SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I am going to say something that may make closet feminists on this page cringe.

I can't read past this. Feminism is a problem? So, women and their annoying rights are a problem? Geeze. Hitting the mute button.

If you don't care about or need women, then why does infidelity matter?

Gn.

I feel like this is yet another thread where the context and message gets obfuscated, diluted, twisted, and rejected. And honestly? I think the people who will suffer the most from not heeding the true message loud and clear, are the WW desperate to reconcile... because they are just getting mixed messages. Ride it out has ever so eloquently and politely framed the entire argument very well. He has clearly given it much inteecrual thought, more so than I have, where as I have often responded with passion and angry emotion.

But I’ll try my best to summarize for those who still don’t see, or even refuse to acknowledge the untwisted, undiluted core message we are saying.

It’s not about forcing or demanding. No BH wants to have to force or demand anything. If that’s what it’s come to achieve some soothing of our shattered sexual self worth, then it ain’t worth it. At that point I’d honestly rather just pay hot escorts to give me everything I want, because it’s the same thing.. a barter, an exchange of goods and services, and its not genuine or passionate or real.

What we want is the WW to recognize how god damn damaging it is to our egos and sexual value as men, to gladly and enthusiastically give an OM what we have always wanted and asked for, but been denied. Plain and simple, it tells us that the WW respected the dominance and appeal of the AP over what we offer. It makes us feel lesser. And the only way to right that, is to prove to us that we in fact, after all the emotional bruising we took, more attractive , desirable, and sexy than the OM ever was. How do you do that you ask? By ensuring the passion, frenquency, and sexual limitations are far beyond what they OM got. Specific sex acts are just examples, but the general message to understand is, men typically measure our sexual worth based on our female companions response. We consistently evaluate our prowess based on our wives desire, submission, passion, and respect. An OM absolutely devastated that. And the WW needs to rebuild it if she was wants to stay. This of course, Is assuming the husband was a good, loving honest and faithful spouse. This doesn’t apply the same to MH WW, as you are owning It now. I wouldn’t Hold you to the same standard because frankly you were just a Wounded BW.

We don’t want to have to push or demand. It needs to be unsolicited, and enthsuastically offered by the truly remorseful WW. As Western pointed out, we feel as if the A has shown is that we are the sexual beta to the OMs alpha. And that trigger some the deepest level of primal desire and rage in us. Please don’t underestimate this biological driver. Ever hear of BHs who catch there WW in bed with another man, and he gets murderous? In fact it was so common that lawmakers took it into account and actually made a law called crime of passion! I’m not justifying domestic violence, simply trying to show that the biologically drivers behind BHs feelings are so valid. It’s primal instinct.

BHs won’t ever accept being second place in our minds we aren’t hardwired to, we can’t.So WW, show your BH he gets the best you have to offer, without him threatening or demanding, because he doesn’t want to force you! He wants you to want to! He wants you to SHOW him he is the dominant male versus the OP! Prove him right! And if you don’t, don’t drag him along in fake R and rob him of meeting a good woman. A woman better than you. It’s ok if you can’t. Noones holding a gun to your head, but please don’t think your worthy of R if you can’t feel this genuinely. You’re not. Let him upgrade.

That’s being said, A couple points of exception:. Poppy- your husbands sexual selfishness in your M prior to your A was unacceptable. And frankly being a shitty husband is not ok, and if he was one, that’s not ok. But you handled it oh so poorly. You should have communicated, confronted, and ultimately left him for being a selfish asshole. I’m not defending him. But you cheated on him, and look where it’s gotten you. You’re life Is WORSE. You clearly still resent him, and I’m not sure why you don’t pull the ripcord. But, if you thought cheating on him would be a solution, I’d bet he treats you 1000x worsen now than when’s you were faithful. He was a total ass, but you fucked up royally. And if you do love him, and want to stay with it’s him, the advice given here still applies to you!. But, honesty, just cut him lose for both of your sakes.

Idk- this subject is frustrating because it just comes cant accepted for being true even though it seems so clear as day to BH that it is. I was trying to make strides toward some forgiveness and acceptance to my own failed M, R, and ex wife’s affair. And she was actually one of the smart WW! She tried her hardest and ultimately the failed R falls on my inability to accept, not her lack of doing all the right things. Maybe that’s why I even have guilt for how I treated her.

