SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

How did dinner with your DIL go?

How do you feel today? How is your WH doing with his part of handling his betrayal?

Dinner went well & we had a good time. Walked around a nearby store to walk off the satiety. Enough left overs for 2 meals. Snagged tickets for the new Avenger movie for tonight.

He's realized that his AP was only out for one thing, but it's still going to be a long process.

I asked him about the dialogue that made it be ok for him to do this & he said that it was about sharing. He couldn't remember details, but I was thinking, "dude, we are going to go over this in MC".

He started to get a little defensive with me because I'd told him a couple of times where I thought he might be lying to me & I told him I'd call him out on his BS.

I'm thinking about writing down the timeline to show him but not sure if that would help him or just add to my anger.

He's admitting that she fed his ego & he fell right into it. He's sees the behavior that caused the A & doesn't want D. Whether that's because he lives me or has abandonment issues remains to be seen.

And the petty part of me gets upset when he laughs & jokes with the boys. I don't feel like laughing or joking & would like to know that he's in pain, too. Then I worry that I'll say something cutting that would be unrecoverable. And does it really matter because his actions have been so detrimental to me & our family?

Today, I'm going to try & get some sunshine & look forward to going to the movies.

I'm glad that you were able to have some enjoyment with your DIL. That can be a really precious thing this early on.

He's realized that his AP was only out for one thing, but it's still going to be a long process.

Yes, it is. 2-5 years after he "gets it."

He started to get a little defensive with me

Gently, this isn't remorse. He might be working up to it. There's a balancing act here that he hasn't realized yet. It is between "how much do I love him" on one side and on the other, "how much he's being an ass." Basically. Him being an ass both subtracts from your "love" side and adds to his "ass" side.

It sounds like he needs to get his head out of his ass and figure out what is really going on, how you feel, and what he needs to do to help you to heal. Defensive isn't it.

I'm thinking about writing down the timeline to show him but not sure if that would help him or just add to my anger.

Gently again, _he_ needs to be writing the timeline for _you_. For several reasons, one is so that you can compare the timeline to what you know for inconsistencies. Another is to demonstrate his willingness to try to be open and transparent. Another is for him to do something for you to help you heal.

You cannot R successfully with an unremorseful spouse. He might not have gotten it yet, and he might be working towards it, but the more that you do the more that you show him that you're willing to take on the burden of "fixing this." When you do the work you teach him that he doesn't have to do the work.

This is the wrong message to send.

He's admitting that she fed his ego & he fell right into it. He's sees the behavior that caused the A & doesn't want D.

Gently yet again, of course he doesn't want to D. This wasn't an exit A, this was a cake eater A where he wanted his cake and to eat it, too. He doesn't want to change his life because that's hard. Him "admitting" is way different than him internalizing and seeing that continuing as he was is not an option compatible with a continued, happy, M. He might have been "good enough" before he cheated but no longer.

And the petty part of me gets upset when he laughs & jokes with the boys. I don't feel like laughing or joking & would like to know that he's in pain, too. Then I worry that I'll say something cutting that would be unrecoverable. And does it really matter because his actions have been so detrimental to me & our family?

I get it. You've been destroyed and he's out laughing. That would be really hard to watch.

leafields, if he has had an A and you say something that he considers unrecoverable, well, um, that's pretty ballsy of him to say, isn't it?

He broke the M contract. The M was over and you didn't get the memo. You two might build a new relationship, have a new, different, more satisfying M, but you can't go back to before his A, that just doesn't cut it any more.

thoughts?

Thanks for the gentle reminders & helping me go through the roller coaster. You're correct & I don't think he's remorseful yet.

The cake eater analogy is one I need to remember. Part of what she said was that we could share him but she wanted him to f* her. He said she was blunt & I'm guessing the f bomb was putting it mildly. He said that she's the only one other than me that ever showed sexual interest in him & her & her was flattered. Not true, but time has blunted his memory. I told him it still doesn't justify his A.

