SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I have to say at least one more thing about this...

In my own situation, I asked the supposedly innocent, faithful, monogamous people in my world to just TALK to my wayward wife.

She was entirely GONE out of my life and refused to speak with me due to her FOO "coping mechanisms" or rather the gross lack thereof.

NO ONE

from our church

or her family

or my group of friends

or my family

would say a DAMN THING.

We were separated for three months the first time and then another NINE the second time around. She worked at a restaurant. I even offered to reimburse anyone for the freaking MEAL or coffee or whatever if they would just GO and ASK HER or talk to her...just to find out what her actual grievances were,since she wouldn't really talk at all with me...but no one would say or ask a damn thing or care.

That's not exactly true, though.

There were 3 people who bothered to care enough to confront her about her adultery. And in doing so, it was a mere two weeks' or so later in 1996 that she returned to me for 22 infidelity-free years of marriage and counting.

One was a co-worker girl at the restaurant.

Another was a kind but virtual stranger-patron there.

And the THIRD?...was her last and final LOVER that wanted her for his own, but actually cared more about being honest than just being horny, I guess.

If THAT isn't a kind of hypocrisy...then what is? He confronted her before and after their physical adultery together. And he very much knew that she was still married to me at the time. And yet...of her multiple AP's that she serviced during our first three years of marriage...he is the one that I have the most mercy towards.

And she came home back to me 22 years ago after those three people shared their questions and concerns with her, although my FINALLY doing an Matthew 18 or "180" also had something to do with it as well.

[This message edited by Cephastion at 10:22 AM, November 21st (Wednesday)]

That is the point. Focus on what causes the tempted thought. Fix that. What is it? Are you bored? Get a hobby. Things need spiced up? Do more for your wife. Tempted thoughts are just you lacking in some area of your life. It isn't about white-knuckle and avoiding things. Though easy for me to say because I have cheated and I did learn. I learn to be grateful for what I do have and not to be looking for what I don't. When you internally become happy for yourself in healthy ways. You don't get temptations. At least it hasn't been so for me for many years now since 2years out from Dday. You figure out why you aren't that strong or why you are so unhappy. In your case, I get it. You are dealing with being a BS. What was the excuse before she cheated? Like I say all the time, I am not Christian. I grew up Christian and if I remember correctly even having the thought damns you. I think if there was a God he was making a point. You are doing something wrong if you have the thought.

When I went through that period, I rekindled my feelings by doing things for my xW, like buying her flowers. I did in fact address it. xW had other ideas at the time.

I would actually agree with St. Paul when he implies that if you want to be pure, don't marry. Live a life without sexuality. There is nothing particularly pure and holy about even Christian marriage.

So when I went down that road I knew it had pitfalls. I did address them. Maybe men and women can go a lifetime of marriage without looking at others. Some here claim to. Maybe they're telling the truth. I could not. I cope the best I can.

But really though, the xW would have just had more contempt for me for having those virtues. She wanted the knowingness, the worldliness. She's got it.

Ceph

Which ff seemingly in frustration replied:

You're absolutely right. I suppose I'm a slow learner but I guess I foolishly hope that people would accept that this is my position on things right now.

I would VERY STRONGLY challenge and disagree with this kind of thinking and line of reasoning.

SI's very existence and continuation as well as the changes I've seen in myself, my wife, and other situations that I myself have spoken into... All of this stands to refute such assertions./quote]

Specifically to the last sentence in the above quote, I would ask why? Is it really that unreasonable to ask that people stay on message when responding to any of my OP's? I do admit that I am guilty of sometimes not phrasing things in a more acceptable fashion, as in the case of my above quote. I am in no way implying that people should accept me staying silent if that goes against their own beliefs. But as I've said repeatedly, constantly coming at me to confess is counter productive and is having the opposite effect. I have never said I will not but if I do, I have to get to that decision ON MY OWN. No amount of brow beating is going to get me there any faster.

God knows that there's enough silence and indifference in this awful world as it is at this point!)

