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I agree with Tx, oldtruck and rideitout. I love Rideitouts passion and agree with 100 percent of what he and D1 says.

Dragn. It seems like you were trying to equate the watward and the betrayed. That is unfair. The Wayward needs to do the heavy lifting. Including in the sex area.

Rideitout. Losing your sexual prime prime while your wife was in the affair is just horrible

I guess from my CSA I don't place sex that high on my needs list. I know my WS does. He would put it up there with food and water. The pressure my WS put on me for sex throughout our M pushed me in the opposite direction. Our libidos have been mismatched from go! And we BOTH had an A (he has had many). I feel one of the reasons the WW may do things with the AP that they do not do with the BS is because it is sex with a NEW person. Sex for me has been different with every partner I've been with.

I know that when my WH did try something new with me (that he most likely did with his A partners) I didn't like it. Be careful what you wish for. Do you REALLY want what the AP got?

After my WH had his first A that killed whatever libido I had left until my A then it perked back up, but I think it was because it was new. Eventually that would have waned and I would be right back where I was. Was the sex with my AP better... no. It's all so complicated. Libidos are complicated I know mine is. I still think it is up to the WS to make the BS feel stable, appreciated and attractive again. If they are not doing that what else is there?

I didn't have to say anything. ....It means more to me that he offered the phone than it would to have to ask for it.

... And there it is!

The pressure my WS put on me for sex throughout our M pushed me in the opposite direction.

I know it's my trigger thing, but I am going to say it again. We are people, not sex machines. We have feelings, needs, wants that have nothing to do with sex. I am not sure that we ever can or should jump at sex to earn something. As someone said earlier, that idea raises red flags and feels like a call to arms.

In my estimate, very few WW do this to reconcile. That's why there are only a few participants in this thread. It may sound great, but it's unrealistic and they know it. So those BH base their reconciliation on a more well-rounded approach.

To each his own.

If a WW agrees and performs, great.

But most can't.

And there it is!

Yes exactly. But if I had to demand it or sneak around to look at it like I've done so many times before, then it means nothing. But getting g to this point where he offered it up without me even saying a word about it took time patience and alot of communication. It wasn't an overnight thing for him to get to this. Had I been demanding of this offer up of his own accord when he didn't get it then we would have just been setting up to fail. And is probably why it took so damn long because I was trying to pound it into his head instead of properly communicating my needs.

And...My pho e hates me. The Sumit message button is gone...(preview is gone too...WTF....)

Hopefully I can get this to post. I pray for everyone here healing. No matter what that means for you. I just pray we all heal.

I pray for everyone here healing. No matter what that means for you.

Right there with you, DragnHeart.

We don't have to agree. We can agree to disagree. But attainable peace and recovery is everyone's goal.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 7:03 PM, April 3rd (Tuesday)]

Every minute that a WW spends communicating with her AP: texting, talking on the phone, emailing, sneaking glances across the workfloor, even thinking about him....every second of that time is in preparation for the next time they can see each other and have crazy, animal sex. They'll spend hours on this "foreplay", telling each other what they're going to do to each other, how many times and for how long. And the anticipation is maddening for them. Then They see each other, and they attack.

"Oh, but my affair wasn't about sex. It was how he made me feel. He validated me"

Bull. Shit.

I saw the texts, the emails. I know good and freaking well what your A was about. Sex. Nothing else.

If that effort can't be duplicated for me, if the passion can't be felt for me, then she can take her false R ass anywhere else but around me, bc I won't give her a second thought. And I didn't. I now have the most awesome wife ever. And XWW? She's miserable with AP. Stuck with him and dreading the future bc he just asked her to marry him and she couldn't say no bc she was scared he'd kick her out. Ahhhh....sweet justice.

My daughters say that he's mean to her, emotionally and mentally and verbally abusive. Totally disrespectful to her. They say their mom is always crying bc of him. And I hope he makes her cry every day for the rest of her life.

[This message edited by GoldenR at 7:14 PM, April 3rd (Tuesday)]

If that effort can't be duplicated for me, if the passion can't be felt for me, then she can take her false R ass anywhere else but around me, bc I won't give her a second thought. And I didn't. I now have an the most awesome wife ever. And XWW? She's miserable with AP.

