SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

He will never be a FORMER cheater.

RHR,

I could never understand why people use the word “Former”... a cheater is either a cheater and will ALWAYS be labeled that way or they are not. What is this “Former”?... you are 8 years out and you won’t put that “F” in front of WH... why do you feel so strongly about this? (I’m very curious because I no matter how sorry, a cheater will always be a cheater to me... why? Because they put my life and my child/children in danger with their selfishness. There is just so much a BS can forgive....)

He cheated thus he is a cheater. He will never be a FORMER cheater.

Amen to this^^^ I agree 100% (myself included)

[This message edited by crazyblindsided at 11:48 AM, July 17th (Tuesday)]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I get this, too. Some people are black and white thinkers. Nothing wrong with that.

Then there are people that are more gray thinkers and are able to think more expansively.

There is nothing wrong with either kind of thinker, we just see things from different perspectives.

You have

no right to expec

t not to be hurt, betrayed or offended

That is what you said, but-We ALL have a RIGHT to EXPECT to not be betrayed or hurt or raped or murdered or be treated badly.

I did NOT say that I am delusional into thinking it can't or won't happen-clearly I know better or I wouldn't be on this site.

What I am saying is that I disagree with what you said-and that WE ALL HAVE THE RIGHT TO EXPECT TO NOT BE BETRAYED BY THE PERSON THAT PROMISED TO FORSAKE ALL OTHERS, TO LOVE HONOUR AND OBEY(OR IN MY CASE BE FAITHFUL TO

We have that RIGHT. We live in free countries with rights and have the right to expect to be treated better-hence laws, grounds for divorce etc.

We have the RIGHT to expect not to be raped.....yes it happens but if we didn't have the right to expect it not to happen, then it wouldn't be illegal in the first place.

Akin to pinky swearing.

We should all feel deeply disappointed, sad, and betrayed. But divorce and cheating are all around us. Ignoring that is never wise. It's more like willful denial. It us not fun to be just another statistic, but it was always possible. Not probable, but certainly possible.

Really, do you see your vows as pinky swearing? I guess I see marriage a lot differently than a lot of people. It is a legal contract. Pinky swearing is not.

In what part of my statement do you consider willful denial....the part where I expected my husband who made a legal promise to me to not cheat to actually stick to that? Did you not expect that your partner would not cheat? Please enlighten me as what me willful denial is?

Expecting someone not to cheat and being delusional in not thinking it could happen are two completely different things.

Do you honestly believe that people should enter into marriage without the expectation of faithfulness? Why say the vows?

^^ Agree

To address the subject of this thread directly, I am disgusted by cheaters but not tired of them. By that I mean I have gained some perspective from some of the WW's on the Wayward forum and offered some advice when they asked for feedback from BH's. I feel very strongly that infidelity affects men and women very differently and that it's important for a WW to understand what her BH is feeling from another BH's point of view...if she wants to.

[This message edited by ISurvived7734 at 1:33 PM, July 17th (Tuesday)]

He cheated thus he is a cheater. He will never be a FORMER cheater.

Huh?

Very gently, if you do not think redemption is possible, I urge you to consider that you're saying more about yourself than about the people you condemn.

Its says nothing about them.

If you believe in redemption and "former" cheater that's okay.

If you don't Thats okay too. Same with forgiveness...which I don't give either.

There are several members...myself included...who don't believe in "former" cheaters. My husband did that. It can't be undone. It will forever leave a scar.

What it says about me is that I HAVE grace, strength & peace to offer R to someone who has broken their vows.

[This message edited by prissy4lyfe at 6:17 PM, July 17th (Tuesday)]

Believe what you will,. But it won't protect you. We need to protect ourselves. Need vulnerable, but cautious. Understand that these things are out of your control.

I can’t understand this or how someone can say something like this. We put EVERYTHING, out ALL into someone (spouses) and into something (marriages)... 10,15,20,40+ years... we TRUST them to be there for us, to PROTECT us... to not cause us pain. When you NEVER in a million years expect someone to commit such HAINOUS crimes against you, how do you tone down the vulnerability, amp up the caution?? We didn’t sign up for unbearable pain.

Very gently, if you do not think redemption is possible, I urge you to consider that you're saying more about yourself than about the people you condemn.

You missed the part where she’s 8 years out. Extended grace and mercy. This isn’t about redemption. So if she believed in redemption she would call him “FORMER WH” and not a boba fide Cheater right?? Because well, he redeemed himself, so therefore he is a “FORMER CHEATER”.... that’s such an oxymoron. “Former cheater”... they are still a CHEATER. Putting “FORMER” in front of “CHEATER” doesn’t change the fact that they are a cheater...

A zebra can’t change its stripes... a cheater can’t change the fact that they cheated... redemption has nothing to do it.

RHR has a right to her opinion. As does Prissy... and I second that as well

I am not saying this to upset anyone and am not trying to speak for anyone. Everyone has a right to their feelings and opinion.

What I feel we have here is more a case of semantics than a real argument.

I know some of these BS's, from these forums, that say they will not put an "F" in front of their "cheaters" label. And what I know from these strong women is that they would not tolerate an active cheater.

So, when one says "cheater" oftentimes the person hearing/reading those words would need a qualifier there. I.E., if someone says "my cheater husband" I am thinking he is an active cheater. I think that is what most would think. By putting the "F" in front of the "label" you are qualifying that they are not an active cheater. Short cut = an "F". Or, former cheater, or FWS. jmo

I’ve said before, I prefer to use the term reformed rather than former. If you look up the definition of reformed, I feel it fits beautifully without diminishing the impact or scarring from previous choices.

you are 8 years out and you won’t put that “F” in front of WH... why do you feel so strongly about this?