But I’ll say this... if my exWW was in the “you won’t get what the OM got” camp, id have Been remorseless for my actions. I wouldn’t feel a DAMN shred of guilt for anything. I’d probably still be sleeping with the OMs wife just To assert dominance over and over. I can’t fathom how WWs don’t see it, or that BHs accept it.

Sorry, this subject is just so aggravating and triggery. It’s frustrating that the true message never gets across for what it is, and always gets met with misunderstanding, or misinterpration.

the WW desperate to reconcile

Your concern is that these desperate women will listen to their own bodies and shun their husbands, even though they are desperate to reconcile? When? When and where has that ever happened? I've been reading here years; it doesn't.

This thread is silliness.

It is a few (insert unpleasant, confining adjectives here) BH shouting about what WW everywhere--even if the BH posting is divorced--owe their BH.

Several of us disagree.

The end.

The thread was pretty good for a while, but true colors are showing and the anti-female vibe is loud and clear. And that's all she wrote.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 9:47 PM, April 3rd (Tuesday)]

oh geez, here you go again.

1) Never said I never needed women so stop putting words in my mouth.

2) Yes, I see some extreme feminism happening on these boards and IMO they aren't healthy for having relationships with guys who aren't feminists and have their own set of rights too.

3)Yes some WW are desperate to reconcile. So are some WH. Why is this a stunning point to you ? It is common sense and we have seen it thousands of times on these boards, so what is your point ?

I too have been here since 2015 and on TAM since 2014. I see reconciliations without the same benefits provided to the OM/OW on many threads. There are several here in case you want to go back and read again

BTW, yes, in my personal life, at least 3 of my friends who were foolish enough to reconcile still get no sex ...

Next ???

good and there is no anti-female vibe. The negative vibe came when women started attacking men who wanted to be treated better than their cheating wive's affair partners. Nothing wrong with expecting more than they gave their boytoys. !! You are too gender oriented IMO the end if you are willing to end it

[This message edited by Western at 9:49 PM, April 3rd (Tuesday)]

... and shun their husbands, even though they are desperate to reconcile? When? When and where has that ever happened? I've been reading here years; it doesn't.

You've never read a post where the BH said his WW who is desperately attempting R with him isn't giving him as good of sex as she did her AP?

Or am I misunderstanding your post?

I hope it's the latter.

Yep, that’s it, anti female... Jesus OIN... I even made a point to mention that I DONT see you as a true WW. I’m no better than you! I’m an MH!

Nor did I ever mention not having respect for, love for, or integrity for honest women. Having an opinion on WW who don’t understand or refuse to acknowledge the importance of BH needs is in NO WAY indicative of how I view women in general! Where did I once say “all women”?

If you must know my views on women’s rights might astound you. I’m pro equal pay, equal work rights, pro abortion rights, pro sexual equality (very against slut shaming), and generally pro women. I have no right to tell any woman how to live her life, and I support feminists fighting for equality.

Where do I draw the line? Infidelity! How is that so hard to accept? If you mean, I’m typically anti cheating wife... you’re right! They have some work to do! It Ian what it is, and I’m trying to drive a point home. Trying give the unfiltered male perspective is not congruent to being anti female..

And there are TONS of examples where the WS gives an AP things, sexual or emotional, that the loyal BS was denied. If you would like I can compile a list.. but we both know that’s not needed... just look for yourself.

And to top it off, I would give the SAME exact advice to WH!! It just so happens that from the betrayed perspective, I was a Man, a BH, betrayed by a WW. It’s a perspective I understand.

[This message edited by nicenomore at 10:13 PM, April 3rd (Tuesday)]

I do not believe someone should demand. Get out of the marriage, she has shown you how she values. Do not become an angry hurtful person. She is not worth it.

That said, it is equally disturbing that any wayward behavior is justified in any way. To say that the affair is a result of the BH not meeting the WW needs is shocking.

If the wayward does not have empathy you are wasting your time.

I've got some questions for the BHs here, if they don't mind answering them (whatever ones y'all want to).

What was the sex like when you were first dating your WWs?

Did sex change when you got married or did it stay the same?

What was the dynamic of sex like between you two before the A?

What were your concerns around sex prior to the A?

What were her concerns around sex prior to the A?

For those who mention anal: Had you two ever tried it together before? Had you ever done it before meeting her? Had she ever done it before meeting you?

Has your wife ever been sexually assaulted, abused, or harassed in her life? Has she ever been called names or shamed for being sexual before she became a cheater?