Do not doubt me: that ^^^ is what she deserves.

And that is why many men don't reconcile and many who try fail. It is because the WW trashed them by having the affair, and then fails to see the damage they cause and adds to the damage by being territorial with their bodies in regards to the BS when they weren't so territorial with the OM.

Then they play down the concept of sex and expects the BS to accept the vanila sex he always got and if he objects, then he is somehow abusive or accused of treating the WW as 'property' I call such de-emphasizing of sexual relations when the BS needs it to be weak. RIDEITOUT hit a grand slam on his recent posts

Ok so i had some hot sex last night

All better now

Never mind

That's awesome, Redhorse! What led up to it? Was it something you and your wife talked about in advance, or was it spontaneous? Did it feel like you guys were connected? Any mind movies? Hope this will be the first night of many for you guys!

^^^^^^^

Ahhhhh-hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Love it!

Awesome!

Dude!

good stuff Redhorse

"Question for the "fake it till you make it", "No denying BH what AP got" crowd:

My AP got 3 months of super enthusiastic sex because he would engage in kissing and give me oral sex before we were intimate every time (things that BH never placed value on), at what point have I given BH what AP got? Is it 3 after 3 months of daily sex ? Or is it the number of times we had sex? Or is it the number of times I'm equally turned on by the same behaviors? Do you see now that "fair" may NEVER be achieved by a BS that is more concerned with HIS sexual gratification? GOOD SEX IS NOT CURRENCY. It is not payment for bad behavior. It takes TWO parties trying to get their partner off. A BH that wants porn star sex but is a selfish lover may NEVER get what they think they want. A woman can put on high heels and read dirty stories and take meds that shorten her life, and none of that fixes a partner with a "me first!" attitude."

Two different issues.

Evidently this WW wants porn star sex. She should

get it.

Does your BH know you had better sex with the OM?

If you want to upgrade your BH's performance it

is time to tell what you BH to do.

Patience and control. Tell him you want to have

great sex with him. Tell him the first thing you

need. He gets there then you add the next step.

Do not go past go, or collect $200 until he gets

each step conquered.

No reading of dirty stories or drugs involved.

Just talking, effort, time.

That’s great news Redhorse - I am happy to hear it.

I want all of us to have the sex lives we want - communication is key though. Otherwise, your wife might not realize that “duty” sex isn’t working for you. Passionate, hot, porn star sex isn’t hot if it is one sided either.

Good luck to all of you, I hope you get what you need.

And that is why many men don't reconcile and many who try fail. It is because the WW trashed them by having the affair, and then fails to see the damage they cause and adds to the damage by being territorial with their bodies in regards to the BS when they weren't so territorial with the OM.

I know this is going to trigger some, so I'll say it gently, I think that you're right. We all suggest, psychs suggest and most MC suggest doing whatever it takes to help your spouse heal. I could give the laundry list again, but some of those steps have huge potential repercussions. And none of those things were ever things that were done with the AP, they are purely a "punishment", they don't feel good, they just chastise the WS. And they are reasonable steps to help to help a BS heal and feel safe again, I fully support them.

But then sex comes along, and, I know I heard it from my MC, and I suspect many others have as well; "when she's ready" and "it's got to be on her terms" (speaking about my WW). Except that this is what I need to heal. I don't need a post-nup, I don't need phone tracking, I don't need her to say I'm sorry every day and ask me about my feelings. I need, I will not settle for less, her best sexually. And that's the thing that we're told, both here and IRL, is "off limits". I am sure that many a BH has heard this and thought to himself "f**k that" and walked. If my wife hadn't realized that was bad advice and followed it, yes, I would have walked. But that's the advice that WW's get, and in my estimation, it makes it impossible for a BH to reconcile. Yes, you can stay together, but R; I just don't know how anyone can get over that blow, and, if there are those reading who have, you are stronger than I and I applaud you. But it's just not going to work for me, and, from the sounds of this thread, for many other men either.