Exactly!

Zug

If you are having fantasies then are you really saying to yourself you are off limits? IMPOV. No. IMO, there shouldn't even be fantasies. Fantasies for what? Then, it is clear you aren't making yourself happy or enough for yourself. Or you are choosing to stay in a bad situation.

For clarity, are you strictly speaking about fantasies about other women or fantasies in general?

Rideitout

Yes, it's possible to develop feelings for outside people in a marriage.

Not if you don't talk to them it's not. Which is my standard operating procedure with women I find attractive. If I can avoid talking to them, I will. If I have to talk to them, I'm guarded and try to end the conversation as soon as possible.

I understand that this was said in the context of infidelity, but is that really healthy? I actually find most women attractive in a very non-sexual kind of way. I interact with many women at work who are attractive in some fashion; looks, personality etc. and I find I get something out of those interactions. Those types of conversations allow me to see things from a woman's point of view which, IMO, helps me be a better husband. Ignoring half the worlds population simply because I cheated doesn't make sense to me. I am doing the work and I am no longer tempted. I can admire a woman's beauty (in whatever form that may be) without having the desire to bang them.

ff - Happy Thanksgiving!

It's time with family and hope you'll consider a dilemma someone I know goes through every time she's around a parent who cheated, thinking there were no witnesses.

There. Are. Always. Witnesses.

There. Are. No. Secrets.

It's a lot like a bomb just waiting to go off. For the parent, finding out her daughter witnessed the actual sex act with OM - from the back seat of the car, as a toddler, less than 2 years old, with detailed memories still at age 25 of that time, and the identity of the OM, the bomb went off and estranged mother and daughter for 3 years. The mother still uses every chance she gets to justify the need for the secret, as the marriage stretched to almost 65 years before the father passed away.

The mental and emotional illness in that family is thick and deep; the daughter is the only one the mother knows of that witnessed her infidelity. However, the daughter is aware of drives they took, places they went, and there were other people around. No matter how discrete, she can't be sure nobody noticed. Nobody is THAT anonymous in a rural county.

Because there are no secrets, on some level your wife already knows. Heck - this daughter's father knew on some level, though it went unacknowledged through the rest of their marriage. The energy of that home was such that it was in their faces All. The. Time.

So consider that she already knows at some level. She just doesn't know why she's hurting. She doesn't know why she feels distance from you. You are not an academy award level actor, so no matter what you do, the wall is felt. The wall you put up to protect yourself and your secret.

Specifically to the last sentence in the above quote, I would ask why? Is it really that unreasonable to ask that people stay on message when responding to any of my OP's? I do admit that I am guilty of sometimes not phrasing things in a more acceptable fashion, as in the case of my above quote. I am in no way implying that people should accept me staying silent if that goes against their own beliefs.

?

Not sure I'm following you and your question to me very well here...

To be more clear for my part however, I was saying that I very MUCH supported and appreciated your speaking out AGAINST adultery, in spite of your falling short of others' expectations of where you should be at in all of this yourself.

Furthermore, the example I cited referencing the historical King David was intended to encourage you and others, since he kinda did the very same thing himself while actively guilty of his offense of adultery himself (and guilty even of the murder of his AP's husband. 2 Samuel 11&12)

But his crying " Foul!" on others for what he himself was guilty of at the time was instrumental in causing his remorse to become fully grasped by him.

As for my strong objection earlier, it was directed at the idea of staying silent in the face of known treachery (known treachery such as you overhead from your own coworkers for example)

Your present decision to stay silent towards your own wife wasn't what I was referring to at all.

She isn't being treacherous or actively pursuing adultery or murder or anything of the kind I assume, so there's nothing for you to speak out to correct her about, as far as I'm aware.

I suppose if it was HER that you'd overheard and then corrected as you did with your co-workers, then I'd have an AWFUL lot to say about how hypocritical and wrong it would be for you to jump her case, however.

But instead, I was applauding your indignation at the thing and your attempt to speak out against it.

