SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I have yet to see an example - though I have to believe they exist - where it was not about what the sex got the WS and the OP. I think it is a distraction to what matters to argue in terms of if it was about the sex or not about the sex.

When D goes into V it becomes entirely about what participating in that is getting the WS. And we call the participation in that having sex. So whether or not the A was about the physical and mental desire to have D in V or not is irrelevant once that physically occurs. From that point on, there is some trade-off happening that would only work where the sex is the currency.

If you are in it for the physical enjoyment of the act, or you are agreeing to participate in the act for what you are getting in return, it becomes a moot point to say it was or was not about the sex. Once D goes into V, in all practical purposes, it is all about the sex - or said another way - it is all about what participating in the sex gets you.

And for many BS's, once D goes into V, the game playing conversations about that from the WS are all nonsense. Once the line is crossed it is all about that, for one reason or another, or the line would not be crossed.

A WS cannot hide behind it was not about the sex, when it was all about what the sex got them. It is defensive, semantic, game playing.

RIO, I totally understand your conundrum. I don't think there is a rational answer for it.

I go back to the mass murderer metaphor. We read, for example, about some lunatic walking into a school and methodically shooting a bunch of kids. He says "I was bullied and I want people to hurt like I hurt." We wrack our brains over the question: "What would cause somebody to do that?" Because for most of us, no matter how badly we were bullied, no matter how deeply we plumb the darkest recesses of our souls, there is nothing, no reason, no cause, nothing that would ever cause us to do that. We simply cannot fathom a rational reason for this. There is no rational reason. The person who does this is broken. A lunatic. The bullshit logic she is trying to get you to digest is similarly lunatic.

Explaining a thing is not the same as excusing it. I do believe that, in her mind, your WW's logic was as she says: she got saccharine words, he got the GFE (girl friend experience). In her twisted mind, that was a fair bargain under the circumstances.

"Okay, fine, that explains why, from your fucked up perspective, you did what you did. But it does not mean I will excuse it." (that is you talking to your WW)

At some level, if you wish to R, you simply have to accept that something was broken in her, to the point where she allowed this bullshit logic to lead her down the path of shattering her marriage and mortally injuring her husband. The leap of faith we see in successful R stories is just that -- a leap of faith. In some manner, the WW is able to convince her BH that her love is true, to the point where his heart can heal the hurt. It really does come down to the heart's truth.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 11:12 AM, July 2nd (Monday)]

Limerence - Wikipedia

noun: limerence; plural noun: limerences

the state of being infatuated or obsessed with another person, typically experienced involuntarily and characterized by a strong desire for reciprocation of one's feelings but not primarily for a sexual relationship.

ETA: Personally, I found this to be an excellent thread, with some great responses by everyone, especially the responses from the WW's. I would like to suggest to leave things to the moderators as to whether someones response is appropriate based on their gender and/or betrayal status.

[This message edited by HardenMyHeart at 2:15 PM, July 2nd (Monday)]

you're almost never going to get any need that's not sexual consistently met in an A. We all know the story, love, love, love, d-day, "who is that woman", "he chased me", "he forced me into it", "I hate him".. Etc, etc.. What most people will actually get from an A is sex, the "emotional connection" is just one AP saying whatever the other wants to hear to feel good.

But, if you haven't really been exposed to how affairs usually go-you don't know that. If you do, then you don't care for the amount of time you get that immediate gratification filled for whatever that want was. My wants were consistently met in the affair though it really wasn't enough still and I had no idea at the time why. That it was more about me being enough for me. You know you are being fake, but you really don't know they are.

You know my money (sex) is real, there's no way to fake that.

To you that matters. Because you are emotional about sex. Some people aren't. My wife isn't. It is just a physical act. She doesn't get an emotional fix from it like I do or use it to relieve stress. Funny that I saw this topic last night. The Family Feud had a question where 100 married woman were asked how many nights they would want to have sex with their husband. The highest percentage answer was 1. Three nights came in at 20%. It didn't show the percentage for that 1. Anyway, even if the emotion is fake and not real it didn't matter with me because no matter what I was still getting that attention. Like a child, negative or positive-it was still about me.

they know there's a high risk of buying counterfeits, they've bought them in the past (previous relationships)

Experience might factor too. I have never had any negative counterfeit past relationships with any of my ex-girlfriends. Most that I broke up with in the past, I chose to because they got too needy. So, you don't have the experience that the attention would be fake. If anything it really doesn't matter because it was fun anyhow.

