SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

But I am sorry, the kind of sex you are looking for frequently does not last forever. I wish it did. I blame porn. Easy porn has every man believing a "normal" sex life looks like that--from birth to death.

Lies. All lies.

Often they are lies; but the don't have to be. Everyone here who's still with their WS/BS can go to bed tonight and re-enact anything they want from any porn they've seen. I think that's the most troublesome aspect of it, people say "porn if fake", but.. It's not. Those are real people doing real things together that any of us can do without a moments notice right now. Porn isn't fake, the problem is it sets the bar really, really high for what "good sex" looks like (primarily for men, but also, some porn, for women). It's not missionary once a week with the lights off. It's wild, uninhibited stuff; things we know intellectually we can do, probably know that our H/W's want us to do, and decide not to. And that's the thing; it's so "in your face" now. W won't give you a BJ, or husband won't give oral sex? 100 years ago, you probably would never talk with that about a single person alive, and would never really think about it beyond "what if". Today, you can see 100,000 different options for oral sex; and actually watch people who are paid a few hundred dollars happily do things that your H/W refuses you. That's the real problem with porn, something I do defend, but also something I don't feel is without downside. And the downside is that porn shows all of us what sex looks like when two people are both really "into" each other and willing to explore boundaries together. And then, of course, we compare it to our sex lives, and yes, it's often lacking.

There's a reason that many posters say things like "He/she was having "porn star sex" with the AP every time they met". And, relating it back to this thread, in my eyes, it's not because either of them watched a lot of porn before they met up; it's because "porn star sex" is the kind of sex that people who are really attracted to each other have.

I hear ya dude. That's why I never even looked back after my WW had her A. She was nothing but dust in the rear view mirror.

As for my sex life now it has drastically improved. Every six months I fly to Budapest or Prague or a couple of other European cities and hire a couple of "housekeepers" not hookers who then return to Malta with me and keep the apartment clean and help me out in other ways. After six months I change out housekeepers so as to not get overly attached.

I pay them a nice sum each month. They are happy, they live on a nice sunny rock, there are no strings attached, I do not force myself on them they can go do whatever they want but need to keep me updated. Just saying that you don't have to live like that. It is quite the rush to wake up in the morning and have a couple of beautiful women walking around with basically nothing covering them.(Sorry if that comes across as perverted, it was not my intention)

My EXWW's libido who cares, fuck her enjoy the freezing winters in Canada bitch. I look at it as time to enjoy life myself. As my mom said when I had my 63 SW Vette - "You know they are only going out with you and sleeping with you cause you have that car". I just smiled back and said ya I know. No way would I live the way you are.

[This message edited by notanotherchance at 5:29 AM, April 2nd (Monday)]

Notanotherchance,

I do not even know where to begin on how messed up and demeaning and angry and sexist this ^^^ all sounds. But if you are happy ("enjoy the freezing winters in Canada bitch"?) then more power to you.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 7:52 AM, April 2nd (Monday)]

I'm not sure how it's demeaning or sexist; women are free to do the same if they so desire and don't even need to fly 1/2 way around the world or pay a "nice sum of money" to do it. Is it demeaning that he's mostly/entirely interested in the sex with these women? Because, the way I see it, at least he's honest, rather than the many AP's out there who are happy to lie about it and "steal" the sex rather than pony up and pay for it. It's a lot more honorable, IMHO, than what many do in their day to day dealing with the opposite sex.

Or is it wrong because he knows what he values women for (sex) and isn't afraid to say it? Because, again, that's kind of typical for men, it's just how many of us are.

Look at it this way, at least your not being valued for money (which many men and some women are, including notanotherchance). That's really dehumanizing, it's just a bank account balance that has someone interested in you. At least if it's your appearance, skill in bed, or something else like that it's actually unique to you. Money, it's completely ethereal and someone else will always have more. Try getting on that treadmill.

I told him more power to him. Go for it.

It really messes with a man's self worth when his W not only had a sexual relationship with another man, but then she has no sexual desire for him. That's the situation I'm in. Despite the fact that I'm a good provider, a good, attentive husband who works hard, takes care of his family, etc... my wife is not attracted to me. And I know the saying, "alpha fucks, beta bucks." I don't consider myself a beta. I'm somewhere right in the middle of all that nonsense.