He was adding to the ass bank, as you so aptly described. Sometimes I feel that we can work through this & other times I can't. I don't like feeling so confused, butt guess that's my new normal for a while.

Honestly, the times I was most unhappy the first year were family events. Holidays, I couldn’t even go. Take care of you.

Went & saw the new Avengers movie last night. I haven't kept up with them, but a lot of crossovers from some of the other hero movies. Set up for the next installment of the story. (Great graphics, good story, not sure I liked it.)

Today is a new day & the sun is out. Going to go to church & then run to the store to get stuff for dinner through the week. Then, sit out in the yard to read the Sunday paper and go for a walk. But I reserve the right to just come home & take a nap.

I need to ask a question...and I may have missed a discussion about this...

Why is it that you would consider going to ANY family reunions where that sister will be???

I know he wants to meet / have contact with his biological siblings, but I'm not so sure he hasn't given up that right with his choices with one of his siblings.

If you feel comfortable with it, can't you see them individually???

I think they MUST be told.

If for no other reason, to protect other siblings and their wives.

I know your H seems to have taken his head out of his ass, and the sister has not.

But even if SHE will not be at the reunion...HE will.

Neither of them have acceptable boundaries at this time.

I don't intend to sound mean. But isn't it a bit early on in his healing to go to a reunion with lots of other siblings?

Not to mention what it will put you through.

My apologies if I am off base.

[This message edited by WhatsRight at 11:40 AM, April 29th (Sunday)]

He said that she's the only one other than me that ever showed sexual interest in him & her & her was flattered. Not true, but time has blunted his memory.

Permit me the luxury of doubt? I don't think that "time has blunted his memory." I think that he's trying to find reasons that he's not a bad person and he thinks, in his "foggy" state, that someone showing sexual interest in him somehow excuses his behavior, or makes it less horrible.

There's a use of the word "but" that completely removes the part of the statement before the "but."

"I had an A," he says, " and having an A is something that horrible people do, so by extension I'm horrible -but- she came on to me and I was flattered."

That's not a reason, that's an excuse and a way for him to excuse, or nullify, the thought that he's horrible. See how that -but-, above, worked?

The real, deep, question that he needs to ask himself is, "Why, under any circumstances, did I think that having an A and betraying the love and trust of leafields, and my vows, was okay?" He needs to work on _why_ those thoughts of having an A were okay.

Love is an Action. It is how you treat your loved one when no one is looking, just like character is how you act when no one is looking.

leafields, make no mistake, you're the prize here. You're a woman. No doubt men have flirted or approached you inappropriately during your married life. Did you stray? You stayed true to your vows. What is your WH doing, of his own free will and action (like his A was) to prove that he's good enough for you to take another chance on?

Was IC before MC his idea? Did he go out googling things like "i screwed my sister how do i help my wife"? What has he actually _done_?

The problem is that if you're out googling this stuff, and trying to fix the M, and telling him to read this and do that, well, you're doing the work.

Item 11 in the BS FAQ link in The Healing Library is The 180. Read up on that, try applying a few of the distancing mechanisms, and then _watch_ what he does. He'll do what is important to him and he'll show you what is important by what he does. Does he talk to you about it? Does he mention it at all? Does he offer to discuss the A with you? Did he find out that he needs to write a timeline, all on his own?

One more thing, in your early posts you said that you hadn't decided yet whether to D or R. Please go back and re-read your posts with a critical eye to the language you use. Your later posts seem to me to assume that you're both working on R, or towards R. Do you read them differently?

Be very careful about telling yourself that you're in R when you actually just sort of both rugswept your way into something that you think is R. Those are two very different things.

Very good points, and I appreciate you guys helping me to keep my thought processes progressing - rather going in circles & down rabbit holes, which they have a tendency to do.

Why is it that you would consider going to ANY family reunions where that sister will be???