Compound it by the fact that the AP, by virtue of simply being in an A has shown themselves to be morally compromised and willing/able to effectively lie to those close to them (their H/W). And this is the person you're going to trust to sell you a real diamond?

Yeah that really didn't matter because I was doing the same thing. Hard to judge them when we are acting the same way. If anything it was better because we are allowed to be the worst version of ourselves and not be held accountable because we both are fucked up and suck.

But, what I don't get is people who claim the A was for the "emotional connection" and then all they do in the A is sex.

Got it. So, what happened in your wife's affair doesn't match up to what she said she wanted?

I go back to the mass murderer metaphor. We read, for example, about some lunatic walking into a school and methodically shooting a bunch of kids. He says "I was bullied and I want people to hurt like I hurt." We wrack our brains over the question: "What would cause somebody to do that?" Because for most of us, no matter how badly we were bullied, no matter how deeply we plumb the darkest recesses of our souls, there is nothing, no reason, no cause, nothing that would ever cause us to do that. We simply cannot fathom a rational reason for this. There is no rational reason. The person who does this is broken. A lunatic. The bullshit logic she is trying to get you to digest is similarly lunatic.

While I'm not fond of this analogy because it could horribly trigger people, I think I can use it to illustrate the point. Let's say said bully, when caught, said their reason was "I just wanted to carry a gun in school to see what it felt like" (and let's equate this to an EA). OK, that's awful, it's terribly hurtful to people and could cause all kinds of PTSD and other issues when he walked up to people and said "I have a 9mm in my backpack". But it's still all talk at that point. He may or may not have the gun. Nobody's seen it, and nobody's been shot.

Well, then, of course, he pulls out the gun and shoots up the school. And sticks with his original reason, I just wanted people to think I was cool and respect me. OK idiot, why the f**k did you shoot up the school then (PA)? If you just wanted people to admire you (EA) and think you're cool, why did you have to kill all those people? Oh, and then, as the kicker, as many AP's do, tell you "And I don't even like shooting guns, I just like holding them". Well, what the holy f**k?!? That's how I feel. Yeah, I'd be concerned if you carried the gun into school. We'd get MC, we'd dig into the issue. But why did you have to shoot up the place, especially when you don't even like to shoot??

Also, I'll say, you give me too much credit. I can picture myself having an A. Sex is fun, sex with new people is fun, I enjoy sex, A's provide sex. Absent morality and standing by my vows, I see the appeal of it IF you start from the basis I do. If I'm honest, the more I learn about A's, the more it appeals to me (NO, I'm not going to have one, I'm just stating my truth here), it's a pretty nice deal for someone who's sexually motivated. More sex, no possibility of commitment, no dates or spending money. It's straight to the part of the relationship that I most enjoy. Yes, that has a lot of appeal, until of course, my moral compass kicks in and I think about all the damage, horror and destruction I'd leave in my wake for a few orgasms, then it's not worth it at all. But to say I don't understand the "why" or the "how" I personally could do it would be a misstatement. What I won't do is do it because I know how badly it hurts other people.

You know you are being fake, but you really don't know they are.

How do people suddenly become so blind in an A? I think that most people realize that men are often after women for sex and not a relationship, right? I mean, my parents told me that at a very young age (and told me not to be that person). And, here's the thing, if you're after sex, being "fake" makes not a single bit of difference. You can't fake the sex, so it wouldn't matter to me at all if my hypothetical AP was faking being interested in that or not, I'd be getting what I wanted from the A. You can fake emotions, and in many (most, IMHO) A's they are faked. It's like going to a rough street in NYC to buy a Gucci bag and then thinking it's real. I mean, really? Were that many people born yesterday?

To you that matters. Because you are emotional about sex. Some people aren't. My wife isn't. It is just a physical act. She doesn't get an emotional fix from it like I do or use it to relieve stress. Funny that I saw this topic last night. The Family Feud had a question where 100 married woman were asked how many nights they would want to have sex with their husband. The highest percentage answer was 1. Three nights came in at 20%. It didn't show the percentage for that 1. Anyway, even if the emotion is fake and not real it didn't matter with me because no matter what I was still getting that attention. Like a child, negative or positive-it was still about me.