Were you both of similar backgrounds in terms of sexual experiences when you met, or was there a marked difference between you two?

Has she been remorseful for betraying you?

What does she think of herself now, post-A?

What do you think of her now, post-A?

I'm not asking these to create judgments or blame. I am asking to get a better understanding of background. When BHs say that their wives aren't giving them what they gave the OMs, I don't care at all about the OMs in that picture. Instead, it makes me wonder if she has something stopping her from being uninhibited with you, and what it is. Understanding those challenges could be the start to building something healthier between you two, or her working through challenges that might have been around much longer than her infidelity.

It's also possible that she's selfish. That's not a female thing. That's a wayward thing. In that case, if she is, please refrain from making this a male vs female thing. Making this discussion male vs female at all tends to immediately put women on the defensive. And I'm pretty sure most of us are on this thread because we genuinely want to help and understand.

tl;dr Understanding her sexual hang-ups, if she has any, might be a good first step to working through them both together and her alone, if you decide it's worth it to try.

This same advice would apply to husbands as well. Low libido in men, sexual assault, abuse, and harassment, shaming, are underreported issues that many men face too.

And AGAIN, I am not putting any of this on the BSs. I am recommending getting a clearer picture so you can see the part that's holding things up, the part that needs healing.

Silver- I’m one of the BH turned MH. I own my shit and despite what was done to me, I recognize that I failed too. Perhaps I’ll never see it as on the same level as what my WW did first, but nonetheless, I know I did wrong too.

Let me answer your questions:

Sex when first dating was phenomenal

Sex speed down slightly as we got more comfortable in the relationship and M, but I know that’s natural... still good, but instead of daily, maybe 3-4x a week.

Our dynamic was great. Both high libido.. and o was always an attentive lover. Occasional quickies for release, but mostly I put in foreplay, teased and flirted, and took care of her needs before being selfish on my own needs. She even admitted this many times.

I really didn’t have many concerns around sex prior to the A. We really were pretty compatible. About the only difference was that I preferred morning sex and she preferred night sex... didn’t seem like a huge deal and we always compromised.

I THOUGHT we communicated well. Talked often/ texted, never judged each other’s feelings, and she always told me I was a great lover... totally got thrown for a loop

We pretty much tried everything..anal included, but it was never my favorite. I mean, my birthday and Christmas were special occasions where she’d offer it, but I probably took her up on it 1x a year. She never expressed desire for it, and I didn’t push it. I preferred oral and vaginal sex, and sexy outfits, occasional public sex to keep it steamy. I hadn’t plenty of anal sex with a previous GF, because she loved it, and I was happy to oblige. It wasn’t what got my motor running though. She had tried it too, but it wasn’t a regular thing for her, not until her A.

I truly think the OM just used her for his fantasies, and she did it for the attention. Doesn’t mean it didn’t feel like a kick in the nuts for me... I think the part I struggled with most was the territoriality of it all.. she gave away what was mine, while I had been faithful. Felt a deep need to reclaim, even if anal wasn’t my favorite. Remarked my territory if you will. Resolidify in my mind and hers that she was mine, every part, including what the OM tried to take.

My exW was not an CSA victim, but did have a reallly tough foo situation. Uncaring parents, and an abusive ex. I really beleive now that she’s was an insecure wounded girl who sought validation. I know it was never about my shortcomings now, and in a wierd way, her ultimate loyalty was to me, but she’s didn’t understand how damaging the cheating was. She threw herself at me, offered me anything I wanted, and I beleive, was always still attracted to me sexually. In her desperation, she even gave me my fantasy and had a FFM threesome with me to help try and make it up to me. She utterly submitted after dday because I think it sunk in what she had done. This is hard for me to say, but she even offered me to hit her and tie her up to punish her and forgive her we. So fucked up... and this is when I realized how broken she really was. Of course I didn’t do it. Extremely codependent on me.

We were pretty equally sexually experienced going into the relationship, maybe slightly weighed in my favor, but not by much. I had slept with 15 girls, and she had slept with 9 guys. Certainly not virgins, but not exactly got around either.

She was utterly remorseful. And it was her remorse, giving, and willingness to please that gave us a fighting chance. I Trully beleieve ahe would never cheat again, and ultimately it was My inability to forgive, not her effort, that did is in. She was a model WW in the short R we had. I wasn’t a model BH. Her cheating aside, she’s was an amazing woman. My pride couldn’t allow me To stay

It’s been 9 years now since her A. She’s never gotten over it, or us, or me. I feel bad for her now . She still tells muial froends she wants me back. She’s dated occasionally, but no serious relationship. She got drunk recently and proceeded to send me the most heartfelt fucked up message about missing me, and having nothin without me.

