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Aumanny I totally agree with your sentiments. The issue I take up is that many of the things the WS does with and for the AP are things the BS wanted in the M, but went without out of respect and love assuming the happiness of the WS is more important. When the BS finds out that someone with NO investment got to enjoy the things they paid for in the marriage and NEVER got, the rationalizations the WS uses, the fake love, the falsity of it, etc etc don’t take away the fact that the BS missed out on things they wanted out of the WS dishonesty and disrespect. And at that point, regardless of the reason, I posit that the BS deserves the things they went without earlier in the faithful part of the M, and if the WS truly does love the BS, will want to make things right and treat the BS how they feel they deserved all along, or the BS can find another partner who does want to do those things for them

[This message edited by nicenomore at 2:17 PM, January 17th (Wednesday)]

nicenomore: Absolutely agree. Not sure why you thought I think otherwise. Will review my previous post. I was going to continue responding to each question, but will pause to address yours.

One of the KEY things I have been delighted to discover is that since an affair destroys a marriage, and the only way forward for the couple involved is to start a new relationship, and that provides a fresh opportunity not only for the wayward spouse to find their voice and discover the needs that were being met in the affair, but they did not have the courage or self insight to ask for in the marriage, but ALSO for the betrayed spouse to say, hey! me too. My needs ALSO were not being met and now if we are going to reconcile and build a new relationship I want MY needs to be better met and that may include sexual needs, or emotional needs, or a combination.

Often, affair partners get to see that raunchier side of someone is precisely because the affair is a secret space where dark parts of our soul are revealed and with that comes the ability to access that shadow side, and marriage, because of its sacred nature, ends up too often being a space devoid of that shadowy side of sex, which has a place and should be INTEGRATED moving forward into the new relationship.

I fully heard that and honor that.

5. I often interpreted the affair as an act of hatred against me, because it is imbued with an aura of absolute disrespect, but that is often not the core motivation. Affairs are often acts of frustration and anger at the life the wayward has trapped themselves in with their own mental prisons, often comprised of phony rules like: "I could never ask my husband to do that, or my wife would never agree to that, or that's so dirty, I could not face him the next day if we did that, he's the father of my children, etc etc." Affairs provide a fantasy escape where such self imposed rules are suspended. This is why the AP is often NOT as good or handsome or of good character as the spouse, so sullying them with such acts is ok, because they are disposable. In that way, the wayward kind of hates the AP for taking them down to that level, and often explains all the shame waywards feel once caught. They never figure they would ever be caught, so it's ok. It is as if they become invisible during the affair, since no trace is intentionally left.

6. MUCH more often than not the AP is hardly a better man (see above). They are willing to have sex with a married person, so right out of the gate they are demanding less, less respect and less commitment and honor. So they are picked for being so LOW as being willing to be a side piece, and willing to accept the leftovers from the marriage table, the scraps. Betrayeds often start thinking it was the other way around, until they unpack the affair and find out who awkward, messy and lame the sex was once it is shown in the light of day. No man or woman wants sex that is disconnected from the heart and soul and 99% of affairs are just that.

7. Then, not only do those things, but do more, keep exploring. Go deeper into eye contact and emotional connection. No affair partner can achieve the kind of depth of connection that two people can share who are sharing their whole lives together. It is cheap, quick and superficial by comparison, no matter how much they desperately pretended it wasn't.

8. Often affairs begin way before they actually start, born from low self esteem from family of origin, or from resentments unresolved from the early years of the marriage. Potential affair partners kept on reserve just in case the pain of those festering wounds ever becomes too much for the soon to be waywards. It is poor coping mechanism for a broken person. It is not a malignant heart starting them, but a broken one. Never blame yourself that they never found a better way to heal. What they found was heroin. The affair is the needle to the arm. NEVER a healthy solution or answer to a real marital issue.

9. They loved you and fake loved them. If that were not the case, pack their bags and wish them well. Drive them over to the AP's house and watch how false that is. If they love them so much, why don't they announce to you and everyone that they are going to be together from now on and divorce us. See how fast that false narrative collapses.

10. I will go a step further. Live day to day. Stay only so long as you feel authentic love for each other and NEVER settle for less. Show up for each other with effort and kindness and desire or call it quits on the spot. Life is too short for phony inauthentic relationships. That is hell on earth.

Last thoughts:

None of this means that betrayed spouses are all perfect or that marriages we were having with our waywards was perfect. But no one over the age of 6 believes that people or marriages are perfect. We expect and should love our partners and our marriages in spite of those of those expected flaws. No one in their right mind thinks, to have or to hold, for better or for worse, in sickness or in health, til death do us part, but if things get difficult I am free to secretly make love to someone behind your back and expect to blame your imperfections and the marital issues to justify it.