Actually, you've got us backwards. My W is the one who was/is emotional about sex. She's the one who had all the restrictions on sex, had to be the right time, right mood, etc. I'm more like your W, sex and love are not coupled for me, I've had great sex with people I can barely tolerate, and been in love with people I never had sex with. But, maybe you are onto something here. Maybe my W really isn't emotional about sex and she just always claimed she was because "women are supposed to be". That might explain some of it. Where I do get emotional about it; sex is important to me, and I spent a long period of our M trying to deal with the lack of it and our sexual differences and incompatibility. Enter OM, no more lack of sex (for him) and suddenly, all the sexual issues we had? Didn't exist for OM. Nope, she was good to go as often as he could, and every sexual act was just fine by her.

RIO: That's an aspect of your situation I hadn't previously considered. You wanted more sexuality with your WW, and were disappointed that she would not go there with you. I'll assume you communicated that to her. Although sex is important to you, it's not the only priority and in a marriage there is always give-and-take. You were willing to live a life of less than satisfying sex as a part of upholding your end of the marriage.

Then, she not only betrays you and fails to honor her vows, she does it by sharing with POSOM the very thing that you sacrificed, something you wanted, from her, dearly. It's almost as if she was trying on purpose to rub your face in it. Or, phrased another way, you sacrificed that part of your life, an important part, for the marriage, and she devalued what you gave up by sharing it with somebody else.

Have you had that discussion with her? Is it possible that communications broke down on this issue, that she perceived subconsciously that you found her a boring lay and she craved feeling like an exciting lay to somebody.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 5:27 AM, July 3rd (Tuesday)]

I think they wanted to take it physical so they could have sex with the other man. That's the surefire way for them to reaffirm their attractiveness in a relative stranger/soulmate's eyes and keep those ego kibbles coming.

That or Hannibal Lector something or whatever.

The important thing is not allowing her to minimize the sex in the affair. It was part of it and must be dealt with. She needs to own it.

Best wishes.

I think that most people realize that men are often after women for sex and not a relationship, right?

For that percentage of men you know. There have been many here including myself that have told you otherwise. I don't think any of us are that blind. I just didn't care. Big difference. I didn't want a lasting new marriage with some AP. Most don't. We just want more of what we already have when it is a cake eater. There is no future payoff for the cake eater. It is just present. Instant gratification. We live in the moment. It is a part of our selfishness, entitlement, immaturity, and whatever else we have that healthy rational people with a conscience don't have.

My W is the one who was/is emotional about sex.

Emotional as in your love language. As in how you find value, love, validation, enjoyment. You put a ton of value on sex for the relationship. From the way you respond and from your posts on the last page it really seems to me that you couple the two. It seems to be the most important thing to you.

So, what does your wife say? What are her reasons then? Do you think she is lying? Is it possible she doesn't love you or feel passion for you? Would there be any resentment issues there? Has she told you why? Has she mentioned anything about becoming immune to you finding her attractive but wanted to see if she was to others as antlered stated? From what I gather it was for emotional needs for her. She got that filled by the AP in exchange for sex. If she said that was her reason, then it probably was and it was being filled in an unhealthy way or she would have stopped it. What reason does she have to lie. Do you think she is afraid tell you or just doesn't know why she didn't want to have that type of a sex life with you.

My AP lied and told me her boyfriend (soon to be fiance shortly after Dday) hadn't had sex with her in 2 months. Later, my wife found out that was a lie. During the affair, I thought to myself the man was douche and needed to treat her better. It never occurred to me she was lying or that (as my wife pointed out) was a red flag. Just wasn't normal for a man to not want to have sex with his girlfriend. That maybe she was lying and/or there was some reason (like serial cheater) he didn't want to have sex with her that if he didn't I sure as Hell shouldn't have wanted to. AP2 was bisexual and pushed the agenda between AP1 and I. They would talk about sex together and threesomes in my presence. When my wife confronted AP1 she told her she envied her family and life and just wanted a friend. So, who the Hell knows. Maybe the biggest truth is that as cheaters we lie and manipulate and there really are no truths at that time to the cheater.