SoulCrushed16:

If I murdered an individual but I sit in jail and behave nicely for 8 years, never committing another crime, does that make me a former murderer? NO

I gave birth to a child. If that child decides she never wants to see me or speak with me again and I am no longer able to parent her, does that make me a former mother? NO

If my WH did not want to be put into the category of a full-fledged cheater, then he should not have made the choice to cheat. It's REALLY that simple. I refuse to lessen the severity of his crime, no matter how much he has changed, by classifying him as a former cheater. Again, he cheated thus he is a cheater. SMS, I am a black and white thinker, always have been.

Very gently, if you do not think redemption is possible, I urge you to consider that you're saying more about yourself than about the people you condemn.

Sisoon:

Redemption : the act of making up for.

When a person (ie: my WH) hurts me and my children THAT bad, there is NOTHING he can do to make up for THAT. Cheating is beyond redemption.

What does that say about me? I don't take shit.

ETA: SMS: My WH is not an active cheater but I do not include the F because when I see the FWH I read into that,

"Yes, I married a cheater BUT he's not an asshole anymore, and I don't believe he is actively cheating, so I forgive him"

Sorry, my WH falls into the category of a cheater and will never be forgiven for that.

[This message edited by RidingHealingRd at 2:37 AM, July 18th (Wednesday)]

What I feel we have here is more a case of semantics than a real argument.

I know some of these BS's, from these forums, that say they will not put an "F" in front of their "cheaters" label. And what I know from these strong women is that they would not tolerate an active cheater.

I agree. And I think that is true of over half of the arguments about everything in the world we live in these days.

As for me, when I talk about my H, most of the time I just refer to him as my H, not FWS, or a cheater or any of that. We definitely had a very bad year in our marriage, but if I were going to make the fact that he cheated the focus of his being and a label I always made sure I apply any time I think about him or mention him, divorce would be far preferable. And I'm not saying that is the wrong decision, either. I divorced my first H and it was definitely the right thing for me to do.

Huh?

Very gently, if you do not think redemption is possible, I urge you to consider that you're saying more about yourself than about the people you condemn.

sisoon, I don't think that this is an issue of redemption for some people. I for one, agree with the statement.

A cheater doesn't ever become a non-cheater. A murderer doesn't ever become a non-murderer. People can and do redeem themselves all of the time, but I don't believe that the stain of betrayal of that magnitude is something that can be wiped away.

SoulCrushed16:

If I murdered an individual but I sit in jail and behave nicely for 8 years, never committing another crime, does that make me a former murderer? NO

I gave birth to a child. If that child decides she never wants to see me or speak with me again and I am no longer able to parent her, does that make me a former mother? NO

If my WH did not want to be put into the category of a full-fledged cheater, then he should not have made the choice to cheat. It's REALLY that simple. I refuse to lessen the severity of his crime, no matter how much he has changed, by classifying him as a former cheater. Again, he cheated thus he is a cheater. SMS, I am a black and white thinker, always have been.

I agree with you 100% RHR!!

I also am a black and white thinker. Gray areas don’t exist to me. It either IS or It is NOT.

Slight t/j and posting as a member.

I am further out too. You might notice that when I refer to my W I don't call her my former wayward wife anymore.

She is just my W now. She earned that right over many years in my eyes. I think that the grace I have extended her has been paid back to several times over. She respects and honors that grace in many ways. It doesn't make it go away, but it does take the hurt down several notches.

JHMO. At some point, if you want to R or at least be out from under the infidelity curse, you have to lay down your sword and shield. You have to remove the walls that you rightfully put there after Dday and give the M an honest chance. The resentment and anger really do hurt you more in the long run. It robs you of enjoying your life. If it is more miserable to be M than single then I think the answer is clear.

You don't forget about it for sure. You don't extend grace to someone who doesn't need it. You don't forgive someone who did nothing wrong. It is still in your thoughts but the internal process moves from a place of anger to one of almost pity. For the rest of our M my W knows what she did. She knows why she did it and it will always be a part of the past. I could hold that over at any time. She knows that. However I don't because it doesn't gain me anything. Anything that came before it is now viewed in a more realistic light. I don't blindly trust anyone anymore, but you know what? It was stupid of me to do that in the first place. I am a hell of a lot smarter than that. Well on most days.

The thing to explore is what does holding this over somebody ever gain you ? Really, really think about it.

If your spouse is refusing to do the work nothing you do or say will make them. The "work,' is only effective if they want to change. If they don't then you have to examine what you are able to live with. Even if you stay M for a host of other reasons then maybe it becomes a longer term exit strategy. Or maybe even renegotiating what defines the M.

The worst thing is doing nothing and spending your life in parent child relationship. You know, where one is always in the "right" because they hold the trump card that allows them the moral high ground. It causes resentments and makes the harder things in life that much worse. If a WS doesn't feel like they can ever address anything in M why even care ? Why work at a better M? If they tried and saw no improvements where is the motivation? Further yet maybe they revert to old habits that leads them to seek further hurtful behaviors. Selfishness then becomes what is mine and yours versus ours. That sounds more like a D than a M to me.

A M that a WS feels invested in is a whole lot better for both of you than one that you feel you "have to be in." Even if you have to be in a M for practical reasons why not try to play the hand you are dealt ? There isn't any more cards coming.

Numbanddumb,

From the full expanse of my heart, thank you. That is exactly where I’m heading now. I can see the edges of it solidifying.