I feel really bad for her, but then I remember how she disrespected me, and It fades. Oh well. I’m conflicted in how I feel about her. It’s like warmth and ice. I hate her for what she did, i pity her for her struggles now that I have moved on, and honestly? Part of me feels good that she still wants me back, given everything I did too.

^ Thank you for sharing your journey, NNM. Sounds like you have a lot of insights into how it all went. I hope you're in a better, happier place now.

I am, but I have my scars... I still sleep with one eye open metaphorically, but my gf is also a former BS, so she does too...we have that in common lol.

She knows I post here and occasionally reads... maybe I’ll tell her to sign up.

Glad some of you got my joke earlier

Back to the first post:

Anyways it's just a feeling - a feeling - really not more - but it's there like a melancholy...

Someone said

"What we want is the WW to recognize how god damn damaging it is to our egos and sexual value as men, to gladly and enthusiastically give an OM what we have always wanted and asked for, but been denied."

Same feeling when you like a girl, really like her, want good things for her, but she friend zones you and then chooses to screw some guy who doesn't give a crap about her.

That too is just a feeling. And on some rational level you know that you have this and that which the other guy doesn't. But deep deep deep down internally...well it's negative. Do women get that?

[This message edited by redhorse at 12:04 AM, April 4th (Wednesday)]

That too is just a feeling. And on some rational level you know that you have this and that which the other guy doesn't. But deep deep deep down internally...well it's negative. Do women get that?

Of course we do. Many of us have had the same experiences, the same feelings towards our partner. It's not solely a male experience.

In my case, what I've realized is, I don't feel like Mr Silver is mine. The mistake I made was in ever thinking he was. But I should have taken him at his word when he said that he didn't like the idea of people owning people, so he would never "belong" to me and I would never belong to him. "Let a bird go and it will fly free... If it returns to you, it was always yours," is what he would say. Now he says I'm his mate. Now he says he wishes I were a virgin when we met. But when I ask him if he wishes he were a virgin too, he goes silent. He doesn't. He has double standards for us. That's not a male or a female thing. That's a wayward thing. Or possibly just an asshole thing, plain and simple.

Not so simple. Because we love them, or we love part of them, or we love who we thought they were, or we loved what we had with them, however fleeting.

The other women, both the ones who came before me and the ones during our relationship, got the best of my husband. Or rather, he shared with them the things I desperately wanted him to share with me instead. He's never been honest with me, so I don't have confirmation if he had sex with any of them. But I have more than enough confirmation that he was unfaithful.

Sex matters to me too. It matters a great deal - whenever people describe a male's typical need for sex, they're describing me too, except that I'm called a slut or a whore or otherwise shamed for it. Mr Silver outright told me he did everything new and exciting sexually long before he ever met me, so there was nothing new or exciting left for us to do, save me having his baby. That was the only thing special sexually about me to him: me having his child, my precious Lil Silver. When I asked him what was special about our sex itself, he was furious with me, saying that I was disrespectful to what it means to be a mother, that that should be enough for me. Being compared unfavorably to his other lovers, be they past or present, fucking hurt. It hurt the most for me.

It's that we feel the OW or OM is more special to our WSs than we are - whether sexually, emotionally, or otherwise - that hurts so many of us so much. Do you relate to this, Redhorse?

RO

I’m glad you got some but I think you still have the same problem as yesterday. Just because she gave you some doesn’t mean you can throw aside your concerns.

Don’t get caught up in the sex. Enjoy it but keep your head straight .. no pun intended.

Western.

Okay j/t here...

You are really an antiquated pos. You made an agreement to own your current wife’s body. Is she your slave. This is a bunch of bullshit and you know she’s not going to believe you. If she wants she will withhold and even cheat on you. You can’t control anyone. I hope you are ready for disappointment.

But honestly I don’t care since I’m a feminist twat

^^^

Acknowledging the problem is the first step in changing for the better.

Acknowledging the problem is the first step in changing for the better.

YES! This. ^

I'll add something. How I decided to work on our sexual issues... I told Mr Silver how I felt. He didn't always take it well. I would try different ways of telling him. I would tell him that, specifically, I wasn't telling him this to try to punish him - rather, that because I'm his wife, I want him to know everything about me. I'd rather he know what I'm thinking than not. Like I said, he got defensive a lot. But over the years, he has changed.

