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I just reread most of your thread. I think your hopium is killing you. You are trying to get someone ... one of your IC's, SI, her father, your father, your WW... someone to tell you that they see signs she wants the marriage. But, everything is pointing that she doesn't.

Please look at her actions... not her words.

You tried giving her space (to decide if she wanted to stay married) after you caught her cheating the first time. She used that time to continue cheating and lies about their continued contact. Once you catch her she quits her job, takes ALL her stuff, and moves in with her parents... but says it's for space not so she can cheat (she continues to cheat).

What about the episode with the Packers game. When you tell her that it's fine for the family to come over and watch the game together but that you want to talk to her about the marriage after the game... she calls you manipulative and throws a fit?!?

She kicks you off of her chat server, deletes your pics off of Instagram, tells friends and family that you are controlling. She tells you that you can text but not often and not about how you are improving for the marriage??? then tells you that she's mad because you weren't texting her???

She tells you that she wasn't calling you because it causes her too much stress but... has no problem calling and throwing fits when you start removing her from accounts. She doesn't seem to have anxiety about contacting you when she doesn't like what you are doing.

She doesn't want to talk to you about the house, money, debt, because it makes her feel bad and because you are making her feel bad you are abusive. When you use all the money to pay off bills she throws the Divorce card out there.

"I don't have money to buy tampons or food" pure manipulation... she's moved in with her folks, she quit her job. You've told her numerous times you are ready to work on the marriage but... she wants to live at her folks and (at least virtually) be with OM. The only things that she has shown any emotion over were - you telling people she's cheating and you using money to pay off bills. She should be fighting tooth and nail to win you back. She was telling some stranger online all the sexual things she wanted to do to him, sending him nude shots (video?) begging for a visit. She's shown no remorse, she doesn't care what you are going through.

She wont move back, doesn't want to talk about issues, doesn't want to hear how you are improving, wont see an IC, still wants access to funds, telling friend and family about how awful you are, doesn't like that you are telling people about her sexting.

I think your wife is very manipulative and immature. Her plan was to move out (with your financial support) and focus on OM full time until she was either able to visit or move in with him.

Should you meet with her? That's up to you. I have a feeling that if you don't this hopeium/limbo will drag on indefinitely.

If you meet with her follow Biggers list of questions. Point blank - Do you want to stay married? I don't know is a no.

What else could it be? She doesn't know if OM and her are going to work out? That's a no to marriage with you. She doesn't know if she will like supporting herself or living with her parents? That's a no to marriage with you.

Are you still paying for her phone/streaming?

Is there a chance she might have filed and you will be served when you meet her?

[This message edited by Freeme at 3:05 PM, October 18th (Thursday)]

I don't think she will file as she can't afford a lawyer. But it's possible. I am not paying for her phone.

You are right though, all her actions point to the fact that the marriage is over. I think the MC convinced her to talk to me, but that is it. Could be appeasement, or he might've convinced her to be honest with me and meet with me so she can say the marriage is over. Regardless, I feel like absolute dogshit today. Just playing shit over in my head non-stop and trying to focus on work. Mindlessly refreshing this site has become sort of a refuge for me.

It's sort of the calm before the storm. You know what's coming, you try to put it out of your mind. But doesn't change the fact that it's still coming. Like I said, my hopium is killing me but I know full well what to expect from this meeting. At the very least, a 'I don't want this marriage' and at the most I get served. I honestly don't think she will serve me, I think she is still stuck in the mindset that Im the controlling, manipulative one and she's waiting for me to do it.

When you meet her please don't grovel when she says I don't know

I think she is still stuck in the mindset that I'm the controlling, manipulative one and she's waiting for me to do it.

Just so you know you aren't controlling and manipulative...she is. She is just painting you this way so that it makes her feel better about her cheating. In rereading your posts she does a lot of telling you one thing, her doing the other, then acting disgusted at you for something from the past. Your in a no win situation trying to convince her to stay married while she is manipulating everything you say and do so that it can be used against you.

You deserve someone that loves you and treats you well. You deserve someone so much better than this girl.

Yeah and her depression just makes things worse for me since I can't win at all, and she just tries to make me feel bad constantly. It is an awful situation, and hopefully through IC I can find some sort of strength. I have a lot to offer someone and sometimes I don't see it (well, most of the time after this shit happened). I don't know why I don't want to give up on her, something is telling me to hold on. Maybe I'm a pussy, maybe it's because I am loyal to a fault. I don't know. One thing I want to make clear is that I value everyone's advice on here, that I am taking it to heart. Even if I am not acting on it right away, please see that I am valuing it and I have done a lot of things to separate myself from her that shouldn't be discounted.

Maybe I'm a pussy, maybe it's because I am loyal to a fault.

Just stop that right now.

You can't prove your manhood, or that you are good person, by measuring how much you are willing to tolerate. Sometimes you have to decide to cut your losses and walk away. You have outgrown your wife emotionally and spiritually.

Let go of the control of this situation. Save yourself!