So, who knows maybe your wife is lying. My APs drove the bus when it came to talking about sex, trying to have it, and pretty much anything sexual in nature. At the risk of not being the gentleman, but they acted like sluts from a movie. I get part of questions and you probably could post this in some other site and find woman that were more sexually motivated and were the aggressors for the sexual desire. I too have often wondered and even asked similar questions about that as well. I had two APs that didn't act anything like the way most of wayward woman on here post in how it started and what they were after. I have noticed for many that they were the ones chased. I really would have expected more to say they put themselves out there to be desired and did their fair share of flirting and teasing to rev up the sexual tensions. IDK. Maybe those types stick to OW forums. We have a few that are honest and do post it.

The analogy that (I think) got to my WW was this:

I'm going to rob someone, my sole purpose is to get what that other person has - money, mobile phone, other valuables. I'm taking a gun with me. I know that there's a good probability I will have to use it.

So, I rob that person, he resists, I kill him. I get caught. And now I'm facing kids and spouse of my victim, I'm trying to explain that I didn't want to kill him, I'm not a killer, it's just that things escalated and I killed him.

Like it makes a fucking difference. I brought a gun, I used it. The guy is dead.

Why?

They wanted more.

What is better than one slice of cake?

Two slices at the same time.

They were able to justify to themselves that they

could have two relationships at the same time.

Same for WH's.

We can talk about egos needing boosting. Needs not

being met.

Who dates and does not want to take the

relationship to the next level. This is why it

went physical.

That's an aspect of your situation I hadn't previously considered. You wanted more sexuality with your WW, and were disappointed that she would not go there with you. I'll assume you communicated that to her. Although sex is important to you, it's not the only priority and in a marriage there is always give-and-take. You were willing to live a life of less than satisfying sex as a part of upholding your end of the marriage.

Then, she not only betrays you and fails to honor her vows, she does it by sharing with POSOM the very thing that you sacrificed, something you wanted, from her, dearly. It's almost as if she was trying on purpose to rub your face in it. Or, phrased another way, you sacrificed that part of your life, an important part, for the marriage, and she devalued what you gave up by sharing it with somebody else.

Have you had that discussion with her? Is it possible that communications broke down on this issue, that she perceived subconsciously that you found her a boring lay and she craved feeling like an exciting lay to somebody.

Quoted the entire thing, because you perfectly captured where I'm coming from. It was very important to me, it was discussed, and I made the decision that I could live with less of a sexual marriage than I wanted. Yes, it hurt at times (during the M), but I dealt with it. It was "her", she just didn't have much/any drive for it, and sex felt like a "favor" to me. No, I wasn't happy about it, in fact, I was very hurt. But I loved her; it was a compromise I was willing to make. Well, come the A, all that changes, of course, because all the compromises that I "had to " make to be with my W; well, AP didn't have to make any of them. A story that's been told here many times, which is why I think that this thread and others like it always seem to get a lot of interest.

To your last question, I'm not sure if she knew how much I liked being with her that way. I told her, I showed her, but, I still think you might be right and she didn't believe it or accept that I really enjoyed sex with her.

So, what does your wife say? What are her reasons then? Do you think she is lying? Is it possible she doesn't love you or feel passion for you? Would there be any resentment issues there? Has she told you why? Has she mentioned anything about becoming immune to you finding her attractive but wanted to see if she was to others as antlered stated? From what I gather it was for emotional needs for her. She got that filled by the AP in exchange for sex. If she said that was her reason, then it probably was and it was being filled in an unhealthy way or she would have stopped it. What reason does she have to lie. Do you think she is afraid tell you or just doesn't know why she didn't want to have that type of a sex life with you.

She basically has said "it wasn't about the sex" and that wasn't what she wanted from the A. Her reasons for having the A are the typical, wanted someone to value her, emotional connection, etc. The "normal" stuff you read here, most often from WW's. Yes, I think it's possible she doesn't love me/feel passion for me, hence, this thread. I have no idea how to figure that out anymore, and no way to rationalize "I loved you more than anyone else, he didn't mean much to me" with "But then I banged him so much he couldn't get hard anymore". No, she's never mentioned becoming immune to me finding her attractive, although, to be honest, this makes a ton of sense to me. Getting verbal validation from a 3rd party is far more valuable to me than, for example, getting it from my parents. The "you want to say that" vs "you have to say that". I can see that, for sure, being a part of it for her. Sadly, she does have reason to lie, as many WS's do. There are certain things that I just couldn't accept as answers here, the worst being "I just loved having sex with him more than I ever did you". So, yeah, I think there's certainly motivation to lie here.