I don't, and today he said that he isn't going to go if she will be there. The M or R process is to valuable to him. That's going to take some talking to the person who is coordinating.

Item 11 in the BS FAQ link in The Healing Library is The 180. Read up on that, try applying a few of the distancing mechanisms, and then _watch_ what he does. He'll do what is important to him and he'll show you what is important by what he does. Does he talk to you about it? Does he mention it at all? Does he offer to discuss the A with you? Did he find out that he needs to write a timeline, all on his own?

I'll need to take a look at The 180 & be more conscious of what actions I'm doing. It is so easy to slip back into our routines, which may seem like R. Distancing would be a good thing. He hasn't discussed the A with me & I'm usually the one who is asking the questions. I told him that I wanted him to write a timeline. He said that he told me everything (he doesn't like writing) but I told him I NEEDED him to write it down because I would have more questions for him. Well see how it goes & I'll hold his feet to the fire on it.

We had a pretty intense conversation at lunch, and I brought up that our marriage is over & we can't go back. He needs to show me that he loves me & I brought up the question of why he thought that his betrayal of my love & our vows was ok. I said that love is an action & he would have to show me how much I mean to him.

You're right - I am the one doing the google searches, looking for books, searching for answers. He said that he's got a small glimpse of how bad his behavior was and that he's made the worst mistake of his life. He got lazy & took me for granted. I told him that was an excuse & let me know that I was as valuable as a bug to be squashed under his shoe. He was apologetic and said he'd do whatever it took to get me back. I told him he had to treat me like we were dating because he'd have to woo me back. I think doing the 180 will be good.

I told him that we weren't going to sweep things under the rug & that it was going to take a lot of work if we were going to do R. That after he finally gets what he did to me (when I feel that he gets it), then we have at least a 5 year path ahead & that would make me 60 or better (there would be times when I would still have trust issues). If we do D, then my healing starts sooner.

I mentioned that with D, I'd probably have to pay support but we could waive that instead of selling the house to split the asset. His whole body language changed & he realized that this was in no way settled yet. (I need to do a better job of distancing, which would give this more teeth.)

I'll need to print out the FAQ & study to get on track.

Lea..

all I can say is why why would you stay with this guy. He has sex with his sister. And wait y’all went to church.

What does the pastor think of him having sex with his sister.

You are sooo blind my dearest. This is wrong he’s is sick in the head and y’all are talking to his sister. No no no.

No contact means no contact.

Why are you making excuses for him and her. I hope you don’t have children if so please get him away from them.

He has Zero boundaries as does his sister.

Did you tell your lawyer that they are siblings???

That would change everything in the divorce and you most likely would not have to pay anything.

I just don’t have words.

By having sex with his sister it would most likely end up with you paying a lot less if it went to trial.

Your husband could be clueless like me and not pick up on flirting etc. I never thought anyone was interested because I didn’t like me.

I am truly sorry. He can type a timeline. You can also make a list of action items you expect to see from him. Including NC.

Transparency, a post nup,if it is legal in your state. Wooing aka dates he plans. He needs IC to see how messed up this situation is. They didn’t just betray you and your children and her spouse. What they did is sabotage a whole family of siblings who were just finding each other.

Your husband doesn’t get the dept of your hurt, plus the added factor of who the OW is. He doesn’t get that he will never have your complete trust again. He just doesn’t get it.

Maybe you should kick him to the curb for a few days and let him get his priorities straight.

Dupe

[This message edited by PricklePatch at 6:58 AM, April 30th (Monday)]

I told him that I wanted him to write a timeline. He said that he told me everything (he doesn't like writing) but I told him I NEEDED him to write it down because I would have more questions for him.

Gently, leafields, you're making excuses for him, again. Specifically "he doesn't like writing," which you seem to be somewhat accepting of as something that is hard for him.

I went back and read your first post. You found multiple texts with plans on how, when, where, and how much to cheat on you.