Falc, you sound a lot like me in my post (Emotional affair and possibly physical). It took me a few months and I sometimes still have moments of hopium that my WW will snap out of it and realize what she’s doing. However she just keeps moving forward in her affair and shows no signs of remorse. I held off for over a month from seeing my attorney to file but after I found out she introduced the OM to her friends and family I filed. Papers came and she had no reaction other than being mad that I didn’t want to do mediation (crazy I know right). All the advice on here is spot on, you need to file and move on with your life for the better. I didn’t trust any of this forums advice until I started noticing everything they were saying was happening right in front of me. From one newbie to another, you need to file and move on it’s the only way to get to a better place.

Thank you FinanceGuy. I know the situation, I guess you found your anger and you hit your breaking point once she was parading OM around town. This meeting with her next week will probably be my last straw. She messaged me saying 'Tell me you didn't try to log into my accounts' and sent me a screenshot of an Instagram password reset email from yesterday. I told the truth, 'When the shit first started happening, yes. As early as yesterday, no".

There is absolutely no remorse at all. It's fucking crazy to me. Absolutely insane.

It's sort of the calm before the storm.

But you know what, after the storm you will be ok. And while the storm will be bad it won't be as bad you think.

We (at least most of us) have tried to "win her/him back" or fight for the marriage".

But you can't do it on your own, you just can't. She has walked away, will she come back? Not for the foreseeable future.... And if she did there's a 2% chance you'd stay together because the issues that caused her to bail this time will still be there...

You want her back but she's a ghost of the woman that you loved. I wish you luck and hope you get the ring back.

ETA - I'd be surprised if she filed, Mom and Dad would pay for it but doesn't have to be the state that you have legal residency?

[This message edited by MickeyBill2016 at 5:51 PM, October 18th (Thursday)]

Falc, I really dont think you need to find your anger to proceed. Just go forward because its the right way to proceed. The anger will catch up to you. In the meantime you wont get steamrolled by your wife in the process. That steamrolling can come from different avenues. It could be legal, finances, credit, etc. But you will already taken all the neccesary steps to protect yourself and youll be further ahead and firmly in the driver seat. It doesnt seem like a big deal now , but it will when the times come. Besides you will be moving out of fidelity and you will start to see things clearly.

If something happens and your wife becomes a candidate for R, you can always stop the process and reconsider. Your wife appears to be very manipulative and very good at playing off of everyones sympathy, dont continue to fall for it. She is in this predicament of her own doing. Its called consequences.

#3 Do you BOTH have the same vision or concept on what being married is?

OK – If #3 ever becomes an issue then 1 and 2 both need to have been answered with a definite YES.

So, you have told her you want to be married. What do you mean by that? Are you saying:

“Yes – I want to be married and I am fine with you talking to other men” or are you saying “I want to be in a relationship with you where we are true to each other, communicate, work on improving our finances, have a clear view on what we want 12 months from now, appreciate and respect each other…”

Basically, you both outline what you think a marriage should be. You discuss things.

Imagine this scenario: Imagine you both decide you want to build a house. Only you want to build a two-story brick house with a conventional roof while she wants to build a single-story house with an extension and a flat roof. You could both start digging the foundations and still tell everyone you two are building a house, but imagine the confusion when you start laying bricks and she starts pouring cement…

Question #3 is basically to ensure you are both reading the same plan and have the same vision of the house/marriage.

Understood. I pretty much know the answer to #2 which will be a no. I'm preparing myself and I won't grovel. I have to accept that my marriage is most likely over.

Falc I assume you've done some reading of other people's threads here. I've noticed one thing in common: the cheater is only remoresful when the BS is either unsure they want to remain married or they are sure they don't want to be. Those that say, just so you know I am here waiting for you to decide you want to be with me after you what all over our vows don't fair so well - either in moving on or reconciling.

You really should get into IC because I think that will help you find your anger. It will help you out of this self-blame pity party you're having that probably aatems from childhood trauma. I want to see you be the one to tell her to fuck off instead of continuously taking the beat downs.

I don't understand asking her if she wants to be married to you. I hope that is a hypothetical question you answer in your head, because afterall that she has done, she should have no idea where you stand or if she stands a chance of saving your marriage. If you want a marriage worth saving she has to get to that place where she will move heaven and earth to be with you without knowing if you will take her back.

Best of luck to you.

[This message edited by strawberrypie at 12:52 AM, October 19th (Friday)]

I don't know why I don't want to give up on her, something is telling me to hold on. Maybe I'm a pussy, maybe it's because I am loyal to a fault. I don't know.

This is something you are going to need to figure out in IC. You've been married 2 years and have no kids. This should be the honeymoon period of your marriage...but she is so obsessed with a virtual OM that she has left you with no remorse, all the blame, tearing apart your marital history, all the debt and commitments, quit her job... the list goes on and on.

I know you had a really tough last year but that's when most couples get closer, they form a team to get through the rough stuff. Kids, more debt, job changes, sickness, deaths... they are all going to test your marriage and she's proven because of her depression, lack of interest, brokeness, immaturity, moral compass... she's not capable of working through those situations.

