SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

There are many many sexually aggressive women out there. My fWH who is very handsome and fit has been sexually harassed by some of them during our married years. All of the NSA MOWs he met on CL and AM were the aggressors sexually.

They all said they were not being sexually satisfied by their BHs. At least one was looking to trade up her BH for a better financial situation (at my expense of course). NOTE: what MOW says to the AP is different than what she says to her BH as to what she is seeking.

Prior to our M, most women he dated came onto him first except for me and one other ex.

So this whole women are some kind of victim who get used and played by men is not an accurate portrayal or understanding. Non promiscuous women even understand this. Women are the ones in control in consensual encounters, as to whether sex occurs bottom line. Playing as the victim who is used for sex is a socially accepted way of trying to save face and the M.

Women understand the power they wield with sex and many use sex as a currency to get what they want. Many WWs also seem to enjoy NSA relationships just like many WHs do. The men typically get classified as sex addicts, not sure if the women get this label as much even though it applies to them too.

Bottom line the WWs are taking it physical because they want it to happen either for the sex itself or to use it as currency for whatever else they want. Some women (e.g. bunny boiler types)also feel a sense of ownership with a man once they've had sex and some think sex automatically bonds both. My fWH said he didn't feel any bonds or connections form just by having sex.

[This message edited by whattheh at 11:45 AM, June 30th (Saturday)]

Rideout,

I think the problem here is communication and in that regard your speaking in a different language. Anybody else feel like that way when they read this thread?

I'll PM you after I think about it some more. WW's club only here apparently. Apologies for the intrusion and I'll make my leave :).

Oh and......

I thought the transactional sex topic was very enlightening for me personally. Whoever brought that up, thank you. I'm too lazy to jump back through pages and figure that out right now but I know my search started with someone on this thread bringing it up.

I think the question shouldn't be why take it physical, but more, why do women feel like they shouldn't want sex, affair or not. Or why does she feel like she has to minimize the sex part?

Riditout

This is not from unqualified evil me but what I was told by two MC/IC with over 30 years of experience each in a very large metropolitan area and client lists in the thousands.

In private most women told them that they deeply regretted the affair but it was the most exciting thing they had done in their life.

As far as the sex. Some had best ever. Some very baf. Most were OK to good.

Most were mostly in it for the emotional part and said what your WW said.

I was told that although the act of sex was maybe not all that great physically, it was emotionally.

The sex enhanced the emotional connection which makes it little different than mind blowing sex.

The fact that your WW kept going back is significant and should not be minimized by you, our WW or anyone else.

You need to address this and come to acceptance in some way.

Don't drink the cool aid.

I think the question shouldn't be why take it physical, but more, why do women feel like they shouldn't want sex, affair or not. Or why does she feel like she has to minimize the sex part?

The first part, I can't answer. I assume it's because it's not that important to women, but, then again, the responses so far are all over the board.

The 2nd part is easy, because she knows that the sex part will be very important, probably the make/break for the BS. That is pretty consistent, it's the sex/sexual details/acts that often cause men to walk. I'm sure women know this, hence, minimization. Just like guys often minimize the emotional connection to the OW, because we know that's what is likely to bother of wives the most about the A. Thing is, often times there's not much to minimize there, I know of quite a few A's, and not many with any or much emotional connection from the man.

RIO,

I totally get where you are coming from with this thread. I too analyze the crap out of everything because I need to understand things. I've had a lot of conversations with my WW asking these types of questions, and usually come away with even more questions.

I am in the (relatively) unique position of having a serial-cheating WW who never actually got physical with anyone (verified by polygraph). This fact is important: she wanted to have sex with some of these guys, but that was not what was driving her. Here is her/our story, because I believe it may shed some light upon your inquiry.

