SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Something I'll need to think spend more time thinking about. I told my BS that befriending her may have been a way to protect myself from further inappropriate interactions with the OM. That if I focused on her and made my friendship with her more important than my "friendship" with the OM that would create a safe distance from the OM. And that is actually what happened. My BS recently pointed out that I am very flirtatious with our female friends. It's true. I flirt with them by giving them compliments and joking with them and even touching them. I do it because it's fun and I love them, but also because I want them to love me. I think my desire to become close with this woman was mostly an artifact of my need to be liked and validated by everyone, including other women.

Of all of the details of your story, this one sticks out to me as the oddest. Think about it objectively, as if you are thinking about a third person. A woman you know, a married woman, is at a bar without her husband. She's buzzed from a few drinks, feeling good. She flirts with a man who is not her husband. He confides in her that he has issues with his marriage and has cheated on his wife. She knows that a man only confides these things because he's hoping for sex with that woman. In turn, she confides that she has cheated on her husband (or husband-to-be). The night progresses, they continue flirting, possibly even touching a bit. She gets in his car for a ride home. Things get borderline physical between the two of them, catalyzed by her flirting and seducing. She stops things before they progress to an actual physical connection, but it is clear that she has successfully seduced this man to the point where, if she wanted, he was hers to have.

Okay. Now, what do you think that woman would do when she met the man's wife a week or two later? Keep in mind that this woman (a) knows the husband has cheated (and the wife knows too, which is why she is angry at her husband), and (b) knows the husband would have cheated again, with her, because of the flirting and seduction. What is the logical conclusion here?

Almost nobody I know would say: "Befriend the wife, pretend that nothing happened with her husband, and carry on for years as if the wife is a close friend." I realize that real life can bring us into odd and paradoxical situations. Lord knows I've had my share. You live long enough, you're bound to do some weird shit (that's sort of a quote from one of my favorite movies, "Scenes from the Class Struggle in Beverly Hills" from the character played by Robert Beltran as he's about to engage in sex with a man even though he's decidedly not gay). Perhaps this is simply an instance of that.

But I'm mindful of the fact that you also remained friends with the woman from your retail job, the one who had a crush on your AP. Two points make a line. The thing in common between each of those is that you owned the sexual attention of the man each of them was married to or wanted. You either indulged in that sexual attention (in the case of the AP) or got it to the point where you knew it was yours to indulge if you chose (in the case of the OM), then, after sexually owning each man, you carried on a friendship with the woman who wanted him. It doesn't feel like these friendships with these women was simply to keep the man/men at arm's length. After all, in the case of the AP, you had already had sex with him. In the case of the OM, you took it to a point where you owned his sexual attention in that moment. I think there is something else going on. It's possibly linked in some way to what you describe as a high degree of flirting by you toward women.

I don't really have any answers to this puzzle. It's just that this fact pattern, out of your whole story, jumps out at me as unique and odd.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 7:25 AM, January 10th (Thursday)]

I was thinking only of how much I love and value my friend and not that I was in fact sending a card to the OM who tried to make out with me and then carried around my darkest secret in front of my BS for years.

It sounds like compartmentalization to me. It is how your carried on the A and hid the truth about what the A entailed for that time. It was a go to coping mechanism to deal with the cognitive dissonance.

You have compartments where a different versions of you resides. None of these persona's overlap (It would remove it's effacy as a means to cope).

You were in wife persona, where your self worth is at an all time low. It hurts to be there. So to cope you "switched" to awesome BFF and proud mother. You put up a wall to anything A related and keep it over there. That way you can carry on in life. It is trying to wish that the damage of the A is limited to your wife role.

This area allowed you to feel good about yourself again. That was the draw. These different personas can't overlap because it falls like a house of card when they do. Think on it and definitely bring this up to your IC.

It amazed me that my wife and I could be having a very deep and painful (but needed) conversation and all of sudden she would change and say something like . . . "Do you think we should redecorate the living room?"

Believe me, as someone who can't do that, I was completely stunned and angry. It took me a long time for me to understand why that was her go to behavior. It is not like she could explain it to me either until she saw for it herself.