Random example (and possibly tmi, my apologies): one of our first times together, he compared my anatomy to one of his past lovers. He made it sound like he could get her off easily, while my anatomy was "weird" by comparison. It also marked the last time he went down on me for several years. He kept expecting me to go down on him, but wouldn't do the same for me. And he rejected me a lot sexually. Said he had already done everything, so sex wasn't as important to him as it was when he was younger (he was only 27-28 when he was saying this). He was very stubborn, but so was I.

Just a few months ago, after years of no interest, he started going down on me. It only lasted a couple of months, but I'm hoping he'll regain interest in the future. I was deeply grateful when he did that with me, although I also struggled with feeling like I did not deserve to feel so good (a combination of past and continuing abuse, and my mental illness - I have VERY low self-esteem - and like I've said before, I've been shamed for my libido). I felt sad when he stopped. I was quite moody. But I rethink it: what if something's happened to him psychologically? What if he associates it with something that causes him pain? I won't ever pressure him to go down on me if he doesn't want to. I'll mention a few times how much I enjoyed it when he did that, but I won't pressure him. Instead, though, I would like to get to the root of the issue: what happened to him? Who broke him and his sexuality? What is he struggling to recover from? And how can I help?

There are factors about him that I need to be mindful of, and that I need to have compassion for. He was abused as a child. And he's been sexually assaulted before. Among other predators, that lover whose anatomy he compared me unfavorably to was his TA. He was freshly graduated from high school, and she was in her 40s. If I told the story, we'd be here all night and I'd break my fingers... Suffice to say, she preyed on him. And he never processed it until a few years ago, when his therapist called it for what it was. My point is... Mr Silver has a lot of healing to do. If I were to demand things of him, rather than talk and try to get both of us to open up, then it might recreate some very unhealthy dynamics he's been exposed to before. It might remind him of the abuse that he's endured. So, like DragnHeart said, I've needed to be patient. It's not been easy. But it's not solely in the interest of our sex life. It's for Mr Silver's well-being. I want him to learn healthy boundaries. I want him to feel healthy. I certainly don't want to create more traumatic memories through pressuring him into sex.

He told me once, when our son was a couple of months old and he was choosing porn over me, that I creep him out, more than any other girl he's ever met. That HURT. Especially because I'm terrified of becoming like my abusers, since I have a high sex drive. In retrospect, I should have seen that for the warning sign it was. He's been through things that aren't right.

We've both been through things. So it's better to take our time and be open emotionally with each other, in order to mend and heal from our histories of sexual abuse and assault. It goes beyond that: we need to heal large parts of ourselves. If I care for him, I will take that time. I will not rush him.

Pardon my rambling. It might be worth it to read what I wrote with your WW in mind, especially if she's a sexual abuse survivor. Sex is personal. Abuse perverts our natural sex drives, and so does shaming. Again, NOT excusing anyone's wayward. But I am saying, that your wayward might be in more pain than he or she knows how to articulate. If this is your situation, you need more support beyond just sex. It is *more* than reasonable to ask your WW to attend IC and/or MC as part of a condition for R. The purpose of IC or MC is to build healthy habits. Having sex with your spouse is a healthy habit. So maybe IC or MC will help them figure out their roadblock and how to address it/them, so they can be your teammate in marriage emotionally, sexually, mentally.

And YES, you NEED to be validated too. It is HARD to not be able to have sex with the person you love. It is hard to deal with the physical and emotional cravings. It is hard to deal with the aftermath of the A, all the realizations about how they treated you with less consideration than you deserved. There is room to feel that way. It's important to be truthful to yourself, to feel. It's also important to keep in mind that the picture might be more complicated than it appears. There are no easy answers.

So how can you ease your own pain, if you need more time to explore what's going on with your more reluctant partner? How can you take care of yourself?

It's not fair. None of this is fair. The thing I keep in mind is, health is #1. It's our partner's responsibility to take care of themselves... but as their spouse, if you're committed to R, it's our responsibility to support them.

I don't have answers, and I'm sorry for that. Menz here, I can hear your pain. Please keep sharing it. Just don't let it blind you to the different-from-yours, often complicated truths that some women might be juggling with regards to their sexualities, especially if she's a sexual abuse survivor and you aren't. Thank you.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 3:38 AM, April 4th (Wednesday)]

And there are TONS of examples where the WS gives an AP things, sexual or emotional, that the loyal BS was denied. If you would like I can compile a list.. but we both know that’s not needed... just look for yourself.