My wife, from the beginning, always came across to me as a very serious, dedicated, intelligent woman with a good head on her shoulders. She was in law school when we married. The problem, unbeknownst to me, was that she was incredibly insecure. Her FOO issues, although not Jerry Springer-worthy, had caused her to crave validation. Her escape from emotionally abusive/neglectful parents was to concoct elaborate romantic fantasies in her head that ran almost constantly. If she wasn't focused on a specific task, she was in all probability fantasizing. You never would have guessed this if you met had met her. She was successful and driven. She was not sexually aggressive or manipulative, although she enjoyed sex.

When she worked as an attorney in the late 1990s, she latched onto another attorney in her office and he entered her fantasy world. She had a crush on him, is how she would describe it. This guy, about 15 years her senior, and her spent a lot of time in the office talking, in her estimation one to two hours per day. She wondered constantly whether or not he "liked" her. She thought that he did because he spent so much time talking to her, but he never said anything explicitly. When she began caretaking an elderly client's home after said client was moved into a nursing home, she had the idea that this was an opportunity to see if he "liked" her. It was a place they could have sex without anyone knowing. So she invented a plausible maintenance issue with the house and asked him to go there with her to investigate. She was hoping that he would come on to her and they would have sex. Not for the sake of sex, but because if he did, it would give her evidence that he "liked" her. It didn't happen, and she was disappointed. She continued to enjoy talking to him, because that provided her with enough ego kibbles to prove that he found her smart, funny, and interesting. She would have definitely had sex with this guy. It would have definitely become a full-on PA if he had made the move. But for her it wasn't about the sex, it was about feeling good enough.

HRO nailed it on page 2 with her incredibly honest post about why she engaged in sex. My wife was very attractive, but she was just as insecure as HRO, for other reasons.

In 2009 when my wife sex chatted for a month on FB with an old high school classmate, it was the same story. When he eventually ghosted her (because all he wanted was an orgasm), she regretted the sex chatting that she had enjoyed because in her mind it had ruined the relationship where they chatted about stuff and he made her feel smart, funny, and interesting.

Look. I know we use the word choice here a lot, and I believe that they did choose to engage in this behavior, but the choice that WSs make in many instances isn't a rational, calculated one. In my opinion it is comparable to the choice a heroin addict makes to score the next hit. Yes, they are accountable for their actions, but it's not productive to think that they are sitting down and doing a cost benefit analysis of their actions. I suppose some cheaters do that, but the vibe I get here is that many do not. You are the only one in a position to really determine if your wife matches mine as it relates to motivations. And even if she does, you are under no obligation to stay with her. She broke her vows to you and betrayed you, and for that she is fully accountable.

Dealing with my wife has been like fighting a cat in a bag. She continued to lie and TT me for years because confronting who she really was meant facing some ugly existential truths about herself.

For her, although sex or the desire to have sex was present, none of this was about the sex. It was about sating her insecurities about herself through other men. She is a very sexual person, and the sex would most likely have been acceptable, but even if it was unfulfilling she would have gone back to it. She would have gone back to it because of what it represented--someone found her worthy of their attention. If it had been awkward sex, if it had been "meh" sex, if it had been good sex, if it had been hanging from the chandelier donkey porn star sex, its value to her would have been the same. This guy finds me attractive, smart, and worthy.

One of the ugly truths that she has had to face is what you already know and have already explained very eloquently in this and other threads, however: it was all empty. Sex chat guy, who she got tons of ego kibbles from, just wanted to get his rocks off. If any of the others had had sex with her, it wasn't going to be because she was special, it was going to be because she let them.

I hope this helps you in some way brother. It still makes no rational sense, but I don't know that it ever will.

[This message edited by Gettingoveritall at 8:22 PM, June 30th (Saturday)]

Don't drink the cool aid

Rambler, RideItOut reaching his own decisions about his own life is not "drinking the cool aid." People reconciling is not "drinking the cool aid."

If believing what women have taken the time to post here is akin to allowing brainwashing, then you are stating YOU have all the answers and everyone else is a weak follower. Dude, that is so judgy and wrong-headed.

And not helpful to anyone.

To be honest Rambler, you sound jealous of men who decide to stay married and work on it. Maybe you should work on your own baggage instead of telling other men what to do ("don't drink the cool aid!") here?