I actually began to ask her "Which flavor of you am I dealing with right now ? " Neither of us understood it, but it did not mean it was not there.

These set backs are going to happen. 100% guaranteed. It is how you deal with them and what you learn from them that makes the difference. Not to scare you, but there are literally no parts of either of your lives that have not been impacted in some way. Pretending that something traumatic like this has limits is faulty thinking and prevents you from getting to your end goal. Short term gain for long term pain kind of thing.

Remember lots of knots that have to be unraveled. I hope you find an IC that you work well with. It really does help. As you change it will be unsettling for you, but also your entire family (including your H). Be mindful of that. They haven't known any other version of you and you may to explain yourself. When you promote understanding of your struggle it becomes less and less personal and more and more shared.

It is a very positive example for your children to show them that people change and not one dimensional.

Keep going. FWIW- The self flagellation is also a means to avoid. If you are hard on yourself and you show that to others then, maybe they won't come down as hard on you, right ?

That one takes more time. Your past long before your met your H has so much more of this that you realize right now. Once the pieces start falling into place it becomes very liberating and rewarding. Again, keep going.

Speaking of revelations, weren't there a few loose ends with your AP interactions that you were not sure about or could not remember? You need to tie off the facts of your AP story and any other newer revelations...the sooner the better so you can direct more energy to fixing your issues and helping your husband.

We talked about this last night, and there are still some details that I simply cannot remember. It is terrorizing my BS, and I don’t know what to do. I keep focusing on my memories and asking myself questions in search of the answers that he needs, but I’m stuck. I know how much me saying “I don’t know” kills him and I just want to be able to give him a definitive answer so that he can find the closure he needs, but the truth is that I really don’t know. What more can I do?

He is a good man and certainly worth fighting for.

Yes, he most certainly is.

He told me he had cheated on her and felt really bad about it.

So did you inform his SO about this, if not better late than never.

No, she already knew.

When he pulled up in the driveway, he put the car in park and said in half-joking tone without looking at me, “Sooooo, do you wanna make out?”

Again did you inform his SO?

No, I’m ashamed to say that I did not. It happened before I met her, and the OM never propositioned me again, so I honestly never thought about telling her. I wish I had told her. I want to be the kind of friend that doesn’t keep secrets like this.

My BS told her shortly after our recent DDay and asked if she would be willing to ask her husband about that night. She said that she has forgiven her husband and that the truth of what happened that night wasn’t a painful revelation, that it didn’t surprise her because that’s who he was back then. She did ask him about that night and said that he shared the same story with her. I am so grateful for her willingness to do this because besides passing a poly I have no other proof that I’ve told my BS the truth.

Jameson1977 – Thank you for sharing your story. The unfairness of your WW taking opportunities for sex while you stayed faithful to her is something that frequently overwhelms my BS.

your descriptions and frankness about your A has given me some insight into my WW's behaviors that I did not / could not understand.

I am glad that what I’ve shared has been helpful. I still feel like I’m stumbling in the darkness trying to navigate my way through this. And then I think about how I kept my BS in the dark for years with my lies, and that my only burden is to become a better, safer person while he suffers and must redefine who he is and somehow try to accept his new reality. It’s all so incredibly painful and unfair.

BFTG & N&D – thanks so much for repeatedly returning with such thoughtful responses. I’ll need some time to absorb before I respond.

Hi Flawed,

Have read your responses on this thread, and it looks like you are seriously digging deep.

One thing I have noticed is that you seem to put a lot of currency in yourself, in that you think that by keeping the women close; specifically toilet girl (sorry, don't really know how else to describe her) and 'OM2' spouse, you can convince them not to tell on you. That your 'friendship' with them will silence them. Not too sure if you might want to examine this behaviour.

Another thing is, survrus did ask some pretty difficult questions that might warrant some attention form you, as you would have betrayed not only your BH, but your so-called friend also, if you had not divulged to her what transpired between 'OM2' and you.

Whatever the case, I do hope you find peace and enlightenment.

