SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Falc, step back and look at what you have posted.

This journey is a one-sided trip, with you doing all the pleading and grovelling. Even though you try to do the 180, it seems to be a half-assed attempt.

Why do I say this? It is not to hurt you, but looking at your texts objectively, you are letting her control you. You are the one that is keeping yourself in misery, by using hopium non-stop.

You are Hoping that she will come back to you. You are Hoping that she will love you again. You are Hoping that she will turn around, and be the girl you fell in love with.

Sorry to say this, but Hopium addles the brain. It makes you think in strange and illogical ways, and it is addictive, as you will need to use more and more, until you get the desired outcome. If the desired outcome does not materialize, you add more, until you are completely spent.

Wean yourself off this. It will be a real downer, and you will probably feel awful trying to get over it. A Hopium user is unattractive, as they reek of desperation, and desperation never wears well on a person.

Step back, look at what you want, truely. No, the end point is not getting your WW back. That would just be a by-product of what you want in life.

Your one true goal, as a lot of other posters have mentioned, is to get out of Infidelity. This will lead on to a better, less complicated life (unless you are also addicted to Drama in your life). The tried and true rule of K.I.S.S still stands.

The texts that you have sent still give her some power over you, as you are responding to her questions, and not you directing the conversations. You want control over the conversations? Don't answer. Don't keep in contact, as there is no need to (since the joint bank account is already empty, and you have already given her the answer why that is so).

If she is truely remorseful, her further contact to you will change in tune, from 'her'-centric messages, to ones that are more empathic in tone and content.

So, to end this, ask yourself this question; 'why am I so keen to win back someone that is causing me all this pain?'

Falk

I still insist that you are making your situation too complex.

NC is great if you have a direction – a course. Right now you don’t.

What this leaves you with is you sitting in one corner threatening to hold your breath until she complies with your wishes (that she doesn’t have a clear view or what they are) and she’s sitting in the other corner threatening to hold her breath until you comply with her wishes – that you are equally unclear on.

You both act as if you are divorcing without divorcing. You both act as if you are married without being married.

Because you aren’t talking then you are reading net-activity, diagnosing wording and comments, sending ambiguous messages and basically reading chicken innards and tea-leaves to better “understand” what you really mean…

My advice? Don’t know why I bother…. As you might get from my tone then I’m a bit pissed-off about you. I don’t think you are going to follow this advice any more than you have basically followed any of the 16 pages of advice offered to-date. You are going to go to therapist #1 and when you don’t like what he says you will go to #2 and when you don’t like what he says to this forum and when you don’t like what we say…

My advice? From the bottom of my heart and based on EXTENSIVE experience?

My advice with ONLY your best intentions in mind?

Go back to my 4 questions back on page 5 on this thread.

If YOUR answer to #1 is yes then phone her and ask her the questions.

If your answer is no then go file.

If her answer to any of the questions is NO then file.

If her answer to #3 and 4 has a “but” in it then hash that out, but then EITHER commit to the marriage OR commit to divorce.

I asked her on the phone about what we can do to heal our marriage. I got a lot of 'I don't knows'. She's willing to talk to a marriage counselor by herself, which might be good. I don't know.

The problem I have about going NC is that usually the two spouses are in the same house. My spouse is 2000 miles away. So, the situation is complex. The marriage counselor (who has healed 40 couples dealing with infidelity) is erring on the side of more contact, rather than NC because of the distance. There is no right way to navigate this, there is no way to perfectly navigate it so she comes back. I am focusing on keeping busy right now.

EDIT - Why am I so keen to win back someone who is causing me so much pain? To answer, I don't know. I love her, I really do. Maybe I have codependency issues which I am exploring in therapy. Right now, I am not a strong person. I've been in relationships for the last decade of my life pretty much with a 3 month gap.

[This message edited by Falc at 10:27 AM, October 15th (Monday)]

There is no right way to navigate this, there is no way to perfectly navigate it so she comes back.

And this is your entire problem in one sentence. You are trying to "navigate" this so she comes back. All of the advice you are getting here is designed to get you out of infidelity. She might come back, she might not, but you will not be in this condition any longer. You want her back more than you want to be out of infidelity so there is a good chance she will come back because she needs a place to live but she won't have given up her boyfriend.

Your situation isn't complex.

It's straight out the cheaters handbook.

Ignore our advice at your own peril.

Your best chance to save your marriage

is to listen to us.

You best be willing to lose your marriage

in order to save it.