Just watching out for you.

Wanting the best.

And you are clearly not in a good place.

This is not from unqualified evil me but what I was told by two MC/IC with over 30 years of experience each in a very large metropolitan area and client lists in the thousands.

Sir, I do not believe you and do not know why I should. Why don't you use those ICs to get your own help instead of focusing on why women do what they do? Good ICs already know to focus on that, so these ICs actually seems pretty incompetent. And they would never share how many clients they have! Lol!

You need a healthy support system.

I am worried about you, Rambler.

Please reach out for the support you need to heal.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 8:42 PM, June 30th (Saturday)]

Actually you made me smile with this.

I do no expect you to believe me. Really does not matter.

In the end RIO has to make his own decisions. All we can do is provide information or opinions to. Help him make it.

I am not sure why you all so offended. This is a different point of view and different information.

No where am I saying to R or D. I am hoping to get him to focus on the true issue so e can move forward and make a decision for what is best for him.

To minimize will only continue the pain.

This is a different point of view and different information

.

When you insult someone ("drinking the cool aid") as a way to get him/her to agree, it's more than a differing opinion.

Honestly, you are not a wayward wife and have zero expertise on this topic. You are not a woman, don't know how they feel, don't know how they feel when they cheat.

Your hurt does not make up for the fact that you do not know. It just means you need to heal.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 10:36 PM, June 30th (Saturday)]

Every man needs to know this: sex is as important to women as it is to men. The needs and wants for sex is as varied in women as it is for men. We frame it differently due to social constructs. We are taught to express (or not to express) it differently. However the end point is the same. Sex is important to human being. Period.

I'll tell you, for me, as a woman, sex is very important. I do not overtly talk about it with most people for the obvious social reasons. It has nothing to do with promiscuity, as my husband was my first partner ever, and even with him I held off until we were engaged. I do not let on how important it is, except to my husband. For a long time I used to be ashamed about what I wanted in sex and how important I felt it was to me. I tried to minimize it in my life. However, after all I have been through, I won't lie about that to myself anymore, and I don't want men believing that women just don't find sex as important.

It is very sexist to believe that women don't think sex is important. This thread is just full of misconceptions of women and sexuality, it could be a a source for a sociology study.

I’m not a WW, I’m a BW, but I also found out I had an EA before I even knew there was such a thing as an EA. I’d be lying if I said I never thought about what it was like to have an A.

Here’s the thing, the sex, I feel, would be a secondary thing. A bonus if you will. I would be looking to make a connection with someone. To get that feeling that came with meeting someone new, getting to know them and spending time with them. Having someone interested in you, wanting to get to know you, listening and talking with you. Just like dating. Do you remember what that feeling was like when you met someone new? The endorphins that gave you such a rush? I can see how the sexual aspect would follow. That’s a natural next step in a relationship, whether it’s morally okay to act on that is up to the individual.

I could not act to start a PA. That’s just me. I also feel that after I’ve now become a BS and know the pain, to have an A would be the worst kind of cruelty possible.

So out of all that rambling, yes women enjoy sex, but I feel the primary goal of an A, for most, is to make that connection and feel interesting, valued and appreciated.

I could not get to the physical part.

Every man needs to know this: sex is as important to women as it is to men

Says who?

Not me, that's for sure.

So please don't speak for all women.

Here’s the thing, the sex, I feel, would be a secondary thing. A bonus if you will. I would be looking to make a connection with someone.

Yep, totally me.

but I feel the primary goal of an A, for most, is to make that connection and feel interesting, valued and appreciated.

Exactly.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 11:27 PM, June 30th (Saturday)]

I read a study recently, but I can't remember where. It said that when women imagine having sex, they usually see it from their partner's point of view. In other words, they imagine how THEY look while having sex. While with men, this rarely happens.

In my mind, that was a big, "Tell me something I don't know."

Many, many women--not all--are more attracted to being sexually appealing than participating in something sexually appealing. We derive a lot of our self-esteem from that, much more so than pursuing quality sexual experiences. Just speaking to my friends, this is common. It's like we're always auditioning in our own minds.