But I'm mindful of the fact that you also remained friends with the woman from your retail job, the one who had a crush on your AP. Two points make a line. The thing in common between each of those is that you owned the sexual attention of the man each of them was married to or wanted. You either indulged in that sexual attention (in the case of the AP) or got it to the point where you knew it was yours to indulge if you chose (in the case of the OM), then, after sexually owning each man, you carried on a friendship with the woman who wanted him. It doesn't feel like these friendships with these women was simply to keep the man/men at arm's length. After all, in the case of the AP, you had already had sex with him. In the case of the OM, you took it to a point where you owned his sexual attention in that moment. I think there is something else going on. It's possibly linked in some way to what you describe as a high degree of flirting by you toward women.

BFTG – I am still struggling to own the parts of me that I don’t like, the parts of me that conflict with how I see myself and how I want to be seen by others. I’m still digging, but what I’ve dug up so far reveals something about me that I really don’t want to believe about myself, and that’s why it’s been so challenging for me to confront and understand. I had a deep-rooted need to feel “unique” and “special” in order to feel good about myself. One of the ways I felt special and good about myself was by feeling like I was the most attractive or desired woman in the room. I enjoy flirting with my female friends for the reasons I mentioned in a previous post – it’s fun, I like making them feel good about themselves, it makes me feel good too – but upon closer examination I think I also used to flirt with them to captivate the attention of other men, and I got off on feeling like they wanted me but couldn’t have me. I think my BS referred to me as a Siren when we were talking and trying to understand this thing in me. Ugh. It makes me so sick to own this.

I may still be in denial, but I truly believe that I wasn’t just after male attention – I wanted to be loved by everyone, including my female friends. I needed to be loved by everyone to feel good about myself. On a more subconscious level I may have been competing with these other women for male attention, but in general I think I just wanted to feel like I was in control of how everyone – men and women – perceived me.

It sounds like compartmentalization to me. It is how your carried on the A and hid the truth about what the A entailed for that time. It was a go to coping mechanism to deal with the cognitive dissonance.

N&D – My BS has said almost exactly the same thing. I am still an expert-level compartmentalizer and I could really use some tools to work on this. Yesterday my BS was having an incredibly difficult day. I want to be there for him and do everything I can to take away the pain I’ve inflicted on him, but we have two small children who can’t be left alone for extended periods of time. Over the past few months, we’ve been able to lean on family to watch the kids so I can spend more time alone with my BS. But on days like yesterday, when we don’t have help, I find myself bouncing back and forth between remorseful wife and loving mom. I try not to get lost in extreme grief when I’m with my BS so that I can more easily put the pain back into its compartment and transition into being strong for my kids. What ends up happening is I never let the pain come out of its compartment and I end up being “strong mom” for my BS too, and that is so not the role he needs me to play for him. He hates it, and I hate how it feels to fail at being everything that he needs and more.

I feel so overwhelmed on days like yesterday – trying to be there in the right way for everyone. Sometimes it feels like I’m going to snap under the heavy weight that my affair and lies have put on my entire family. I’m trying so hard to hold everyone together but every once in awhile a tiny fissure breaks the dam and all the feelings come flooding out of their compartments. But it’s usually when I’m alone, often when I’m driving by myself, and not in front of my BS so he doesn’t always see how what I’ve done is affecting me. You have told me how important it is to be vulnerable and share my pain with him, and I do manage to do this sometimes but not as often or as thoroughly as I should.

We put away our Christmas decorations yesterday. I wanted to do it by myself so he wouldn’t have to worry about it. I especially didn’t want him taking down the ornaments, many of which are mementos from significant events in our life (first house, honeymoon, new baby). He looks at pictures of us and our kids on the wall and tells me they might as well turn to dust because we are living in a version of reality that shouldn’t exist, a version that only exists because of my lies. I guess I wanted to protect him from the pain of having to literally put away pieces of our life together that now mean nothing to him. And I selfishly wanted to protect the memories that I still cherish from turning into dust in his hands. But he wanted to help and later told me it was because he wasn’t sure if it would be our last Christmas together as a real family. It is something I know I may have to accept but kills me to think about.