Imagine if MC (or us) told WH's that is was OK to continue to masturbate to the OW's pictures, just so long as he didn't actually contact her. I'm going to go out on a limb and say most/every BW here would say "well, that's complete s**t advice, I'd never heal if my WH was doing that; and it's a complete insult to me that he'd even call it "trying to" R while he was jerking off to the OW's pictures". That's kind of what I'm saying; we can all look at our individual bias, and say "he should be able to masturbate to her pictures, the BW should be able to get over that". Except she can't and won't. And I suspect women would be all over that advice as wrong headed and dangerous, because a lot of them are going to walk if their WH's keep at it with the OW's pictures.

That's what we're saying. Maybe it should be fine. It's just a picture. It's just sex, what's the big deal. Well, let me say, what I've learned for myself and from these threads, it's a HUGE deal for us, it is "the deal" in fact for me. There's no R without this, you can call it whatever you want, but this has to be fixed for me to heal; it's as important as NC to me. And I urge women who are looking and want to R to heed what I'm saying and what other men here are saying. We're not evil sex machines, most of us know we can go out and get any sex act we like. But we want them with YOU, and we want them to feel close to you and restore the connection that was broken by the A. It's not punishment, it's not "getting even", it's a way; the way in some cases, to get us to heal effectively from what was done during the A. You have every right to deny anyone sex, including your H. But denying it to him and expecting him to accept it and R; you don't have a right to that, and you don't have a right to complain if he decides to pull the plug over this and tell the world he's a sex crazed maniac. You messed up R, not him, because this is absolutely necessary for many of us to start down the road of getting better.

If this is true, and I think you may be right, then the WS needs to fake it well. Listen, admit it or not, come d-day, a lot of our WS's don't love us. The idea of sex with us is like "cheating" on the OM/OW, they don't want to even touch us, let along give us some great sex. But they better not say that crap, because, if they do, they are going to the curb, quickly and with much prejudice. The whole thing is "fake it" from d-day onward until the WS removes head of a** and realizes what they did. And that can take a long time, we all know that, sometimes too long, sometimes quickly, but it's almost never "at d-day".

But, "I don't find you attractive and would rather be with the OM/OW" when the BS feels safe enough to come to the WS for sex again; that IS NOT gonna go over well. Even if it's true (and I know it is, at least in some cases). Get over it, do it, and try to help your spouse heal. And it's not just sex; your BS could come to you and ask for a fancy dinner and the first thought might be "God, I wish my AP was going and not my BW". Too f-ing bad, fake it, because you made this bed of s**t, your feelings, sorry to say, are sick, twisted, and don't matter as much as your BS's feelings (which are real, far more intense, and caused by your f**ked up actions).

Rideitout, I'm curious, do you really want your WW to fake it with you?

Whether it is sex, or dinner, if my WH didn't want to do it with me, didn't find me attractive enough, I would want to know. I would find it highly insulting if he was faking being in love with me. To say 'fake it till you make it' is equal to saying 'what he/she doesn't know wont hurt". I have no patience for that. I want 100% authenticity. And I would not want hot sex if my WH had to pretend... however convincing he might be.

If my WH's first thought was "I wish I was going with AP" when I ask him out to dinner, I would prefer that he says so instead of faking his excitement about going out with me. It is about knowing the truth and making your choices. If your WW is faking it convincingly, she is denying you the choice to make decisions about your life based on truth.

yeah Rideitout, I am on JFO 98% of the time so I haven't seen you much but I have new found respect for you and your situation.

Look, I don't care about if people here yell at me or are triggered but every single post with thoughts I make are with intended consequences.

I am going to say something that may make closet feminists on this page cringe. When I got married to my current wife (not the one who cheated), we agreed my body was mine and hers and hers was hers and mine.

That aside, the way I see this entire argument as going is this since a few of the women posters suggested this

1) Noone claimed that they owned someone else's body

2) Noone was forcing anyone to have 'awesome sex' with them, but simply that they wanted and expected it after forgiving the cheater for their transgressions against their own marriage and against the abused spouse and btw yes, cheating is abuse.