Also your right, I was misreading you, sex is my love language. Which, I guess in a lot of ways, is a big part of the problem. If sex is the way you get love and the way that you decide how much another person loves you, then it's pretty easy to see why you can get into the spiral that I'm on. Sex can be measured, so you had this much sex with OM, did these things with him? Compare that to what we did during the same time period. And come to the conclusion, you loved him more, more than you ever did me (because of the things they did together that weren't offered to me).

I have a couple of random comments from various areas along this thread.

One a couple of people called out the whole "I didn't have an affair for the sex" thing.

-I want to express this is not how my husband and I discuss it. The sex in the A isn't even a big focus of our discussions, which seems to be different perspective from some of the experiences here. I think the way it's perceived sometimes has a lot to do with the pre-A marriage. In our marriage, sex wasn't lacking - connection was. That resonates as true with my husband. It doesn't excuse what I did, but it helps us to work together and separately on the issues surrounding why. I don't minimize there was sex - there is no reason to. The concentration is on the betrayal itself - that encompasses everything.

In RIO's case for example, it was lacking, she gave it to the OM and so there are issues around that. He was under the impression there was a low sex drive, she showed capability where he thought there was none, and then add to that he understands love through sex. I think many men understand love through sex. This leads me to my next thought...

In the five love languages it doesn't say sex. It says physical touch. I think that's important because one thing I have noticed with girlfriends who "aren't into it" has a lot to do with all touch being sexualized. I am not saying that's what RIO experiences - this part is meant to be general. So, because of that I think they often skirt the other physical touch as to not "get him turned on". But, the other physical touch is often building up the loving connection feelings between the two people. Holding hands, hugging, kissing, caressing an arm or the back. Often times I think the shut down of not allowing the other touches because they don't want to have sex "right now" and they know that's where it has to go for their husband blocks the connection that would actually help their sex life to grow.

This polarization between the two people block both of the parties from getting what they want. The woman wanting the connection, the loving feelings from the non-sexual touch. The man feeling frustrated.

Also, speaking from a woman who loves a man who is older than some of you...I notice the shift of the husband wanting the non-sexual touch more, the caressing and the loving more even before or after sex. As they age, "getting to it" seems to be less of a goal, and this commiserates well with us lovely ladies who might be having hormonal changes or post-menopausal aspects because we need more coal in the furnace so to speak.

I am saying this in case it is helpful - do you want more sex? Then love on her without expectations. Foreplay is all day.

This won't solve it all for everyone, because sometimes the man or woman just isn't as sexualized as a person. But, hone in on creating the atmosphere and I do think it will help more than it hurts.

I would be remiss in mentioning for a WS...I see all sorts of themes in posts (I can name 5 or 6 that are ongoing right now) where the BS is really wanting some of the excitement you showed to the AP. Spontaneity to me is the biggest turn-on ever. The hottest times with my H is when we've been on long car-rides and couldn't resist pulling off the road, or having a quickie before company, or sneaking off to a dressing room somewhere. There is no reason in the world why you can't have an affair with your wife or husband.

I don't know if this helps a soul but those are some things that rattled around in my head when I was reading this thread.

There is no reason in the world why you can't have an affair with your wife or husband.

A quote for the SI Hall of Fame (in a good way).

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 9:27 AM, July 3rd (Tuesday)]

RIO: Where are you and your WW on this issue now? You've been a member for a long time and might have discussed it in an earlier thread, but SI only lists posts back so far.

As a BS, I am hesitant to write anything, but I have a few thoughts having followed this thread.

Sex can be measured, so you had this much sex with OM, did these things with him? Compare that to what we did during the same time period. And come to the conclusion, you loved him more, more than you ever did me (because of the things they did together that weren't offered to me)

Drawing this conclusion assumes her love language is also sex, that that is the "commodity" with which she also bases the depth of your love for her, which it seems based on your earlier statements, is not true. I suspect pre A she likely looked to you for other things based on her love language, connection, random acts of kindness, things which spoke to her love language.

It seems to me as though the most hurtful piece for you is that your wife gave something to her AP which she didn't give to you, more sex, different sex etc. and you are trying to make the pieces fit logically as to why/how that could have been. What difference would it make if it did "make sense"? What would a different answer from her mean to you?