I had a deep-rooted need to feel “unique” and “special” in order to feel good about myself.

I'm no therapist nor psychologist, but to me it sounds like a subconscious need to "defeat" or "be better than" these women in some way, by first establishing that you can own their man, and then befriending them in a condescending way. In other words, the chasing after the men isn't about the men, it's about the other women who may themselves be interested in the men.

Hi, Flawed. I’ve been reading your thread and commenting occasionally, and I think you want to “get it” but I’m not sure you really do.

Although your backgrounds are different, your reaction to your BH post-Dday kind of reminds me of another WW. You might want to look up CantSleepCantEat‘s threads and see what you think of her approach to the subject. Was she being fair to her BH? What else might she have done? Are there lessons for you in her story?

Just some food for thought.

Does anyone know what happened to CSCE and her BH? Sadly both threads are closed..

Sanibelredfish - thank you for sharing CSCE's story with me. Another SI member sent me a link to her and her BH's threads a little while ago and I've read both. I can't tell you how many times CSCE’s posts resonated with me so much that I felt I could have written her exact words. And I was crushed when she stopped posting and her BH had made up his mind to D. I understand that infidelity is a deal breaker for some, but she really seemed to go all in with remorse and doing "the work" to fix herself and I couldn't help myself from becoming invested in rooting for her and her BH to R.

I think I "get it" but your post has me questioning whether I really do. I guess what I can comfortably claim is that I get it to the extent I can given where I am on my own journey. I fully expect my thoughts and feelings about what I've done to my BS to evolve over time as the weight of it all continues to sink in and touch every aspect of our lives. I appreciate you challenging me to be thinking of what else I can be doing. I think what my BS needs from me more than anything right now is to be able to see the changes I’m working to achieve, including for example, replacing my impulse to respond defensively with an impulse to own my actions and empathize with his feelings.

My defensiveness is something ingrained in me from childhood and therefore it feels incredibly difficult to change. It's a symptom of conflict avoidance, and I'm still trying to understand why I'm programmed this way and what I can do to reprogram my immediate reactions to perceived conflict. I say perceived conflict because I have a knee jerk reaction to minor comments from my BS that he would not consider fodder for conflict.

Lately, I still struggle with the impulse to react defensively, but now I am aware of it almost immediately after I've made a defensive comment. We break it down and talk about it together and in MC, but I'm still struggling with recognizing the impulse before it grabs hold of me and triggers an automatic response. Ugh! Sometimes I just want to scream EFFFF I DID THAT STUPID THING I DO AGAIN! I am probably just as frustrated with myself as my BS is with me.

At the risk of sounding defensive, I want to acknowledge that I am NOT defensive about my betrayals and lies. I take full ownership of those and the devastation I've caused. What I struggle with is how I respond to the more mundane everyday kind of stuff. The little stuff that adds up over the years to feel like much bigger stuff if it’s not properly resolved. The stuff that feels nit-picky and makes me feel like I’ll never be good enough, the stuff that if my BS were to do it, I would rationalize not saying anything to him because I don’t think it’s a big enough deal to raise with him (hello conflict avoidance!). I know how horrible that sounds – if there’s one thing that makes me not good enough it’s the fact that I cheated and lied to him for years. And I know how dangerous it is for me to avoid conflict by not speaking up about things – big or small – that annoy me or hurt my feelings or whatever it may be.

This is just one of several priority issues I’m currently working to understand and fix. I am so desperate to make immediate, noticeable progress on fixing these flaws that I spent the last few weeks searching for a new therapist who really gets me and what I need. The good news is – I think I found her. I’ve only seen her twice so far, but I get the sense that she understands exactly what I want to get out of therapy, and she seems to have an action-oriented approach that resonates with me.

I’m eager to change and I also realize it’s not going to happen overnight, no matter how much I wish I could wake up and just be the person I want to be. In reflecting upon where I am on this journey, I summed it up in an e-mail to my BS like so:

This is so incredibly hard because I've never walked this path before and it feels like I set out on the pacific coast trail with an empty pack. I'm trying to find the things I need to put in the pack along the way to stay the course and get where I need to go. Some of the things I need still feel out of reach. How do I even grasp them? Some things feel within reach, like I can put them in my pack but I don't know how to use them. And there are still plenty of things I need that I'm not even aware of yet.