This wouldn't be such a hot topic if it weren't so common. When I first posted my story, and the story of my W's A, I had a few male posters PM me and, in so many words, tell me to "get ready for it", with the "it" being the sexual details including stuff that she'd always told me were off limits. At the time, I shrugged it off; but, as the details came out, they were dead on right. Things that were denied me for our entire relationship were on offer for the OM within weeks. And that's typical, we see it here in story after story. And I return the favor occasionally, when I see a BH posting, I'll sometimes PM them and give them the same message (which often turns out to be the truth). It's not 100% of the time, no, but it's often enough that any BH needs to ready themselves for it. And it's a short list; it's anal, blowjobs, swallowing and frequency. Those are the ones that really blow up the BH's world, or, speaking personally, blew up mine.

The thread was pretty good for a while, but true colors are showing and the anti-female vibe is loud and clear. And that's all she wrote.

I can see why you think that, but that's really not my intention, and I doubt other posters intentions either. As I've said many times, this knife cuts both ways, I'd say the same thing to a WH who went down on his AP every time and refused to do that with his W; that's not R, that's your W staying because she has to, and she will never heal without you fixing this. It's just that, as is made obvious in threads like this, this is more commonly a male issue, and IMHO, it's also more important to many male posters. We do have a few women who've posted that they are in similar situations, for which I am very appreciative, but, it's just an issue that slants male because of the inherent male/female sexual dynamics. My wife could ask me for anything and I'd do it with her, she knows that, and she's known that our entire relationship. And I could not/can not do the same; and that's typical, not casting judgement or assigning blame, but it's just the way most men/women work.

3)Yes some WW are desperate to reconcile. So are some WH. Why is this a stunning point to you ? It is common sense and we have seen it thousands of times on these boards, so what is your point ?

Pretty much my only reason for staying engaged in these threads is my belief that yes, there are a lot of WW's out there desperate to reconcile who are getting terrible advice regarding how to do that. My W got that advice, both on sites like this and from her therapist. And it's commonly given; "do it when your ready", "don't feel pressured", "it's your body". Which sound great on the face of it, but are also nearly 100% going to torpedo R for most men. The right advice is "do it, and then do a lot more, fake it till you make it, and try to help your H heal sexually". And that's not the common discourse, it's just not, and I can promise you, there are at least some marriages out there that ended because someone told a WW something like this and she thought to herself "well, I really don't feel like giving my H a BJ, so I'm not gonna", and somehow never felt like it, and eventually that man tired of the suffering and pulled the trigger on D. I can nearly promise you, no WH woke up today and thought "You know, I feel like going in and signing a post-nup", or alternately for any WS "I feel like typing up a timeline" or "I feel like asking my spouse how he/she feels and letting them unload on me". Nope, not a single one, but we give them the right advice; suck it up, do it, and your marriage stands a chance of getting better. Don't do it, and you'll wind up D'd. It's your choice, but this is what needs to happen to "fix things". Except sex, that's the message we (as a group, and IMHO) get wrong for WS's; "do it if it feels right" is exactly the last thing a WS needs to hear who really wants to help her BS heal, especially if he/she is highly sexually driven (as H's, in general, often are).

If you must know my views on women’s rights might astound you. I’m pro equal pay, equal work rights, pro abortion rights, pro sexual equality (very against slut shaming), and generally pro women. I have no right to tell any woman how to live her life, and I support feminists fighting for equality.

As am I. What I am, also, however, is "anti-snowflake". As in, we are equal in all regards, not up until the point where it's no longer convenient to be equal. I can't tell you how many times I was told, or I've seen other's told that my WW is "damaged" and I need to let her heal from her A. That "pushing for" the sex she gave the OM will "damage" her and push back her healing. Well, here's my response. "RUBBISH". She wasn't damaged at all spreading her ass for the OM on a semi-hourly basis. She wasn't some "weak little women" then. She was banging his goddamn brains out, truth be told, as often as he could get it up, she was on it. And now, suddenly at the end of the A, she's a weak, damaged thing that needs kid gloves with me, the man she married, about her sexuality? Nope, that's as shocking a double standard as I've seen in recent history, and it's so common here (and in society) that it's really insulting to me. Equal rights mean equal; not "equal when I want them to be, more when I want them to be, and less when I want them to be". Women have agency, and with agency comes responsibility. You, WW, used that agency to bang the OM through the bed, as is your right, but you're not going to come home and claim that your damaged by the actions that YOU set in motion.