When we think of sex, we see ourselves more than we feel ourselves.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 11:43 PM, June 30th (Saturday)]

OwningItNow, thankfully there are many women out there who aren’t as prudish, narrow minded and self righteous as your views of female sexuality. Your virtuous undertones towards emotional intimacy over sexual connection cries a poor self image. I am puzzled as to why you feel the need to speak for all women on behalf of their own sexuality based on your bleak views?

There are times I read some stuff you post and think to myself - “wow this woman has done some work”, but when it comes to genders and sexuality...well I wish you’d move beyond the ideology that has trapped you in tunnel vision.

Either way, if nothing else I hope you are at least capable of seeing the hypocrisy in telling a woman to not speak for all women and then continue speaking for all women.

Here’s the thing, the sex, I feel, would be a secondary thing. A bonus if you will. I would be looking to make a connection with someone.

Yep, totally me.

but I feel the primary goal of an A, for most, is to make that connection and feel interesting, valued and appreciated.

Exactly.

Quoted two people together, but, yes, this about verbatim what my W said when asked about the "why" for the PA part of the A. It wasn't the important thing, it was a bonus. She also has indicated the sex was to keep him interested and keep him around. I believe her for the most part, but have a lot of difficulty squaring that with what actually happened (sexually) during the A.

So, taking what's said above, the sex is a bonus. But, and I'm pretty sure women know this, the sex is the "big one" for many BH's. Let's use some numbers to illustrate. Let's say the EA portion of the A is +5 happiness points for the woman and -10 happiness points for the BH. It's going to hurt him badly, worse than it will make her happy (which is part of why A's are so offensive to us as a society, we know they make the world a less happy place). But now throw in the PA portion, the woman gets another +2 point of happiness from the sex, but the BH gets -100 points (speaking for myself here). This is truly awful trade, 98 points of happiness just evaporated from the world. Now, if we bring the male AP into the mix, yeah, he gets a lot of those 98 points of happiness that left the BH, so it's not an entirely negative system, but, I can tell you, without question, no sex I've ever had comes close to +98 points of happiness (assuming that's the amount of happiness I lost realizing and learning of my W's PA).

For my W, the PA portion, if she's to be believed, was "icing", it was a nice to have. In her telling of the story, she would have been entirely happy with just the EA portion. So why go further? Why do the things that would go from a "large bump" in the marital road (for me, no judgement on others dealing with EA's, we're all different, but my wife knew, no doubt, that it was the PA that would kill me) to a bomb going off? I have 0 mind movies about the EA stuff. No time spent anymore thinking about the lovey words. No endless questions in my head about the time stolen to TXT each other. Yes, I'm upset about it, but it's a -10 upset, not a -100. I'm pretty sure I never even would have found this board if my wife had an EA, I would have gone to some MC, figured out the problem, and tried to move on (correctly or not; I just don't think I would have been in enough pain to search out a resource like this).

Every man needs to know this: sex is as important to women as it is to men.

I don't believe this for a minute. Not if we're speaking in averages anyway. You personally, yes, of course, sex could be more important to you than it is to most men, me, or even any man alive today. Normal distributions do not, in any way, negate outliers as a possibility. And maybe if we broaden "sex" to mean "romance", OK I might get on board. But if we take sex as the literal meaning, PIV, between the sheets stuff. No, I doubt believe it, I'd bet a lot of money if there was some way to definitively measure it the numbers would shock most of us (how much higher the average male sex drive is than female). There are reams on research on this; how often males vs. females masturbate, think about sex, lesbian vs gay male sexual habits, sexual preference surveys. I've never seen a single one that's indicated that women are as sexually driven as men. And look around you, all you need to do is look at some social constructs (or ills) and see it bright as day. Men pay women for sex, women almost never pay men for it (so silly is the premise that movies, horrible movies I might add, were made about it). Female porn stars are paid many times what a male porn star is paid for the same acts. A husband "starving for sex" is such a common element as to be the stuff of sitcoms. Are there some women out there with a "male equivalent" sex drive? Are there men out there with a very low sex drive? Same answer, of course. If you take 100 men and 100 women randomly and ask them questions about their sex drive, are the men's results going to be markedly higher across the board than the woman's? Yes, somewhere between significantly and dramatically so, and we've done this research, so you can actually see it for yourself if you'd like.