My WH love language is sex/intimacy. He didn't feel he received it at the frequency which was acceptable to him, so he sought out more, lots more, logical right? Supply and demand inequity, so he sought greater supply. Hurt me any less because it is mathematically logical? Nope.

Your W has given you her reasons for pursuing the A, for someone to value her, for connection etc. The sex was the price she had to pay to receive this validation. I suppose there are other reasons, as suggested here, but at the end of the day, you only really have what your W has told you as to her reasons. Does she have reason to lie to you? Maybe if she knows your line in the sand is "if you enjoyed it and wanted it, I can't stay". That possibility will always exist, but it is not what she is telling you.

My WH knows my line in the sand is if there was connection, love, feelings, I would be done. He wants to keep me, so no way he is going to admit that, even if it were true. It was all about the sex, period and hey, well that's logical too, so it must be true! I would suggest no WS wanting to R is ever going to admit he/she had the best sex with an AP. What we as BS have to decide is, am ok with that being a possibility? Based on the frequency and longevity in my case, all involved parties seemed to enjoy themselves immensely!

It sounds like your W is remorseful and has heard you and is trying to show her love for you based on the love language she knows you have. There will always be possibilities for alternate narratives and we have to live with those forever if choosing R.

[This message edited by hopeandhealing at 10:15 AM, July 3rd (Tuesday)]

I am going to be as kind about this as I can...

I am saying this in case it is helpful - do you want more sex? Then love on her without expectations. Foreplay is all day.

This is not good advice for a man whose wife has cheated on him. I understand what you're saying @hikingout, I really do, but this is NOT a dead bedroom forum.

How about as opposed to telling this guy to continue shoveling more coal into the furnace, that he stop completely? If his WW wants to stay in the marriage, maybe she can provide some fuel to get things going again? This REEKS of my XWW asking to be "pursued" by me after her third affair. No. Hard fucking no. If she can't generate the same enthusiasm for her husband for her husband as the AP, she probably isn't really wife material anyway.

There will always be possibilities for alternate narratives and we have to live with those forever if choosing R.

Very good point.

I am going to be as kind about this as I can...

I am saying this in case it is helpful - do you want more sex? Then love on her without expectations. Foreplay is all day.

This is not good advice for a man whose wife has cheated on him. I understand what you're saying @hikingout, I really do, but this is NOT a dead bedroom forum.

How about as opposed to telling this guy to continue shoveling more coal into the furnace, that he stop completely? If his WW wants to stay in the marriage, maybe she can provide some fuel to get things going again? This REEKS of my XWW asking to be "pursued" by me after her third affair. No. Hard fucking no. If she can't generate the same enthusiasm for her husband for her husband as the AP, she probably isn't really wife material anyway.

I can see where you are coming from here. I agree with you that it's the WW's responsibility to mend the fence so to speak.

A couple of things though...one, RIO says that is happening, that they are having more sex and that his wife has stepped up. I was just sharing a perspective that might help increase that goal further.

Second, in reconciliation, there is a stage that comes in which both sides have to evaluate what actions may be beneficial in order to rebuild the relationship. I probably would have been more sensitive to this if it had been you that was asking after you stating that your wife was on her third affair. But instead, my mind was more on the fact that we are on a similar time frame, and probably projecting a little of myself in RIO's wife that this was one affair, motivated by what sounds like similar things, and thinking she might be becoming more trustworthy and remorseful by the day.

In that scenario, and the fact this thread has many men saying they weren't getting enough sex, I do stand by making mention of this. If it doesn't help now, it could help in the future or in a future relationship. I can understand where you are coming from, and I agree with you, it's not RIO's fault (or any BS's fault) there was an affair, and it's not on them to fix it. But, at the same time, there comes a time (and if not now, it's not far down the pike) if the parties want to reconcile, then there is some work on both sides to get into a marriage they both want and work on. That is where it comes from. I would never suggest this to a new BS, or someone who is dealing with a serial cheater. I am suggesting this to a man who sees his love language as sex, and I was trying to adjust the picture to "try and see it as physical touch" without an agenda. I still believe that could have some results for him or other men here.

Overall though, you are right, this would not be good advice for all BH's in all circumstances, or at all stages.

Hiking: Agreed.