I guess "he doesn't like writing" only comes into play when it is something that he _doesn't_ want to do, because he sure didn't seem to have too much trouble when planning all that stuff out.

Well see how it goes & I'll hold his feet to the fire on it.

Gently, don't hold his feet to any fire.

Him _showing_ you what is important to him is accepting that what he does is what he wants to do. And what he wants to do is what is important to him. It really is that simple.

Did he come up with all sorts of excuses about planning things with his AP? No?

Then, leafields, why is it okay when he gives you excuses? Not even good excuses, either, because it directly contradicts what you already know to be true (him writing to her to plan to cheat) and doesn't make any damned sense at all? What the hell? Does he always spit this sort of drivel?

I do hope that some other readers chime in here to agree or disagree with this statement (hint, hint, dear readers):

The most that I'd do is get a copy of "How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair" by Linda J. MacDonald, throw it at him and say "Read this." Then I'd do The 180 and see if he even bothers to read the book. Because that's him, showing you what is important to him.

He said that he's got a small glimpse of how bad his behavior was and that he's made the worst mistake of his life.

Okay, were it me in this situation now instead of you that would piss me off, really badly.

"Mistake? MISTAKE? A mistake is when you forget to pick up Cheez Whiz from the store on the way home. This is most certainly not a mistake. Every single time you said something to her that you wouldn't say in front of me was a _choice_ to say that thing. Every single text that you sent that you wouldn't have wanted me to see was a _choice_ to send that text. Between every letter of every word of every sentence in every text you could have made the choice to stop, erase the text, and send, 'We cannot do this' instead of what you did eventually send.

"Every single button on your shirt was a _choice_ to go forward with cheating.

"You remember when I walked in and broke up the embrace in the hotel room? Having the embrace was a choice. Kissing her was a choice. Every single time she said something and you did _not_ stop that conversation was a choice. Every single time that you decided not to tell me what she was saying to you was a choice.

"You know what else is a series of wrong _choices_? Man-made catastrophes, that's what. When a series of wrong _choices_ leads to a plane crash, or a dam failure, or a bridge or building collapse, those are catastrophes. What the hell is the difference between _that_ series of wrong choices and _this_ one?

"So, this is where we are. You screwed the pooch. You left the barn door open and the horses escaped. We are where we are because of your shitty series of shitty choices to be a shitty cheater.

"What are you going to do about it?"

But then, leafields, I tend to get riled up by illogical, inconsistent statements and being treated like I'm stupid. I do, I'll be the first to say so. Being treated like I'm stupid is very disrespectful and I do not like it. We can respectfully disagree all day long and that's fine, that's good, that's dialogue. But dismiss me and that's a whole other kettle of fish.

He got lazy & took me for granted.

That's neither a reason nor an excuse. That's just deciding to act shitty. Does he remember to pay bills? Change his oil in his car? Take the car to a shop? He needs to realize that you where you are with him because you _choose_, every single day, not to just walk the hell out and leave his cheating ass alone and somebody else's problem.

"You took me for granted? Fine. What's for dinner? When will the laundry be done? When will the toilets be cleaned and the furniture dusted, floors swept, yard mowed, dishes washed? Because if you took me for granted, well, I don't. Everything that I do for us is a choice. Now I'm choosing to let you pick up some slack since apparently you can't be trusted to find something constructive to do when you're left alone."

leafields, that ^^^ is some righteous anger.

thoughts?

I went back and read the first post. This was not a simple, “oops I messed up” cheating. This was a full-blown affair. This was a man who did not mind harming his wife or his family. That is why I recommend that you split this up. He really cheated on you. He lied and connived and cheated. There is no getting around that. It does not matter who said the first sexual thing to the other. What does matter is that your husband lost his mind. For that he needs a very strongly worded explanation to you for how, and what, and when,and where. But he also needs to get himself into some sort of therapy to deal with whatever went on in his family when he was a little boy. Even if he had a crappy first four years there really is no excuse under the sun for cheating and there certainly is no excuse for what he did with his sister.

