picked up nothing suspicious. Bc like someone else mentioned, then why wouldn't you believe she and him use code words to communicate? If you would have still question the results if she failed, ok. But if you would take that as irrefutable proof, then you really are not being objective. You are picking and choosing evidence based on what you want the results to be.

Some questions.

1. Does she guard her phone like the gold at Ft. Knox?

2. What makes it more than likely him compared to any other male? Of course, there is going to be some communication because of the children, but what else is there that stands out?

3. How long have you suspected this to have gone on?

4. If you were accused of a crime and had a choice, would you expect (for yourself now) to be convicted based on solid facts and reasoning or a detective's gut feeling?

[This message edited by KingRat at 12:18 PM, September 18th (Monday)]

If you were accused of a crime and had a choice, would you expect (for yourself now) to be convicted based on solid facts and reasoning or a detective's gut feeling?

I humbly disagree.

First infidelity is not a crime. Should be but it's not so...

Second I'd say that a good 97% of BS's felt something was "off". Maybe they didn't recognize them as red flags but something in their gut told them, screamed at them that something was wrong. I know it did for me and thanks to some good PI work that I did I managed to get concrete proof of what my WH was doing. Took a damn long time and alot of hours wasted on VARS but I got him.

So I would t discount the "gut feeling".

Ok.

If someone accused you of lying to them, and when asked why they thought that, they could not give you a reason other than a gut a feeling, would you accept that?

I did not say "gut feelings" are to be discounted but suggested they are not infallible.

Everyone can point to times in their lives when they had a "gut feeling" that turned out correct. And if they're being honest with themselves, they could also point to times where they were not.

What about all the people who were blindsided by infidelity, heck, the previous poster said there was "no way" she believed her husband was cheating. Until she found out.

All I am saying is that if gut instincts are the alpha and the omega, then there would be no mistakes in your life. You would intuitively know what to do.

There is no way to know until you catch them. I'd get some VAR's. Put one under her car seat and the other or others in your house. Tell no one about them. I sincerely hope you find nothing except a bunch of dead air.

You have voiced your discomfort with this friendship more than once. She knows it makes you unhappy.

He still comes over when you're not home.

He doesn't pop in when you're home.

She still texts him a lot.

Nothing about the friendship has changed.

She's not putting you,or the marriage first.

Affair or not...this is a problem.

I have read this thread twice but apologies if it's been asked or I have missed it, what were your questions for the poly test.

Once again, why don't you tell her you are not comfortable with her doing it and put a boundary that stops it. IF you ask her to stop because it makes you feel bad, and she continues, then you have something.

Why are you not telling her you need her to stop texting/apping him? What am I missing here?

To everyone who has helped me.

Thank you all so, so much.

I wish you all every happiness in your lives and relationships.

It's heart-warming to know there are so many kind hearted people in this world.

PlanC: Have you explained to her why you are jealous?

Yes I have but she is fed up after 6 weeks of questioning. Sympathy has gone, not that there was much anyway. She doesn't like being accused, but only gets really angry at times I suspect I have foiled a potential meet with her AP.

Twisted:

How often is he coming to your house?

Over 2 years I came home 5 times unannounced. 4 times he was here. 3 with his child. Once without but my 2 yr old may have been in then. They are now 10, 4 and 8. He does pop over to borrow stuff once every couple of mths.

King Rat:

what about this makes you suspicious?

You can tell in your partner when they find someone attractive, although she says 'he's not my type'.

WhatsApp is key as without this I could let it all go.

You can see when a contact is online (i.e actively using the open app for browsing or messaging - it could be either) and you can see when they were last online to the minute if they are not currently online.

Almost EVERY time he is online (usually only twice a day) my W is online within 0-10 minutes.

I just can't get my head around how it can be coincidence. The statistics of it must be crazy.

My W is online sometimes 4 times an hr but sometimes not for 2 or 3 hrs. So the chance they are always online within 3 mins of other every time (by coincidence) is very very slim.

This is my key worry.

But she will delete all messages and I can't retrieve them unless they are within 7 days and she hasn't used a lot of download storage which she always does.

PLEASE SOMEONE HELP EXPLAIN THIS ONE AWAY and cure me! :)

Blue Iris:

Have you asked any of the men who has stayed with you if those boxers belong to them?