I even feel the same way to some degree towards one of my wife's AP's who had the balls to try to help her face her own inconsistencies and flightiness from me and our marriage even though he obviously also had the "balls" to screw my wife as well.

And yet...even in his absolute hypocrisy, his speaking out was STILL beneficial in and of itself to get my wife to CHANGE her thinking and her life...

And so was King David's version of the same thing beneficial and instrumental in his coming to the light HIMSELF.

So with real life results like THAT, I applaud you doing what you felt was right in that situation, and I have some reason to say that silence is no solution for such SERIOUS matters of the heart and soul and life.

Silence is largely what killed my marriage. Light and truth is what rescued and resuscitated it.

[This message edited by Cephastion at 8:34 PM, November 22nd (Thursday)]

Ceph

josiep said this:

ff, nothing you ever say or do is going to change the minds of some people. Save your breath.

And I replied to her:

You're absolutely right. I suppose I'm a slow learner but I guess I foolishly hope that people would accept that this is my position on things right now.

To which You replied:

I would VERY STRONGLY challenge and disagree with this kind of thinking and line of reasoning.

SI's very existence and continuation as well as the changes I've seen in myself, my wife, and other situations that I myself have spoken into... All of this stands to refute such assertions.

When I first read your comments, I was under the impression that your last sentence was speaking to my above quote. So when you spoke of silence, I wasn't sure if you were referring to the situation in my OP, my not confessing, or both. But your comment:

Your present decision to stay silent towards your own wife wasn't what I was referring to at all.

Kind of cleared that up for me.

Thank you for your thoughts on this and the rest as well. I do appreciate it.

Josiep and ff,

Silly me!

It seems I very badly misunderstood what Josiep was referring to earlier when she spoke up against speaking up and out.

I didn't realize, Josiep, that you were referring to ff's repeated attempts to appeal to other posters on HERE within this thread and others regarding his decision and position regarding staying silent with his family regarding his own culpability and desire to have that left alone or else to have unrelated topics addressed more respectfully.

I saw lots of posting that was in the tenor and tone of trying to shut him up or correct him for speaking out and correcting others about relative indifference towards ongoing adultery, and that actually triggered me I guess. I then saw your remark initially as being in the same vein and mindset, when in fact you were actually echoing some of my OWN antithetical sentiments about this whole thing (or more accurately, I was echoing yours)!

I therefore do retract my objection to your post and alleged "mindset", since you yourself were speaking out against such a mindset yourself as the very selfsame one I was crying "foul" over as well.

Please pardon my misunderstanding there, Josiep.

I now more clearly understand the confusion I had YOU in, ff. Please pardon my very poor grasp on what Josiep was saying to you and all of us here in those posts I so poorly quoted from.

I foolishly hope that people would accept that this is my position on things right now.

that this is my position

I don't know about anyone else, but here is the thing. Maybe it is for those that have gotten it or for those that try their best to be morally right and just. The unfairness of it all.

It shouldn't be his position. It should be theirs. It should be hers. It should be joint because it is a marriage. Not- my. That is entitlement and in a marriage there should not be that entitlement. That ownership over someone elses life and informed rights. It isn't marriage anymore. It is a dictatorship. You have no right to have that position. You have no right to have that control over someone elses life.

So, for those that know you are not entitled to or should have that right- I just can't keep silent either in that injustice. There is so much wrong about that statement in a marriage.

Zug

You speak of entitlement yet you don’t see the hypocrisy of that in your own actions. I will derail my own thread for a moment to explain.

You feel such a sense of entitlement that you continue to get your message out, despite a mod telling people on this thread to stop. Zug has to stand on his pillar of morality because everyone has to hear him decry ff and his actions.

My statement that you highlighted was said solely in the context of asking people to stop T/J my posts to beat the confessional drum. Yet so many feel entitled to do so regardless despite me repeatedly asking them to stop. You can’t have it both ways.