Whether you stay with him or divorce him he still needs a boat load of therapy. You seem to be a reasonably healthy woman emotionally and mentally. I think you will come out of all of this just fine. Once you get past the pure insanity of what he did you will manage your life. I certainly wish you well and hope you keep us posted on how things go

thoughts?

DM & Cooley -

Your posts help me to realize how many excuses I make for so many people. And I am so hurt and angry and sad - and sometimes within a space of minutes. And get mad at myself for not seeing through all the BS. Some of it, I have & called him on it but see that I've fallen short. Trying to calculate the unknown versus the known. And trying to pick myself up by my boot straps because of the devastation.

Today, the ringing in my ears is getting worse. Tomorrow, I have a lunch date with somebody in my support network. I would like my brain to stop swirling so much & start to get back on track.

Why is his sister being called the AP.

He had sex with his blood sister. I can’t even process it.

I would never say to him AP. I would only say. You had sex with your sister. The sister you had sex with. This is wonkier than open marriages.

Your posts help me to realize how many excuses I make for so many people. And I am so hurt and angry and sad - and sometimes within a space of minutes. And get mad at myself for not seeing through all the BS. Some of it, I have & called him on it but see that I've fallen short. Trying to calculate the unknown versus the known. And trying to pick myself up by my boot straps because of the devastation.

Welcome to The Emotional Rollercoaster. Back when I was going through this with xWGF I used to laugh at her absurd statements. I did the "Pick Me" Dance, too, though. I started off like you're starting off, with making excuses and "she's been victimized by a POS OM" and all of that. And SI was here to kick me in the ass and shove my head in a toilet and give me a flushing swirlie of reality. Which was kinder than that wording indicates, really it was.

The old M's "good enough" doesn't fucking cut it any longer, though. It just doesn't. What you were happy to have in the old days you realize was all in your head, and your head alone. It wasn't in his head and now you begin to wonder just what _was_ in his head for him to value your M so little. He pissed it away for a roll in the hay. Four orgasms later, he's left with a shattered M and a wife who is so hurt and disgusted that she's ready to just walk and build the rest of her life on her own and he just doesn't _fucking_ see that. Not at all.

Oh, no. He's all about "well, I made a mistake" and "she flashed the Golden Vagina of Subjugation at me and I, well, subjugated" and it is just so much horse shit.

And then you realize that he's _always_ been this way, he's always had this broken coping mechanism in him, and you thing, "what the ever-loving _fuck_?!?" That's when you really begin to look at him and wonder "why? why am I still here?" and "what else am I missing?"

An A really is a killer of the old ways and the old modes of thinking.

To get past an A the WS must re-invent themselves. They must. Well, only if you don't want to rugsweep and act like everyting is okay and believe him when he says, "never happen again, dear." But, you ask yourself, why should I believe that when you made vows at our wedding that "won't happen in the first place, let alone 'not again'"?

So the WS must reinvent themselves to be safe to trust with our emotions again. But the BS, ah, the BS must reinvent themselves, too, not to be so gullible the second time around. We lose something of innocence and blind trust. We start thinking about how each and every day is a choice to be where we are. A choice to be with who we are with.

Today, the ringing in my ears is getting worse. Tomorrow, I have a lunch date with somebody in my support network. I would like my brain to stop swirling so much & start to get back on track.

Yeah, more of The Emotional Rollercoaster's physical effects. I did "The Infidelity Diet" where I got by on my 2, 2, and 2 diet. Two packs of cigarettes, two pots of coffee, and two hours of sleep per day. I lost a pound a day for 20 days and 1/2 pound a day for the next 10. That is frighteningly common.

It was funny and sad, looking back, how consistently she lied to make everything as easy on herself as possible. And now I'm glad that I'm rid of her. She's her own and AP's problem now, and that's okay. I'm better off and happier, now. My blood pressure is down.

thoughts, leafields? I'm not trying to threadjack with my story. I'm trying to show you that you can decide to grow and let him wallow if that's what he wants to do.