I do not believe someone should demand. Get out of the marriage, she has shown you how she values. Do not become an angry hurtful person. She is not worth it.

That said, it is equally disturbing that any wayward behavior is justified in any way. To say that the affair is a result of the BH not meeting the WW needs is shocking.

Which is the underlying purpose of this thread. Yes, a BS can "demand it" and might get it. But that destroys it for them, it's no longer special, it's because "they have to". The purpose of this thread is so that WS's can see/read that this matters and do these things BEFORE they are demanded. That's when they matter, that's the choice that we want our WS's to have, and we want them to choose us.

Sex matters to me too. It matters a great deal - whenever people describe a male's typical need for sex, they're describing me too, except that I'm called a slut or a whore or otherwise shamed for it.

Thank you for saying this, and it is wrong and dismissive of me to make the entirely a male issue. It's not; but it's typically male, and I, of course, being in this situation (and having most of my male friends tell me the same of their marriages) become a bit myopic about the broader picture. I do have a question though, who calls you a slut for this? I've NEVER met a man who called a women he loved a slut because she was sexually aggressive or wanted to have sex with him. About the "worst" I've ever heard is a man say to me "She's gonna kill me, I can't keep up" with a huge smile and the look of extreme sanctification on his face. Not to be too blunt, but I think a lot of this "slut shaming" is woman on woman, as well as "general society", as in, no one has ever said anything to you about it, but you "feel like" it's wrong because there are too many Disney movies about romance out there that setup a totally unrealistic expectation of what happens between 2 people who love each other in the bedroom. What happens in the bedroom looks like a lot more like porn than it does "When Harry met Sally" and maybe women are inherently shamed because of what "sex" actually looks like in practice? IDK, but I'd love to hear who and why you feel shamed by for having a high sex drive to perhaps understand it better.

I do have a question though, who calls you a slut for this? I've NEVER met a man who called a women he loved a slut because she was sexually aggressive or wanted to have sex with him.

Then, you must have an amazing group of male friends. I envy you.

My father told me sex was for men and emotional attachments were for women. My grandfather called me a slut for bragging about escaping my abusive ex. 4 out of the 5 men I had sexual relations with prior to meeting Mr Silver treated me very poorly; among other things, they were very selfish lovers and LAUGHED at me when I asked for what I wanted. One was openly abusive. Misogyny was a large part of them treating me badly, even though my sex drive was greater than theirs. Mr Silver said I was creepy because my sex drive was too high and assumed I *had* to sleep around because my drive is high (he is the *only* man I've touched, kissed, slept with since we got together). But he outright told me I couldn't even be polite to men, because then I was leading them on (the man he was speaking of, by the way, had sexually assaulted me - in fact, being a survivor of sexual assault taught me the most about slut-shaming, no matter if I said no or tried to get away from the abuser or outright said in advance that I *was not* interested). I've heard posters here say that they would sleep with a 'slut' but never marry her... Sentiments I've heard expressed amongst men in my life, and women condemning women as you've said. What I have learned is this: I am worthless to people. Because I've had sex, I'm even more worthless to people.

About the "worst" I've ever heard is a man say to me "She's gonna kill me, I can't keep up" with a huge smile

I would *LOVE* it if Mr Silver said this to me.

Instead he calls me creepy, rejects me frequently (and for 11 months, rejecting me 13 out of 14 days, while watching porn 6 of those days - yes, I actually marked it on the calendar ), and for the longest time would burst out laughing whenever I started to have an orgasm. Sorry to be TMI, but there's really no way I can humiliate myself more than I already have. He would say he was ticklish (he'd come first, usually because he got a blowjob first and then PIV, whereas he hadn't helped me "warm up" with foreplay), and he laughed almost every time... So I've stopped being able to have total orgasm with him. Plus, now that he enjoys the anal so much, it's the ONLY way he can finish. And I feel like a failure if I can't get him off.

I probably didn't answer your question, did I? Let me try to recall more clearly. It gets so muddled for me - shame comes from everywhere.

Did I mention he outright confirmed that I'm not as good as his other lovers? Yeah, if he wanted to destroy my self-esteem, he succeeded beyond both our wildest dreams.