I'm confused. A mod has asked that we stick to the original post. But then FF starts to throw shade at those who continue to encourage him to confess, and also talks about not confessing. So are we supposed to continue to stick to his original post, despite his not doing so?

Zug, he's not going to confess. He's content in his continued deception. I think it's admirable that you continue to try to help him to stop being wayward, but at some point you have to realize you're wasting your energy.

[This message edited by HellFire at 11:37 AM, November 24th (Saturday)]

Hellfire

If I’ve learned nothing else during my time here, you’re not easily confused. This is just another veiled attempt at highjscking the thread.

We are on page 5 now btw.

Edited to change nice to not

[This message edited by ff4152 at 6:50 AM, November 25th (Sunday)]

I'm not sure what you meant by "you're nice easily confused," but ok.

No. Not a veiled attempt. I'm asking the mods a direct question. I stopped commenting after their warning, yet you continue to disparage those who encourage you to confess,and you have taken the thread away from the original post. So, if you're not going to to stick to your original topic, is everyone else supposed to? Again,asking the mods.

My comment to Zug was sincere. He's wasting his time. You don't want to hear it,so what's the point?

If you've learned nothing more from being on here,in two years, other than I'm "nice easily confused" then I'm genuinely sorry about that.

/Actually I was jacking my own thread to comment on Zugs who has already twice ignored the mods.

But whatever. You work your narrative and I’ll try and stay in my lane

BTW, nice was supposed to be not. Stupid autocorrect.

Well FF, you stepped in it again. I swear you could write a post saying "Good Morning" and there would be the usual chorus of posters telling you that your morning can't be good because you are living a lie and down the rabbit hole it goes. This method , to me, has become the Wayward Side's equivalent of the Burn the Wayward Wife bunch that hung out in JFO. It's gone beyond encouragement and education and has moved to badgering and that is wrong.

Hellfire - "Zug, he's not going to confess. He's content in his continued deception."

Since you have accepted this, then stop. It's harassment at that point.

What is the worst thing waywards do, once the affair is known, besides having the affair in the first place? I would say it's the gaslighting, blameshifting, lack of remorse, Broken NC, and yes, lying about the details of the affair, including whether it happened or not. I see posts constantly with BS confused, in pain, over the lack of transparency so the BS can understand what happened to their life. Well, I have also seen several BS state they wish they never knew about the affair. This is quickly corrected with "it would only happen again." Very true. But, it wouldn't be accurate in this case. I believe he has done more work than most on his issues and continues to.

FF is a different animal here. He stopped the affair on his own. He went and got counseling, he did the work to become a safe partner. I, for one, commend him on that. It's the equivalent of dropping an addiction cold turkey. He has done what many BS on this site can only dream of their wayward's doing. He's become a more attentive husband and parent. Those are very positives and very much "not" wayward. Living his daily life with a focus on his family and continuing his work on himself is what every person, not just waywards, should do.

Now, the "continued deception". Yes, many, probably most, feel he should confess. Maybe someday he will. He continues to post for help, though I don't know why with the constant badgering. Why not just support him, give him the guidance he is looking for? The current method isn't working, it's even been acknowledged. I can state with confidence that if and when he does inform his wife, he won't be heaping on the pain like every other wayward. That alone puts him in a very small percentage of waywards. It's a sure sign of a naive BS when they post those statements. But, to his credit, it would be accurate. And what if he is correct about the fragility of his son? Are any of you going to feel any responsibility?

In my 10 years on this site, I've never seen such a constant badgering of a member because he isn't doing what some believe he should. I for one am going to support him and help him continue his journey, though usually through PM.

FF, on your original post, I would suggest a different approach. Remember, these people haven't been in your shoes, they have been exposed and they probably haven't done the work you have. Hell, maybe a few of them are waywards. We don't have any distinguishing features. I would suggest that you had a learning moment and a chance to give them a glimpse into the pain from infidelity. It would have been taken better without becoming upset, but understanding that they simply are naive. Next time, mention the BS, the breakup of families, impact to the kids and the many other problems with affairs. You might just give someone something to think about before they step over the line.