Why am I so keen to win back someone who is causing me so much pain?

You are trying to win her back so you are taking responsibility now for "losing" her to the other guy. This is not your fault. She has a problem. I feel sorry for you. You are going to get walked on over and over like this.

Falc

Your last answer goes a long way to confirm what I said.

Notice I never told you to divorce your wife?

I did mention that IF her answer to the first question was that she didn’t want to remain married then inevitably you had to terminate the marriage. But I also left the path open for the OTHER option. That if she told you she WANTED the marriage then you two could work on the next three questions.

I’m not naïve enough to think that four yeses are all you need. But if she tells you she wants the marriage then you two have a basis to work from. If she tells you she doesn’t… well… YOU have a basis to work from.

Falk – seeing two professionals and then soliciting advice from a forum that has MORE experience that ANY shrink and then thinking that NONE OF IT applies… That’s just plain and simple dumb.

I hear you Bigger, I do. I am a weak person and I need to find my strength. I think there is a glimmer of hope in that she's willing to talk to my MC. The hope might even be that he helps her realize she really wants to D and so we can move forward. I don't know. MC wants me to keep texting her, keep the lines of communication open since she's so far away. I seriously don't know how I feel about that, it makes me feel pathetic. She said that she was mad at me for not reaching out the past 2 weeks but I don't understand why. I sent her a card for her bday tomorrow, nothing mushy just 'Happy Birthday - <name>'. I am not discounting anything said here. I think that for me, to move on, I need to know in my heart that I did everything I could which includes reaching out to her. We spoke on the phone and she said a lot of 'I dont know' when I asked her about what we can do to save the marriage.

I think that in terms of my meeting her next week when I'm in town, I might just break it down to her like this:

1. I'm going NC, I need to get my thoughts in order. It makes me feel like shit when I try and talk to her.

2. If she's still talking to this guy (which she is) there is nothing to talk about.

3. I'm not going to wait for her but I will be okay and I will continue on with my life.

4. If she is not wearing my Mom's ring, I'd like it back. If she is wearing it, I'd like it back if I decide to D.

I really appreciate the support and advice. I really do, please don't think otherwise.

counselors do not “heal” couples.

couples that are willing to go thru the very hard recovery process with the intention of the very hard reconciliation process become healed through their words and their actions.

gently, you have none of that.

Your WW agreeing to talk to a MC is nothing more than appeasement to you with zero intention of following through. How many times must she clobber you over the head with a 2x4 before the reality sinks in that she's not interested in R? Seriously, it's time to put your big boy pants on and man up here. All of this vacillation is painful to watch.

Actually,there is a wrong way to go about this.

You're begging. You're doing the Pick Me dance.

Wrong. Way.

She was mad you didn’t call? She asked for time and space. You were giving it to her!

I understand what you are saying about wanting to make sure you tried everything. I’m all for puttting it all on the line for the woman you love.

But at some point you will have to listen to what she is telling you.

You are getting good advice here. People have seen and lived through what you are experiencing now. Some day I hope you are able to help newly betrayed that show up here the same way you are being helped.

So next week, if you meet with her, ask her your questions. But the first one should be Bigger’s first question, “do you want to be married to me”.

If the answer is I DONT KNOW, then take that as a “polite” no. Tell her you are taking it as a no, and that you won’t bother her anymore. Ask for the ring back, if she won’t give it, leave it for the lawyer to negotiate.

But remember Falc. If you get a YES, as I mentioned a few pages back, that’s about 1% of what you need.

You would still need her to do “the work”. You’d still need her to give up her online life. You’d still need her to live withing the boundaries of a relationship. You’d still need her to show she’s Remorseful for hurting you. You’d still need her to develop a plan to make you feel safe In the future. You’d need her to admit the other guy was an affair. You’d need her to stop hiding things, everything, from you. You’d need to start building a life together where you enjoy things together, communicate your needs and desires and show a real interest in ensuring each other’s happiness.

That’s the other 99%. Saying YES means almost nothing. If the other 99% doesn’t follow, then it was almost better to have heard NO.

Keep posting....

[This message edited by Stevesn at 1:57 PM, October 15th (Monday)]

Thank you Steve. I agree, it will most likely be 'I dont know'.

You are enabling her to string you along like this.

File for divorce. If you need to, you can stop the process. She needs to be snapped out of this.

First, I'm sorry this happened to you. I know it hurts tremendously and it's a shitty situation to be in.