Many Women don't understand how much this can hurt a man. It's like no matter how good life gets, there's always this little asterisk in the back of my mind that says "she still doesn't want to fuck you."

Notanotherchance, I commend you. There is nothing wrong with what you're doing. Nobody is taking advantage of anyone in your situation. It sounds fun, but I don't think I could ever do anything like that.

Are the men in this situation keeping themselves fit?

At the end years of our first marriage my then W did not have sex with me. She did not say this, but she had no desire for me because I did not romance her, she resented me, and I was fat.

The years between have been bizarre, and I won’t detail them.

But we are now divorced and living together. She tells me that she loves me but is not in love with me, and will leave once she rebuilds her financial life. But she initiates sex with me nearly daily.

Why? Perhaps it is partly her being in her forties. Perhaps it is because I treat her better. But I also think it is partly due to me working out religiously for the past five years.

At a subconscious level, a woman is designed to sexually respond to a fit man, just as a man is designed to respond to a beautiful woman. The higher conscious can alter that base animal response. But it’s there.

So: Are you doing your part? Staying fit? Making her feel attractive and special?

[This message edited by PlanC at 9:38 AM, April 2nd (Monday)]

Have to agree with owningit, it's harsh but it's the truth. If it's not divorcable for him then he just has to put up with it. No amount of suggestions and acting and moaning about what the wife should do is going to help.

She's cool not having sex, redhorse is not cool with it, just "bummed out".

So: Are you doing your part? Staying fit? Making her feel attractive and special?

I feel like I am. I'm probably in the top 5% for my age; 32" waist, work out often, keep myself put together.

The 2nd part, I hope so, I think so, but, who knows? You're right, and I do agree with you, a guy who was fit and in great shape when he married who's put on 100lbs and doesn't move except work and the fridge has a lot less room to complain, we all know that "fit" is attractive to both sexes; if you're not fit, then you're intentionally or not, pushing your W or H away. Sad to say it, but that's just how we're all wired.

Many Women don't understand how much this can hurt a man. It's like no matter how good life gets, there's always this little asterisk in the back of my mind that says "she still doesn't want to fuck you."

It's not a "little asterisk", at least not for me. Just about everything else in my life pales in comparison to that measure; sure, you have a good job, you're in shape, you take care of business, and you make the time to spend it with those who matter to you. None of that matters at all, at least not to me, if my W doesn't want to sleep with me. It's the number 1 thing I think about, and it's the most important thing to me in my day to day happiness. I know that sound terrible and shallow, but it is; and I doubt at this point I'll ever change it (about myself). Sex is literally THE purpose of life; yes, there's more to it than that, but it's literally the only thing that we must do if we hope to continue our genes forward.

Notanotherchance:

Do these women know your intentions at the time of contracting? Do they know you will expect sex? Do they know you will replace them after six months? When you replace them after such a short period, how do you ensure that they transition back to their old lives without loss of status or fear or discomfort? Is the money you pay them sufficient to make up for the loss of their opportunity to find a man who would love them? Is your choice moral not just from your situation but theirs as well?

Sex is literally THE purpose of life

Rideitout, I am not criticizing your truth. We value what we value. But I cannot name one female friend out of the many that I have who would say this. I can't speak for all women, but I don't know of any who feel sex is the purpose of life.

Guess maybe it shows how far apart we are, the Mars and Venus thing? IDK.

In fact i think my WW is happier than she's ever been.

Questions for Redhorse. Do you feel the same ? People who think they are going to die and make a full recovery often have a zest for life they did not have before. M have a similar dynamic. Was D ever on the table ? What have you two done to heal the M ?

Other than trying to talk to her about it, what else have you tried ? Has she done any IC ? Especially one with experience in sexual trauma? If I had to guess that is a lot of your issue right there.

Have you guys done any MC ? Read any books ?

Can you write her a letter explaining this in great detail so that she can read the entire thought without getting defensive or arguing with you?