It is very sexist to believe that women don't think sex is important. This thread is just full of misconceptions of women and sexuality, it could be a a source for a sociology study.

As you said it, I agree. But, if you make a tiny change (which is what I've said in many threads" from "is important" it "is AS important as men" then it's a different statement and one that I do not agree with. Is sex important to women? Yes, I think it is to some, perhaps many/most. Is it as important as it is to most of their H's? No, I don't think it is.

OwningItNow, thankfully there are many women out there who aren’t as prudish, narrow minded and self righteous as your views of female sexuality. Your virtuous undertones towards emotional intimacy over sexual connection cries a poor self image. I am puzzled as to why you feel the need to speak for all women on behalf of their own sexuality based on your bleak views?

Bleak? I don't see bleakness there, I see honesty. She's one of the few posters who's explained things in a way that line up with what I've experienced in my personal life. What does having sex because she likes to see her H enjoy it have to do with being prudish or self-righteous? It's what she likes, and, honestly, I understand that; it's one of the reasons I like to make my wife orgasm, I like to see her enjoy it and it makes me feel good about myself. Now, that's not at all the reason that I have sex, but, at the same time, I can understand her motivations because those are my motivations as well, just not my primary motivation.

IMHO, society has done us a disservice in both directions. Years ago, women were told not to enjoy sex at all, it was only for the man, and they were just there to provide. That's not the right answer. Now, we have the message that men and women are the same, we have sex for the same reasons and are more similar than we are different. That's also not the right answer, IMHO. Even a cursory examination of either message cannot hold up to any level of discussion; of course women enjoyed sex 75 years ago! Vibrators came about and sold like crazy for many years when women weren't supposed to enjoy sex. Did everyone just have really sore shoulders back then? Doctors used to provide "treatments" for women who were experiencing hysteria. Orgasms feel good, I think we can all agree on that, and that hasn't evolved into our species in the last 100 years, so, I think it's safe to say that my grandmother probably enjoyed sex.

Rideitout, I’m curious as to why your opinion is that the PA part is so much harder for men. I’m not saying I disagree, while it hurts like hell, I find the PA of H A to not be as hurtful as the EA part. The thought of the closeness, her knowing intimate things about H, the secrets.....that’s what kills me. Sex is sex and I know how that works so there’s no big secret there as to what happened, but the emotional side cuts like a knife.

Do you think this is just the differences in men & women?

I am not wayward, and I am a woman saying sex doesn't mean its about the sex. So, no, rambler, it isn't WW club only.

Also, my WS had a dozen plus APs. He caught "feelings" for one. They only kissed. What he did with her really doesn't hurt. You know what hurts? That he put his penis in over a dozen other women multiple times. That they bounced all over his body, that I thought was reserved for me. That he touched their breasts, put his mouth on them.

These men need to get off their horses. A PA hurts no matter your gender. They aren't snowflakes experiencing anything worse than any other BS.

If anything, this thread proves that the topic of sexuality is vastly different for everyone. Even if you don't agree, it is good to get so many differing views on it.

I believe there is a lot of value in the viewpoints being presented. (Even if they piss you off.) Women have differing views from men and even between themselves, men have differing views... it goes on and on.

I am female and have never cheated, I really can only speak for myself IF I were going to have an affair. I imagine the past hurt caused by my WH would send me in search of someone who would say the right things and soothe my soul. That would probably get me into bed with them willingly. I did not actually seek a RA...although I thought about it A LOT.

Pretty much every opinion here can be called out as a *generalization* but isn't valuable to have the conversation? I have gained some insight into this topic just on the differing opinions alone. In the end, I doubt we'll solve the problem of infidelity.