However, everytime we have these threads a couple posters come forward with crap that is related to the above 2.

My opinion is this

1) If someone cheats, they don't deserve the marriage

2) If they are given the gift of reconciliation, they must earn it. Going back to the practices that you employed pre-affair are not enough if you gave the OM/OW more

3) If you love someone the most, you will make sacrifices and do what they want within reason but if you freely gave it to the OM/OW, then it must very well be within reason to give it to your BS who took back your sorry ass.

4) If one is offended by getting asked by the person who they made vows with but broke to do what they did for some stranger POS idiot, then they themselves have the issues that require relinquishing of the marriage.

5) Cheating has consequences. To those cheaters, suck it up and kiss your betrayed's ass. Or just leave and expect that they will hopefully own you in court.

The normal isn't going back and being 'even' and working on both of yourselves because one person was doing what they were supposed to be doing and the other was taking advanatge of that. Sure, after along period in reconciliation, maybe some people can say 'ok we're healed' and all is good. But not right away or within a few years. I would hate the hypocrite who would say that vanilla sex is ok for the BS in reconciliation but a post-nup is deserved. You see, I don't agree mostly in post-nups but I also wouldn't reconcile either. But treatment is critical in R's and a post-nup is ok and all but I better fell for special than the OM and sex is a main way to show it. Because most betrayed spouses were used for their stability and those qualities. The AP was fun. The betrayed spouse should have gotten the fun too and many times in R, they didn't. Look at Poor AO's case (God bless him and I pray for his struggles to end soon)

My view comes from this. 90% of the guys I know get little or no or vanilla sex from their wives. I hear about it every day. If their wife goes out and acts like Veronica Zemanova to another man and he forgives her after she stops, and she goes back to plain vanilla, it is an insult to him and his efforts to R. It's almost like they find us less attractive or unworthy.

I get what you are saying. It has to be when she's ready on on 'her terms' but she is the one who cheated and caused this mess and you could be divorced and having rockstar sex with some young hottie somewhere so while you wait for her, you are again sacrificing. One of my buds got divorced very quickly and before you knew it, he was banging a girlfriend 3 x hotter than his cheating ex-wife. THAT IS NOT ADVOCATING CHEATING, but it does show that the BS actually makes more sacrifices (a potentially more attractive, non-cheating girlfriend over an unloyal, maybe aging and resentful wife) in reconciling by not just staying with an unpredictable cheater but forgoing opportunities too.

Look, in the end, IMO, if they care about us, they wouldn't cheat. If they cheat and still somehow care about us, they would do for us any and everything they did for OM and more.

If I cheated on my wife and ended up towards divorce and she brought me back, I would give in to her very wishes. I would be the last one to say "hey this is my body, don't violate me". I would be thinking (but not saying) "how do you want it and where?" and I would let her command me because I let someone who meant jack squat command me and got off on it.

Fortunately, I am not a cheater and haven't cheated in 49 years.

Again, I love your fire but short of using force (which is illegal and morally reprehensible), the WW/WH better be walking on hot coals to appease, please and give thanks to the person who could have hammered them through a divorce suit which they deserved.

That's my point and I say it bluntly and really don't say it gently.

This was your best line right here from your last post (but not as good as the lines from earlier posts but this paints the picture)

"You have every right to deny anyone sex, including your H. But denying it to him and expecting him to accept it and R; you don't have a right to that, and you don't have a right to complain if he decides to pull the plug over this and tell the world he's a sex crazed maniac. You messed up R, not him, because this is absolutely necessary for many of us to start down the road of getting better."

I would phrase that line but also add that "you gave better sex to the man who should have never been allowed to touch you and that's what you are depriving your husband" and "that's what your BH needs to heal."

I wished more waywards would read this and take it to heart because many don't and it's so accurate.

One last statement. To those who say that you don't want it the same way a WW/WH gave it to the AP, if they did it everyway possible, are you giving up sex for the rest of your lives with the wayward ? Me ? I would strive to be the best.

JMO

[This message edited by Western at 9:41 PM, April 3rd (Tuesday)]