She quit her job on a whim, moved in with her parents to pursue OM, sent a stranger nudes and graphic text (who knows whatelse). Is this really someone that you want to have kids with? You can't say, "well we had 7 good years, so she will snap out of this and be the woman I married" because she shows no remorse or concern for you. She doesn't believe what she did and is doing is wrong. She wants you to leave her alone while she pursues OM she is able to block out any good you did in the marriage (paying for most things, her dental, the house...)

She is playing mind games to keep your hopium going. She knows if she wants the marriage or not she's just keeping you on the line until she figures out what's happening with OM or others she is meeting online.

The fact that someone else is trying to get into her accounts is telling. It could be family, or OM, or someone else she has met online.

[This message edited by Freeme at 7:11 AM, October 19th (Friday)]

OP, it does not matter whether your WW say's the marriage

is dead.

You need to realize that she has already killed the marriage.

With her affair and her actions post D day.

You need to be happy that you found out the person

she really is now not after having kids with her a

mortgage, give up half you pension to her and other messes.

The woman you married was her showing you her fake side.

You are seeing the real side to her now because it

is like a disease that is no longer dormant so she

can no longer keep her sick mind hidden.

Falc – we have cases here on SI where couples have divorced after EA’s. We also have cases where couples have successfully reconciled after multiple physical affairs. In the right conditions your marriage could be saved. In the right conditions it could also be over.

What I can tell you with 100% certainty is this: The ONLY WAY it can be saved is if BOTH you and your wife want to remain married to each other and are willing to do the work.

THAT IS THE ONLY WAY.

No matter how much YOU want to be married and no matter what YOU do then she needs to want it the same. This is like rowing a boat. No matter how hard you row on the port-side then if she doesn’t do the same starboard you won’t be going anywhere.

If her answer to #2 is anything short of a yes then #3 isn’t relevant any more.

Be prepared for #2 to be a no, but a lot more likely is that #2 will be “I don’t know” or “Yes, but only if…”.

If you get either then feel free to ask why she doesn’t know, what questions or concerns are standing in her way. It’s to be expected that she might have concerns that reconciliation wouldn’t be possible but what you want from this conversation is a definite YES. It might be a YES – I don’t know if we can, but I am willing to do my best, and that too would be acceptable. But anything short of a definite yes is a no.

“Let me think about it” is a no.

“I can’t make up my mind now” is a no.

“Let’s talk in a week” is a no.

“I would but since you cut off my cards” is a no.

And if she says no then that’s OK.

Then the next step is a new #3. Let’s call it #3b:

“We need to formally terminate our marriage. This is how I want to proceed. [Insert next steps here]. Do you have any objections?”

Keep it simple. I’m guessing that this young a marriage then there really isn’t that much to divvy up. Some debt, some assets, a car or two… Chances are you could get an attorney YOU hire as a mediator and get this over in a few days. If that’s the case then replace the text in the brackets above with “I will get a mediator to arrange an equitable division of assets and debts that is fair and based on the laws of our state. It will be fair for the both of us. I would want the family wedding-ring returned since it has immense value to me and is a family heirloom”

[This message edited by Bigger at 8:54 AM, October 19th (Friday)]

We just bought a house so we have 689k in debt. A couple cars, yes. You are right, the marriage is young and there's not a lot here. I agree that I am better off than people who have been married 20 years and have kids. But that still doesn't make it any less painful for me. I see my life through my lens unfortunately and to me, my life has exploded and I don't see any light at the end of the tunnel. Right now, I still think I will never find anyone else. Right now, my self worth and confidence are at an extreme low. And I can't make myself stop loving her. Every morning I wake up missing her and feeling like dogshit.

But that still doesn't make it any less painful for me.

Just so you know when people talk about the 2 year marriage, a quick divorce, that your young, no kids, lack of assets... we arn't belittling the pain you are in right now. We are thinking about future pain. If it goes to divorce this is not a person you are going to have a huge court battle with, pay spousal support to, share custody with you have the option of making a clean break once you make that decision...most people don't have that option.

Again, we aren't saying you are in any less pain right now just that your future without her could be a much cleaner break.

When you ask the questions (1-2) your marriage still might be alive.

But if she gives you a definite no… well… what you want isn’t relevant.

Once again – that would be you outside the burning door wishing there wasn’t a fire.

If she says no, then you simply need to adjust to that and start the next steps.

It then becomes a business issue. How do you two divide debt and assets as fairly as possible?

In California, I will have to pay spousal support to her unfortunately. If it leads to divorce, my plan is to absolve her portion of the house debt and probably give her the car if she can get my name off of it in exchange for no support payments.

Her half of the house payments would be more than my support payments anyway. I'm seeing my IC today, and we are working through my codependency bullshit. Anyone else would have walked away and said 'fuck you' even if they loved the person. I stood in the face of this horrible situation and said 'let's work it out'. Should I be a little proud of that at all? I already know the answer, but still. I just feel like dogshit because of the fact that I can't get the thoughts of meeting her out of my head. She's going to look the best she can and it's going to be awful.

It's so shitty how she only texts me when she's mad at me (money, accusing me of trying to reset her social media pws) yet I am the bad, angry, manipulative, controlling person who only cares about money. Like what the fuck... I just want to break her out of the fog but it'll never happen on the timeline that makes any sense to me.