COMMITMENT means to work through it or break up/divorce if we cannot. That way BOTH partners get to move on to new partners. None of us is entitled to humiliate the other partner by f--ing someone behind their back just to feel better during the hard times. That is infantile, narcissistic, immature and laughable way of looking at marriage. If you cannot control yourself, get out and let the betrayed out before you give him/her the biggest psychological trauma a human being can experience, short of being raped or their child dying.

My wife claims to have only had sex with AP 8 times over the course of a month and a half. She claims they never did anal or swallowing. I have taken this information with a truckload of salt. Knowing her, it's very likely they didn't do either act. However, I thought I knew her as somebody who would never cheat... so what do I know anyway?

Since DDay, she tried to initiate HB, with promises of swallowing, anal, and whatever else I was up for. It took me A YEAR to even want to have sex with her again!!! We actually just had sex for the first time in over a year last week. So far, it's been great, but very basic stuff. I'm not sure how far I want to push the envelop. Anal / Facials are something that we did around the time we were newlyweds (12 years ago), but tapered off by the time we had kids a few years later. I really have no pressing need to do either thing, but maybe I'll see if she's up for it. Could be fun!

But something that was CRUCIAL to R was that anything she did with the AP would be available to me as well. If she let the AP have anal sex with her, but then told me "I didn't really like it, but I let him do it anyway, and now I don't ever want to do it again", I wouldn't have accepted that. It's her body, and she absolutely has a right to say "NO". But as a BS, I have a right to remove myself from the humiliation and abuse that would put me through. Women don't get it. It's more than just a bruised ego. It's literally saying "You were not good enough to be pleasured in this way... AP was!"

William and Aumanny I commend both of you.

We were adventurous, but some of the acts were painful to her, others like facials just were not ever on the table. He convinced her to do some of these acts to get back at me, but I could never get over the fact she would let herself be so violated by him to hurt me. That in my mind made her into an accomplice.

Aumanny, you are right that at one point she tried to make the sex more emotional by introducing candles which was very big for us. He wanted no part of it. He was always pressed for time and just wanted to get her. Unfortunately the candles made on appearance after d day and ended up in the trash. Those too were tainted.

She offered everything up too, but frankly it felt like it was just done to appease, rather than please

You are right about having to make a choice to D or R. I did a half assed version of R and wasted a lot of time for both of us. I never had a chance of not getting over it, and she could have morphed into a Victoria secret model with the greatest personality and it wouldn’t have been enough. We both got so damaged there was no way back

I do admire those however who can make it through.

Totally agree with you Fender. This topic came up on the general board a couple of months back.

I posted this then....

IMO, from the perspective of a BS, it all comes down to desire and motivation. When people really want something, they do whatever it takes to get it.

What do we hear from most of the WW? That they gave sex in order to get feelings and attention in return. They really wanted something, and did what it took to get it.

Now take this same dynamic and apply it to R.

Everybody has choices in life. It's all a risk vs reward equation. It was worth the risk of destroying the marriage and losing the BS for the reward. The equation works both ways.

Will the WS put the same level of effort and desire to save the marriage that they did to destroy it?

If the BS was denied something freely given to the AP, and would like it offered to them, then its choice time

Now of course no one should be "forced" to do something they don't want to do. And in a perfect world that would be true. Many days I would rather stay in bed than go to work. But the reality of a mortgage and food forces me to go to work.

No one forced them to give it up to the AP. It was a free will decision.

And just like the payoff from the affiar, there is the risk/reward equation. If the WS says no, that was for AP, not you. So be it.

At that point it up to the BS to decide what they will and will not accept. There are many women who enjoy being sexually adventurous and monogamous at the same time. The BH can always exercise the option to go find one of these women.

This post has been so great for me. Thanks for sharing. I am going to write out my lingering issues this way (probably in private though) and answer them the same way you did. Again, thanks for posting. Reading this has really helped me today.

What I was told was that it was a fantasy, my WH did this to another mans wife because she didn't care and made him feel "special". She would do all the things that he "thought "that I wouldn't. The problem there is I didn't not want to do those things because I felt grossed out or whatever but I didn't do any of the things he wanted because 1) he was a total asshole and 2 ) he never said or explained how important certain sexual acts were to him. He made it seem like it wasn't a big deal but the truth was he did care but became a liar and very passive aggressive. The women to him were just porn stars that lived out a fantasy that I wouldn't provide again because he was being a selfish jerk. My WH is/was very disrespectful to women but then again these women were also very disrespectful to not just themselves but also to their families. I apologize on behalf of my WH and all other stupid jerks that thought it was ok to sleep with another mans wife. It's hurtful on all sides it truly is.