NWA..my last post to him about confessing was a few pages back,and two weeks ago. My comments today had nothing to do with beating my drum,as FF likes to put it. I am genuinely curious if everyone is supposed to stay on topic,when the OP veers away from that original topic. Yes,I addressed Zug. I suggested he give it up, because that's what ff wants. It's been two years, and he's not been swayed. I gave up. I tried. I wish him well, and that's that.

And,I do wish you well,ff. I know you cringe when you see I've posted on your threads. Clearly I trigger your defensiveness,and that's not helping anyone. So I bow out. You win.

Peace and happiness to you and your wife.

Hellfire - I am genuinely curious if everyone is supposed to stay on topic,when the OP veers away from that original topic.

He didn't "veer away" from the original topic. The others never veered back on topic. He was once again responding to the never ending harassment. Go back and look at the posts directly following WifeHad5's direction. NScale56 posted after 3 of them: "Um, read the administrator's post." If the members don't want to support him without badgering him, then they should follow the WifeHad5's direction and stay off the thread.

[This message edited by NeverWillAgain at 6:29 PM, November 24th (Saturday)]

What is the purpose of this site?

Would it have value if people could sit in an echo chamber and not have exposure to a set of standards?

Where would FF be without having some pushback and guidance early on? It can be argued that he is growing because he has access to a place where he can see that what he has done matters.

I think he's come a long way. However he has a long way to go.

If we get comfortable with deception here... if we blithely accept that the betrayed don't need to know their life is a lie, and what they don't know won't hurt them... Is that a service to our members? To FF?

Is that the direction we want this site to go?

Thank you NeverWillAgain for your words . We see it so MANY times in the other forums on this site...how the WS does so much TT. MOST of these WS did NOT end their A's on their own...and many of them ONLY confess to what their BS knows. There are WAY MORE WS's on here who are still lying about their A...and most of them would probably still be IN their A if their BS had not caught them. ff4152 is a RARE WS in that he ended the A on his own.

HellFire you stated:

It's been two years, and he's not been swayed.

That is simply NOT true. I've followed ff4152's posts from the beginning...and he was so ARROGANT at that point...speaking very ugly about his BW and he was still very much in the A fog. Slowly but surely he came out of it...and he is now at the point of stating that he thinks about confessing to his wife EVERY DAY. I believe ff4152 WILL confess to his wife...and I believe that because he is STILL HERE reading...posting...and learning.

I appreciate you posting this ff4152...because I have learned some valuable tips about approaching others who talk so nonchalantly about A's .

Antlered - What is the purpose of this site?

The main purpose is to get out of infidelity. For a BS, it's through either R or D. For a wayward, it's about identifying the issues that contributed to a bad decision, solving those issues, and becoming a safe partner for either their current partner or the next one. You can achieve that without confessing, though it's not the preferred method. In FF's case, he has a special needs son who he is worried may have a horrible reaction to the situation he would create by confessing. I believe him on this and what if he is correct? That would be a second stupid decision to complement his first stupid decision to have an affair. It's would be a consequence that is far beyond acceptable.

FF is doing that work and I agree he has a ways to go. He posted something that could have been a growing moment, where it's clear he needs support. The first posts were very helpful, but on page 1 came the first volley of "you need to confess". The next 3 pages pretty much continued that theme even after a warning from an administrator. How is that helping him other than to chase him from the site or to not post?

[This message edited by NeverWillAgain at 8:10 PM, November 24th (Saturday)]

I agree with NeverWillAgain and it's not an isolated incident!

I've read here a number of months before posting and noted the same thing happening every time ff posted.

Now as a BW I obviously don't object to the message but I do have major doubts about the methods of delivery. Quite frankly a lot of posters come across as hectoring, domineering and bullying. It's harassment and I've seen the MODs get involved in other threads for a lot less. In fact I used to wonder why they didn't shut it down.