You keep saying how weak and pathetic you feel. When you feel weak and crappy about what you're doing it means you should be doing the opposite. You're not being true to yourself.

As a woman, I would lost respect for a man that was still being nice to me after I cheated him, even if he made mistakes in our relationship. I'm sure it's the same for men too. We all are attracted to and respect a partner that has boundaries and stands up for themselves - doesn't put up with our shit.

She should be begging you to give her a chance - that's also probably the only way she wouldn't do it again.

I don't think those texts where you tell her you won't get into things until she commits to the marriage seem strong. It sounds like you're just waiting around for her.

I suspect you have low self-esteem, are afraid to be alone and are easily manipulated, thus the self-blame. I know it's harder said than done, but you've got to focus on becoming a stronger person that doesn't put up with this shit. She's not the least bit remorseful or fighting for you. It's not going to work out.

[This message edited by strawberrypie at 3:17 PM, October 15th (Monday)]

I think the IC is right, if you both want to R then NC is just going to make things worse. I do agree with the MC on that point. You cannot R if you don't talk.

BUT

Is she even a candidate for R? Is there anything she is doing (not saying) that gives you the idea she has any thought about R. These are the facts. She left, she blames you for everything that is wrong, she is still regularly communicating with her AP. She didn't contact you until the money ran out. The blame shifting is non-stop. There is nothing about her that is really giving you any hope of R. She will talk to the MC but without you. Probably so she can drag you through the mud and you can't defend yourself.

NC with her is not to R, its to give you separation because this is not headed to R, and it is all her choice. She is looking for excuses to D, but she is not brave enough to just tell you. She is going to drag you through the dirt to force you to file, because she won't. As she sees it if she pulls the trigger its about the A. She wants it to be about you.

If you go back and read through your thread, where has she given you any real hope that R is in the cards for her? She is just messing with you. Probably trying to get you mad enough so that you will say something that helps her justify leaving.

She wants space, but when you give it to her that's wrong, She is setting up a no win situation for you. Every communication is her justifying to herself her decision to leave.

Talking to her is not going to fix this because she doesn't want it fixed. She says that in every communication and by her actions. She just doesn't want you to be able to claim it was her A that caused the D. She wants it to be about you. The more you talk to her, the more ammunition she has, so NC is what you need. That and some papers sent her way. Have the lawyer request the return of your mothers ring.

If you meet her (and I wouldn't) it could be a trap so take a VAR with you. She wants this to all be about you and she will more than likely play some wicked games to get her point made.

I asked her on the phone about what we can do to heal our marriage. I got a lot of 'I don't knows'. She's willing to talk to a marriage counselor by herself, which might be good. I don't know.

She's doing the bare minimum to keep you on the hook. She tosses crumbs and you gobble them up.

Reading this is nauseating. Sorry to be blunt. But this behavior is so cliched. Your situation is not unique. Both of you are acting in a manner that we've all seen countless times. I'm not telling you this to offend you. But you need to wake up.

She's manipulating you. It's all about control for her. She isn't suitable for R.

It doesn't matter that you love her. She doesn't want to put effort into fixing the M. And you can't make her want to either. She's her own person and act as she wants. You're hoping she'll somehow wake up and see the error of her ways.

You can't control her. But you CAN control how you want to live YOUR life. And that should be out of infidelity.

Falc, you're not weak. You're a man who has just been brutally betrayed by the woman he loves and had his world turned upside down. It hasn't sunk in that this is who she is. The person you thought she was isn't real. This is something you have to come to grips with.

She's been setting the terms so far. She moved 2,000 miles away, and she's mad at you for not calling her for two weeks? Let that sink in a bit. She's used to you pursuing her. The problem is that she's changed all the rules without your input. Let her know you're willing to R, but she needs to participate as well. She broke the marriage. She needs to be a lot more engaged in order for you to be able to determine if she's even worth reconciling with.

You all are completely correct. She hasn't given any signs that she wants to R. I appreciate the bluntness. She got a job as a GM of a sandwich shop so she's putting down some roots. I am still in the BS fog, I know you all have been through this and it's pretty much textbook from both sides. I am sorry that I am not immediately doing what you all are saying I should do. I truly am. I am sorry.

My WH attended MC and IC, we spent £500 only to find out last week that he had still been carrying on (3rd time of finding out). Myself and the MC were pretty pissed at the waste of all our time and money. Agreeing to attend means they are willing to do what you want but not that there is any real commitment to R.

I am now separated and feel so much freer and better for it. Do what you need to - you can do better!