I get the impression that you resent your W over this. Resentments don't go away the grow and fester until they can't be ignored. Co-dependcy makes it worse (not saying you, just informational)

One thing that I think that the other gender half of the equation misses is that while "obligation sex" is still sex, Is not the kind of sex that helps you feel close to your W. It does not provide a vulnerable place to feel love from your spouse. It relegates it to another item on a task list like doing laundry or mowing the lawn. The perfunctory release is not the reason why this bothers him. If it were he can meet that need without another person. KWIM ? He isn't looking at this as just a means to an end to meet his physical needs. He wants to feel close to his wife and he wants to know that she wants that too. That is the part he feels is lacking. He feels that he is due some effort in this space just as he has worked to put effort into areas of the M even though they likely were not comfortable for him. He feels he is not worth the effort as his wife won't go outside of her comfort zone despite it proven that she can.

You want to know that your W is into you, in that way. All obligation sex does is reinforce the belief that she is not. You know she has the ability to, but she doesn't feel that you are worth the same level of effort as her AP was. It is hard not to feel less than important to your W. You want to sex is met with a sigh and an a "OK, let's get it over with." That kills a husbands self esteem if that is all that is offered in the bedroom. A's make it so much worse.

We have to watch WS actions because we can't take their words at face value anymore. Well this action is telling Redhorse that his W is happy with the status quo and she isn't willing to do any work here. His sexual confidence was destroyed by the A and he desperately wants that back.

I think IC would be very good for you too Redhorse. I am afraid you can't find the words, courage, strength, whatever to address this is serious way with your W. IC can help you with that.

On another topic. Being the one to initiate all of the time gets old really fast. It creates doubts. Most men's identity is tied to masculinity which includes sexual prowess. Being declined even once in awhile is soul crushing. It becomes easier to avoid sex altogether versus being the one that always that gets rejected or gets pity sex. Obligation sex can be replaced with pity sex. Rejection hurts. Sexless M are created this way.

This type of rejection hurts just as bad as emotional rejection or refusing to pay attention to your spouse does. Most men view their relationship through the lens of the physical relationship.

Viewing it through that lens it looks like redhorse sees a M that she puts with for other reasons than love, attraction or desire. It hurts to think on that, but he can't ignore it any longer.

Redhorse. The sex issues your W has are her problem. You can only ask her to work on them, but my guess is she has some issues there that only a professional would be able to help her with. The fact that she refuses to address this issue despite you asking her to is either her misunderstanding how important this is to you, her refusing to do so because she has not fixed her selfish brokeness that caused the A in the first place or sadly she choose you because of your shared history after looking for a better option and found out that the grass over there is no greener that it is on her side of the fence.

She gets her life back. Of course she is going to be happy. Truth be told she got it back in exactly the same way it was before with added baggage. She needs to put more effort in your M in ways that help you find your happiness too. I fear in both the A and in your M your W feels that sex is the price admission to have the relationship. She doesn't do it because she wants to. She'd be happy with none at all. She needs both medical and psychological approaches to address this issue.

Apart from not cheating anymore, what else has she really done to build a new M?

I will say as a bit of a t/j that these threads on men's views of women, sex, and what's on men's minds have really changed the way I treat men. For better or worse. I am no longer very friendly or kind because I find it disturbing that they are thinking of me "that way" and I am horrified I am sending the wrong message. I probably have clearer boundaries, but I find that I don't like myself as much as a person. I was kind and warm and friendly to everyone--and I liked me, and now I look at men as if they are animals on the hunt. Even my male friends.

It's a more isolated world these last few weeks. Kind of sad.

I understand the discussion is on libido....many times, WW discuss why they cheated...and its not always about sex, libido....

ITs about attention...love bombing...feeling wanted...yes, its a huge blow to the ego, especially in the sex department for BH....however, so many have said, even with the AP, they went thru what they did, to get the attention...the emotional attention....to feel special...many times the sex wasn't all that...

we cant forget this important part....maybe your wife needs more of this attention, to feel sexual... I know I do...I feel completely unimportant or wanted. I'm just a tool..WH is emotionally unavailable...in addition to ED.