When I start getting really frustrated with not being as far along as I’d like to be, I try to remind myself what many of you have repeatedly told me: patience and perseverance. It helps me to find some self-compassion and satisfaction with the process when the outcome feels really distant.

Super quick shout out to CantBeMe – our youngest came down with a stomach bug yesterday which quickly became an all hands on deck situation to keep him and his germs as contained as possible. We needed each other and leaned on each other and made it through the long night to the morning. There’s no one else in this world I’d want by my side cleaning up our kid’s vomit, and I am beyond grateful to have a partner who wants to find a way to stay in the trenches with me despite the pain I’ve caused him. Here’s hoping our containment efforts worked!

I was a little surprised (and concerned) to read that CSCE’s words resonated with you. I think her eloquence and willingness to embrace what she “should” say as a WS masked an overly confident, or perhaps ambivalent, approach to the outcome. Frankly, I get a little bit of that overconfident feeling from you too.

When I read your posts I get the sense that you wish you wouldn’t have slept with your AP, but (and here’s the problem) it was so long ago and you’ve matured so much that you can’t believe it could still ruin your M. The “long ago” aspect is not a mitigating factor here. In fact, given your deceit it is actually an aggravating factor for your BH. I think the only reason your H is considering staying is that you have matured into a good wife (with one problematic, hidden pre-existing condition) and mom. So, show him that you will continue to mature for yourself, for him, and for your kids. Read and re-read the resources mentioned here. Work with an IC who specializes in infidelity. Work your ass off to gain remorse, not just regret. Don’t stop working until he can see that you understand what you took from him and doesn’t have the desire to make you feel that loss too.

Lastly, your shout out to CBM touched a nerve with me, but I don’t want to tell you why. Please re-read what you wrote from your BH’s POV. What do you think he may have been thinking about the immediate situation last night in the context of everything else?

Edited the last sentence for clarity.

[This message edited by Sanibelredfish at 7:09 PM, January 28th (Monday)]

Flawed, do you read your husband's thread?

Someone in the other thread pointed out that this one exists and honestly I'm a bit aghast. It feels as if BS and WW are inverted here in terms of treatment they're getting, sometimes by the same people. Which probably is no coincidence as they've "picked sides" so to speak. I think your thread here did your husband no favours.

That being said, I can't agree with others who are saying you were courageous, brave etc. Maybe it's just my perception but I see the exact opposite here.

You've stated you have a need to be liked, to get validation and you seem to have developed a knack for manipulation, a certain approach to things and mannerism that helps endear you to people and reel them in. This is very much present in this thread where people are pretty much flocking to give you exactly that.

You are telling us your BS is your soulmate, that you "lied to cheat a second chance", that you "tried very hard". All of this is frankly speaking sugar coating extremely selfish actions. Presenting them instead as something positive. All of this ultimately has a single beneficiary, you.

To add to this, you did NOT change over the last twelve years. You still went out, you still engaged with other men, you still skirted the line and risked further affairs and that is if you're being completely honest here. In a place where your husband might find out, leading to divorce.

After reading your thread, I genuinely do not see you as a candidate for R. Maybe I'm just jaded or a cynic but much of this thread feels incredibly manipulative.

Flawed, I usually stay away from the Wayward forum. Occasionally I enter when something catches my eye. In this case your thread was referred to in a different forum (apparently others have arrived here for the same reason).

You've had a lot of input from others. I won't repeat all of that like it's brand new for your BH, years of lies, etc. There are constructive messages about what you need to do going forward. There are some giving, IMO, too much credit for the good marriage and effort you put in before DDay.

My WW cheated on me before we wed. I had that confirmed after the LTA DDay. I do feel trapped. I feel I made aa life altering decision without the details I should have had to make such a decision. Those details were readily available and were held by someone who supposedly loved me and wanted the best for me. It seems what she wanted was what was best for her and be damned about me. It causes questions about the whole marriage - the authenticity, was it all an act, living a lie, etc.