Yes - no one knows. I can't ask her dad as he just told me 'she's my daughter - she wouldn't do that) - yes I spoke with the father in law.

1. Does she guard her phone like the gold at Ft. Knox?

No but she is on it much more than she used to be.

2. What makes it more than likely him compared to any other male? I think she fancies him.

3. How long have you suspected this to have gone on? 2 years since he worked from home/los his job.

4. If you were accused of a crime and had a choice, would you expect (for yourself now) to be convicted based on solid facts and reasoning or a detective's gut feeling? No! Good point.

SatPhil:

what were your questions for the poly test

I was only allowed 3 and they all had to be closely related, so were all versions of have you ever had any intimate relations (including passionate kissing, touching of genitals etc for sexual arousal) with anyone other than me since 2005.

I find it odd that the 3 all had to be practically the same Q. And he didn't give out the charts - I asked.

DIFM:

Why are you not telling her you need her to stop texting/apping him?

She says she's not!!!

Thanks all.

What would her reaction be to you telling her that you had an app you would like to try on her phone? One designed to recover deleted messages?

But she will delete all messages

Conversely, what if you ask her to stop deleting?

5454

Thanks.

I did that. She said it's an invasion of privacy but then did say do what you like and threw me her phone.

A good sign but I'm convinced that she would have checked online and seen it's not that simple?

Am I just overly paranoid?

She even said I could send it off to be done, but I noticed she has used ES file manager which if you google, is a tool that can be used to delete message history.

I've read all the comments and ...I am inclined to think there may well be something fishy.

Why is she so angry about this? I mean, is this a constant topic of conversation? Have you accused her and/or spoke harshly to her? Has she sat with you, showing you that she desires to reassure you that she is faithful and committed to you and your marriage?

- I think deleting texts is problematic unless she has so little storage on her phone that she only has a few pictures, etc. Does she delete ALL texts?

- Is there a way for WhatsApp to notify a user when another user is on? Because otherwise, I can't imagine how they're coordinating.

- She threw her phone? Wow. But just so you know, on the night I confronted my husband (around here we call it DDay), I asked him if I could look at his texts. He handed it over without hesitation. I decided not to look (because I still couldn't imagine he'd actually cheat), but if I had, I would have found some compelling/damning evidence, unfortunately. He deleted most of it after that conversation. A few days later, when he was still denying anything physical, he readily agreed to take a poly.

- What were your poly questions? Did you focus on physical vs. emotional cheating?

- Has you wife lied elsewhere within your marriage?

- Had your relationship with her been strained even before you suspected? Or before you broached the subject?

I admit that I find it a bit odd that she'd jump to threatening D if you don't stop worrying about this. That just seems extreme. Have you talked with this guy's wife?

I'm biased - my XW's AP lived near us, was her best friend's husband and used to stop by on his way home from night shift. She tried to encourage me to get pally with him, go to the pub etc..

I go with the VAR(s) in the house idea as a precaution.

I know nothing about polygraphs but is there any possibility that the operator was not unconnected to your wife? Did they have proper premises? Display professional certificates etc.. In other words do you know for sure that this was genuine?

Another thought - how well do you know his wife? Well enough to see how she reacts to you saying that he visits during the day? She may have her own suspicions, possibly even have evidence that she could share. Even if there's nothing going on being able to talk to someone may be helpful and there's no harm in working with another pair of eyes (could you describe the boxers to her?)

This is a tough one. After you explained a little more, I'd trust your radar, something is adding up to trouble.

I'm thinking she doing the neighbor when they can arrange it, and are keeping in daily contact, but we need proof. And she knows you're suspicious now.

The whatssup app may not be the only way they are communicating. Can you see his house? An open curtain or porch light turned on could mean you have a message or the coast is clear.

Im still recmd a VAR and some sort of security camera set up. Do you other neighbors you can get info from? Do you know his schedule?

Can you obtain any information from the kids without arousing suspiscion?

I think you should calm down first

then you have two options to buy a VAR or hire a Private Investigator ...

Calming you is to give reassurance to your wife, who has confidence. Prepare a plan when you feel that she believes that you have regained your trust and continue with the other options: VAR or Private Investigator.

Just one question: your guts tell you?

regards