Menopause and ED happen...this other issue can happen at any age...when the two combine...its confusing and hurtful....it feels like rejection...cheating always feels like rejection....age confuses things. We have to remember, cheating was never about the spouse....It was never about the AP...it was something broken in the cheater....libido and cheating are different. Certainly affected by age, and certainly affected by cheating...

I get this may be a deal breaker for you....what other parts of the A are deal breakers????

FYI....My H, if asked, would respond that he has always shown me attention. Treated me well..if I was asked, I would say not only did I receive zero attention or respect, but he was emotionally abusive....an argument to the end of time...

[This message edited by cancuncrushed at 10:28 AM, April 2nd (Monday)]

Like all marriages, things will never be perfect. After we accept that reality, we all have to enforce our own boundaries about what we will or will not tolerate--whether post-infidelity or in general. It is not that I don't think you have a right to feel however you feel, Redhorse. But then, if she either won't or can't fix herself, it's your call.

Many of us have to weigh our options, as well. I have 1, 2, and 3. But I don't have 4 and 5. Hmmm. Should I stick with this marriage?

A tough call.

It always is.

Like getting pregnant or winning me or keeping me.

The M is good otherwise.

Why isn't she winning you now? What does/did she do to win you post D-day? And was sex ever a part of that at all?

You did say you had HB. But during that time who initiated it? If the WW was actively initiating during HB, why did it slacken now? If she did not initiate during HB, did she actually try to win you in any other way?

To me it seems like your WW has stopped making up for the damage that she caused and you are the only one in reconciliation, while she is just glad that you are not going to leave anyway. Despite what you might have told your wife, I don't think she is in fear of your M ending because of her affair.

It is not about the libido. It is more about what your WW did to win the OM and doesn't bother to do to win you. Reading from your post history I can see you are only bothered by the physical part of the affair. But honestly, I don't believe that your wife ever gave much importance to the physical part of the affair.

I’m an old WW. I had an over the top libido but peri menopause ended that. Sad because I can almost remember the week it happened. Poof....gone. Growing old sucks. I truly miss that omg I can’t wait to tear your clothes off feeling.

After both us mourning the loss of my libido (he saw a sex therapist to help him cope) we worked to adjust. That said I believe our sex life will continue to improve. Menopause is a change and I believe, for me, there is a great sex life for us on the other side.

OWNing it- by far your last post to red horse was some of the best advice I have seen given from you, with impartiality to gender aside. Bravo, that was awesome. It acknowledged the differences in men and women exist, but didn’t go so far as to demonize men for being how we are. Thank you for that, and I’m sure red horse would agree.

On the subject of your slight TJ- I’d caution you not to imagine that all men are disrespectful predators, devoid of morality. I’d say most men are opportunistically driven, with sex being a core driver of our actions, far more of a driver than it is for women. But being knowledgeable about the opposite gender is not a bad thing. I have learned a lot about how women think and see things that I never would have had I not come here. It has been useful.

Perhaps the thing to absorb here is that to a large degree, men tend to tie our self worth and ego to our wives/ girlfriends..it’s roped into a core aspect of our masculinity. So really a wife that isn’t perfect by all the sexual definitions we have discussed, but has been faithful, hasn’t tested our biological dispositions, like a wife who has cheated on us. They are two different creatures...and held to two different standards...and a lot of it has to do with territoriality I surmise. A wife in menopause who has low desire but has low desire for ANYONE, is not the same as a wife in menopause who has low desire for her H, but obviously felt different about a competitor male to H. Massive difference, and frankly, nothing a WW does can change that really, they could be perfect after Dday, but I think that Scarlet A burns extra bright for women than it does for men more often.

NNM, thank you. I really am listening (reading. Lol). I feel there is always more to learn. As I've said, this is highly triggering and emotional for me--lots of FOO to sift through, which is exactly why I need to work on it.

I am not sure that I agree with the proposition that men derive their self-esteem from their partner. I do not, at least.

I do think that males are designed to hunt, fight, and have sex. And that in a world where monogamy in marriage is expected, a lack of sex within the marriage makes for a very unfulfilled male at a core “firmware” level.