The point of this is that I don't think you had as good a marriage as you could have. We all know it now but even before you confessed to your BH. While things seemed to be all together and you were a team was it really like that. I think you did relate that you did think about the OM at times before pushing it back down into the deep, dark corner of your mind.

Secrets make you sick. As long as you had this ugly secret I don't think you could be all in the marriage. Not fully invested. You were withholding vital information from your BH and God forbid if he ever found out. I believe that causes people to not fully invest, to fully cleave, to fully have and hold, love and cherish.

I don't know how that influences anything you do going forward. I don't know if you will agree. I wanted to put it out there for you to think about and to think if there were things in your marriage (like there was in mine) that you would have handled differently if there wasn't this ugly secret.

Honestly, my empathy lies with BSs. There are WSs or FWSs whose input I appreciate and who contribute phenomenally. But, so you know, I am biased.

I was a little surprised (and concerned) to read that CSCE’s words resonated with you. I think her eloquence and willingness to embrace what she “should” say as a WS masked an overly confident, or perhaps ambivalent, approach to the outcome. Frankly, I get a little bit of that overconfident feeling from you too.

Sanibelredfish - I see what you mean. Maybe resonated wasn't the right word. I saw some of myself in her. I related to a lot of what she said about her poor coping mechanisms and frustration with herself, and her struggle with trying to find her authentic self. I got the sense that she was a chronic "hider" like me and that we share the same nature of putting only the best of ourselves out there and bending our "true" selves to meet other people's expectations as a way to fill our need for external validation. I also felt like her commitment to do the work was genuine. Those are a few of the things that jumped out at me about her thread.

I do see where you're coming from about the overly confident/ambivalent attitude. I hate coming off as though R is a given. I know it's not. I think this has something to do with my emotional immaturity. I have a lot of trouble identifying and leaning into my emotions. It's easier to stay aloof or to run away from hard feelings than it is to actually experience them. Instead of bingeing and purging to numb my feelings I cope with exercise (when I can) or by detaching, retreating into a "safe" place where I'm an observer rather than a player. I think this is what you are picking up on. It's another one of my priority issues because I know how critical it is for me to share my BS's pain and to show him my own self-inflicted wounds. I feel totally stunted in what feels like something I should have learned as a toddler. But I don't believe I'm a lost cause. I'm going to do as you say:

Work your ass off to gain remorse, not just regret. Don’t stop working until he can see that you understand what you took from him and doesn’t have the desire to make you feel that loss too.

About the shoutout. Damn. That was...what was it? I think it was showing off? Like hey, my BS and I are such a great team and we're in this together! Blah. I made it sound like no matter what, we're going to get through this (overly confident). But there is no "us" getting through "this." There's my BS working his ass off to try and put his reality back together with the knowledge that I cheated and lied for years...and maybe he'll want to stay and at that point we can build a new "us" that we can work on together.

What do you think he may have been thinking about the immediate situation last night in the context of everything else?

I think the answer you have in mind goes something like, "I shouldn't even be here. These kids shouldn't even exist because if I knew the truth I would have broken up with you and we'd be living in some alternate reality. This life shouldn't exist and yet here I am mopping up my kid's vomit when I should be happily married to someone else, and mopping up the vomit of the kids I should have had with my real true love." I asked him if that's how he felt, and he said no, not in that moment. Those feelings surface more when our kids are acting out and require a level of emotional and physical energy that is difficult to muster under the best circumstances.

To be honest, my first thought when my kid puked was, "Oh shit. I'm going to need help with this and I feel so bad about the fact that I'm going to need my BS to help me." He asked me what he could do, and I even said to him, "I feel so needy. I feel bad asking for your help." He feels insulted when I feel bad about asking him to be a parent. This isn't about him though - he's a great dad. It's about me and my issues with communicating my needs and asking for help with anything.

RubixCubed - yes, we read each other's threads.

You've stated you have a need to be liked, to get validation and you seem to have developed a knack for manipulation, a certain approach to things and mannerism that helps endear you to people and reel them in. This is very much present in this thread where people are pretty much flocking to give you exactly that.