9 years ago is when I discovered. I can relate to this post..

"1. If you professed your love for the AP why did you choose to stay with me?"

My WW stayed with me so not to break up our family and financial security.

2. If said that he was not a better lover than me yet you choose to have sex with him and reject me during the affair. So he must be a better lover than me because you would rather have sex with him over me.

Same here.. I'm sure their sex was good... but during that time, we had good sex too at times. My W's affair was not about sex.

3. How do I know that you are not still in contact with the AP now? How can I trust you ever again? Same.. I do trust my wife. But not like before. Today, I can word things in a way she knows.. I don't feel safe. I am not so naïve over those famous last words.. "I DO"

4. What was wrong with me that you decided to cheat on me with another man? I was blamed for the affair. Not being there enough.

My W never blamed me... She took 100%. Yes, I was gone, a lot. Working, coaching our kids, etc. A difference is my wife had a LTA. All those feelings, hiding, betrayal.. etc.. It wears on people and it was like a HUGE weight lifted off her shoulders when exposed.

5. You must hate me because you cheated me so coldly during the affair. Why are you so in love with me now? I know now she never hated me. She needed to vilify me to make it easier for her to cheat. How she treated me is one of her biggest shame.

My W never hated me. She lived a double life.

6. You must think the AP is a better man than me. She never said this. This came out of my mind. She always rejected this statement.

Same but my W admitted her AP was never the man I was.. That never brought me much comfort though.

7. Did you do things with him that you never/refused to do with me? Why with him and not me? She did. I still struggle with this one. Even today.

I don't have this as an issue. During her A, she refused most times but kept me on the hook.. I got the maintenance sex.. just enough... but after it ended many things changed and I really didn't need to ask.. She wanted to with me again.

8. You planned this affair all along. She denies this but I still struggle with this one from time to time. He was a friend and she talked me into allowing him to move in with us because he fell on hard times. Being a friend to both of us I did not mind too much. I felt that they were having an affair before he moved in but she denies this to this day. I still am not sure if I believe her. Same.. work affair. Affair of opportunity I suppose. I traveled with my job every week.

9. Some days you are the love of my life. Some days you are the killer of my soul. It was true then. She is still the love of my life. Same.. I was able to work through my grief and get to a point of total forgiveness in my heart.

9. How could you love me and him? Still don't quite understand this one. You say you love me yet treat me like crap, reject me sexually, and are cold toward me, yet you love me. No way. For me, When a person is have an affair, they are not loving there spouse. It does not mean they did not still have strong feelings for their spouse. Plus, there is different types of love.. love of service, gifts, touch.. so a person can love in that way.. and have feelings for both.

10. Well it is a new year. I guess I will keep you for at another year. This is something we say to each other. Has nothing to do with the affair really but it took on a new meaning after it. Now it is a time to reflect, regroup, and refocus on our marriage. One day, one month, one year at a time. LOL.. we don't say that but we do support, communicate, accept, respect, etc. each other far more than ever.

It really take a full 100% commitment to R. It's hard at the beginning. But if you both have the commitment, no wavering.. it can bring happiness. If not, then it likely is best to move on in life. I value the time with my W and it is very special when we are with my adult kids.

I know for some the feelings that come with betrayal seem like they never go away.. It took me about 3 years before I started to feel better... 5 years to get back to a good peace. Today, It really just does not matter. If I focus real hard on back to that first month, months.. I can revisit those feeling but it gets harder to do that these days.

I wish you all peace soon..

[This message edited by trynhard at 3:35 AM, January 18th (Thursday)]

The worst part of it, because of what happened, those acts, the ones I so wanted our entire marriage, no longer hold the significance they once did. It's hard, because, before the A, those things were my "dreams" with my W, now it's tainted by the A.

Dude, this is true for me as well. Although I have considered demanding she swallow because of the research showing love biochemicals in it. Eh. Even that isn't worth the effort.

What I don't get is why the WW's/WH's do it.

Mine said that it was not because she had a wild passion about him (I'm mainly talking about AP2 here), but because she was playing the part of woman, who's having an affair with a lot of passionate sex. WW didn't really do with him anything she hasn't done with me. But there still are things that raise questions - "why in the world did you do that with him?", e.g. she sucked him during lunch hour (or after work she doesn't remember), a dick that has been marinating day or a half in his own piss

It is kind of ironic, that I consider her asshole the cleanest hole in her body, because that's the only one he didn't finish into.

Mine said that it was not because she had a wild passion about him (I'm mainly talking about AP2 here), but because she was playing the part of woman, who's having an affair with a lot of passionate sex.