You can be authentic whether he wants to or not.

Should I say thanks for the swirly? lol This roller coaster sucks.

Overcompensating adoptive mom trying to make up for the bio mom probably grew the sense of entitlement. Not that I'm making excuses for the selfish jerk - not this time, anyway.

Got the two Linda J MacDonald books & gave him Who Will You Become last night. He did start reading & he said he could identify a lot of his behaviors in the book. This morning, he did say that he wished he'd never had met his bio sis. Which is fine & dandy, but that still isn't going to repair the situation. Plus, we'd still have problems that were in the old M.

Started the 180 & trying to stay detached. Printed out the steps so I can review several times.

Should I say thanks for the swirly?

You're welcome, thanks or not as you see fit.

Now, please go back through your 6 pages after you read this message. As you go through, ask yourself _who_ is doing the things that you talk about being done.

Is it him?

Is it you?

If it is him, who is benefiting from what is happening, you or him? In other words, is he lying, minimizing, protecting his own ass? Does he remind you of Wally Cleaver or Eddie Haskell from Leave it to Beaver? What would Ward (the dad) say?

If it is you doing the thing then why are you doing it?

Big, scary things are big and scary. We often try to control the outcome of big and scary by taking control of the activities that are going on around big and scary thing. A's are big and scary. Splitting up is big and scary. Divorce is big and scary.

You can't control big and scary, you can only control you. Trying to control big and scary is a fear-based response. You're afraid of the outcomes that you don't want.

Here's a hard fact: You do not control the outcome. WHAT?!? you say. Nope, you don't. WH has a hand in controlling the outcome by what he chooses to do. When he minimizes, gaslights, lies, trickle truths, blameshifts, all of those things drive you away.

You might respond by trying harder to control the outcome. "I feel it slipping away and I'm scared, so I'll grip _harder_!" you say. It doesn't work. You've a handful of air and you're squeezing it really, really hard. But you can't control it, because there isn't anything in your hand that you can control.

SI has another saying, "you have to be willing to lose the M in order to save it."

If you aren't willing to lose the M then you are giving up control of your fate to your WH. Because he can do anything that he wants to and you aren't willing to lose the M. So, what you're teaching him is that he can do anything he wants and you won't leave.

Who has the power then? WH, that's who. Sure, you can complain and cry and beg (that's the pick me dance) and you can dance harder and faster, but you can't control him that way because you don't have any power. You've given it up.

The 180 helps you detach a bit and get some confidence back in yourself and some knowledge that you'll live with him or without him. With a bit of distance and perspective then you can take control of your own fate back into your own hands. You still can't control him, but you never could. The best that you could do was to try to manipulate him into acting the way that you wanted him to act. (Not saying that you did that, but saying that that was all that was ever possible.)

After he finishes Who Will You Become then give him How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair, and then don't do anything else. Be you, go do things without him like the DIL dinner or your upcoming lunch with local support. Be happy, or put on a damned good front.

Re-read the bits above about being willing to lose the M in order to save it. Think about who has the power and who has yours. You, or him? Go back and re-read your earlier posts and replies and _think_ about who had the power in them. Really read what you wrote and think about the way that you wrote it and what your assumptions and desires were.

Also, his crap about "wish I hadn't met bio sis?" Well, tell him this - It didn't matter who you met. You were broken inside. You were untrustworthy waiting for a place to hit the fan. Your sister didn't cause you to cheat, you were cheating waiting to happen. You weren't trustworthy and you went on to prove that. I know that now. What are you going to do about it?

Sometime soon maybe I'll write up the "mental models" speech again. It is an eye-opener.

DM -

Went to print & there are 60 pages. Will read through the PDF version, but it will take a while.

Last night, I sat outside & enjoyed sitting with the dogs, watching the cows & birds. Tried to be peaceful and just sit & bide for a while.