Mine says the same thing. I think it's the "soft" version of the truth; just IMHO, of course, but what the heck else are they going to say? The sex "always sucks" in an A. Except that, when you read totally anonymous stuff (like on whisper) that's not the story at all. It was mind blowing, passionate, kinky as h*ll. Which is exactly what I imagine it would be like for me in an A. And I suspect I'm right, and I suspect it was for my WW; I just choose not to think about it.

The thing I'd say to that last part, how about you play the part of the wife who want's wild/passionate sex? The part of the wife who can't get enough of her H? Why "play that part" for the AP and not your H? It's not that I don't think your right, I do think that a lot of WW (and WH's too in some cases) are, in fact, playing a part. It's just that role; they already signed up for the "wild passionate sex" role when they said "I do". They just decided that wasn't on the table for their spouse but only the AP.

Dude, this is true for me as well. Although I have considered demanding she swallow because of the research showing love biochemicals in it. Eh. Even that isn't worth the effort.

Demanding it, or making a requirement for R changes it completely. I didn't demand anything new, but I did let her know that it wasn't acceptable that the AP got things I didn't. And yes, she does them now, and yes, they are hard because of what happened, how I found out (lots of TT), and her lies for years about those acts (I don't do them). I have to say, what I've learned from all this, is that "I don't have anal sex" (as an example) has nothing to do with anal sex and everything to do with the H. Because, as we've all seen, once an A is in bloom, it will be on the table. More times than not, an A will be filled with the "good stuff" that men deeply desire from women, oral sex, swallowing, kinky stuff, anal sex.. That's what is so hard about that kind of rejection, I think a lot of people feel like, even before an A, getting rejected for a "normal" sexual request (like oral sex) is about them, but, they push it down. Make it not about them; it's him/her, and they move on. But the A shows us, in very stark terms, it was about us, or about our relationship; because, it sure as heck wasn't about the WS. They were happy to do it for others, just not their BS.

It is kind of ironic, that I consider her asshole the cleanest hole in her body, because that's the only one he didn't finish into.

I'll just leave this at "Yup". I hear you man, feel exactly the same way.

Uberdave, I am glad this post helped you. That made my day to read that.

I read about an affair online, before I found SI, where the wife was having an affair and the husband found out. He had screen shots of their email conversations. In the one of the screen shots he shared online, the AP told the wife, "Only I can finish in you. You make him (the husband) use a condom". And she obeyed and made her husband wear a condom. How does that even happen? It made me think back to if my wife made weird request like that and thankfully I can't think of any. Did any wife make a request that you later learned came from the AP?

This is what makes forgiveness so damn hard. As a BS, if pretty much need the WS to worship the ground I walk on after an affair to consider taking her back, which doesn’t really promote respecting her, which is absolutely vital for real rebuilding of love and Reconcilliation. I have to admit it take a certain kind of strength to forgive and reconcile, which I respect entirely despite not being in that camp myself. But god have mercy on those who wrong the Bs if It isn’t made right, after the BS is so violated by betrayal.

I must admit, no argument a WS could make to a BS about or giving them what they gave AP is acceptable, reasonable or valid to me, personally.

One of my clients, said that his WW gave her AP anal sex, but when he asked, she said, "Oh no, I could never do that with you." Next time they were having really vanilla sex, he asked for doggy style. She reluctantly agreed, then he stuck a finger in her anus. He said she tried like hell to get away. (I told him that it was assault, and he said, I was not going to let her coworker fuck her in the ass, while I got sweet fuck all) He ended up fisting her anus. Then told her that any time she thinks that she will deny him things that she gave to the AP, she will get it 100X worse. (He did not use lube, she now has issues, but she NEVER denies him. Period.) She desperately wanted reconciliation, and he held her feet to the fire for a long long time.

Crazymixedupkid

That was wrong for him to do that. She was raped by her own husband. Though I completely understand why he felt the way he felt, what he did was just completely wrong.

Well crazy mixed up kid. Despite everything, and how fucked up it is and unacceptable to be denied what an AP got, Rape is atrocious. And your client should have just gone and found a willing single partner to indulge his needs that his WS was foolish enough to deny.

But this story seems far fetched, and frankly improbable. Perhaps your client was lying to you?

The sex "always sucks" in an A. Except that, when you read totally anonymous stuff (like on whisper) that's not the story at all. It was mind blowing, passionate, kinky as h*ll. Which is exactly what I imagine it would be like for me in an A.

Actually, WW said that she always expected that feeling to come (not specifically about the sex, but about whole affair), but it never came. And about affair sex, I have recording of her with AP3, where she confesses that she never had orgasm with her APs and always has with me and that I'm "perfect lover, but there's just no passion for him any more". In the same recording she eagerly gets on his dick, but then it is just "meh...".

Also, we have WWs on SI on both sides - some say that they had really good sex and some that it was nothing special.