Marauder - You are right that I yearn for external validation and I have spent my whole life being what I thought other people wanted me to be so that they would like me. I think I even made a comment at some point about feeling hesitant about the "kudos" I was receiving because I don't want to be driven to post for ego kibbles. I made my first post because my BS suggested I do it - not because I was particularly brave or courageous. I did it because he basically asked me to and I thought by putting the worst of myself out there (one of the hardest things for me to do) he would believe in my commitment to do whatever it takes to R. I return because I'm still trying to unravel my whys and appreciate the guidance and insight and occasional 2x4s that make me look at myself more honestly. So...thanks?

You are also right that I have been extremely selfish and sugar coated it. My BS gave, gave, gave and I took, took, took. I was shitty and selfish and entitled and I fucking hate how I treated my BS.

To add to this, you did NOT change over the last twelve years. You still went out, you still engaged with other men, you still skirted the line and risked further affairs and that is if you're being completely honest here. In a place where your husband might find out, leading to divorce.

Damn if I don't want to get snarky with you! I'm not sure why you feel as though you know me well enough to claim that I haven't changed in 12 years. Yes, I still have many of the same flaws I did 12 years ago but to claim that I haven't changed at all is a bit asinine. And yes, I skirted the line with 2 other men more than 10 years ago and purposefully haven't put myself in any such situations since.

Flawed

I saw some of myself in her. I related to a lot of what she said about her poor coping mechanisms and frustration with herself, and her struggle with trying to find her authentic self. I got the sense that she was a chronic "hider" like me and that we share the same nature of putting only the best of ourselves out there and bending our "true" selves to meet other people's expectations as a way to fill our need for external validation.

I get what you are saying, and I see how those elements are present in both of you. This, in my opinion should be a focus of your growth. Make changes to these behaviors one of your primary IC focuses. I think her failures led her BH to the conclusion she wouldn’t/couldn’t change and made his decision inevitable. Don’t be like that.

I also felt like her commitment to do the work was genuine.

This is where we’d disagree. I’m not truly sure how committed she was to change. When push came to shove (figuratively) it seemed like she’d lose her nerve and resort to old behaviors and comfortable dynamics (eg her parents blaming her BH for the A). That’s unacceptable post D-day. I view her as a cautionary example for you; too little, too late.

I’ll reply to the rest of your message later today. It’s a busy day at work today.

Edited

[This message edited by SorrowfulMoon at 7:36 PM, January 29th (Tuesday)]

Continuing....

I made it sound like no matter what, we're going to get through this (overly confident). But there is no "us" getting through "this." There's my BS working his ass off to try and put his reality back together with the knowledge that I cheated and lied for years...and maybe he'll want to stay and at that point we can build a new "us" that we can work on together.

Yes, it struck me as trying to put a happier face on things. Maybe trying to control the outcome too. That’s me though, not CBM. So talk to him about it. Does you trying to be positive bother him at this point?

That said, the rest of your answer here is far more encouraging. CBM has to put himself back together, you need to fix yourself too, and then work on the new M. That’s a more realistic assessment and you’ve got to be grounded in the truth going forward. No more seeing only what you want to see.

I think the answer you have in mind goes something like, "I shouldn't even be here. These kids shouldn't even exist because if I knew the truth I would have broken up with you and we'd be living in some alternate reality. This life shouldn't exist and yet here I am mopping up my kid's vomit when I should be happily married to someone else, and mopping up the vomit of the kids I should have had with my real true love." I asked him if that's how he felt, and he said no, not in that moment. Those feelings surface more when our kids are acting out and require a level of emotional and physical energy that is difficult to muster under the best circumstances.

Well, you went a little more negative than I would’ve, but the gist of it is in there. However, it did spark a positive conversation for you two and you identified a potential trigger. The next time the kids act out maybe you can minimize his trigger with a sincere apology and then the two of you can get on with dealing with the little ones. Having young ones undoubtedly makes it harder, but I’m sure you can come up with a way to concisely convey what you’re feeling to him in that moment.

To be honest, my first thought when my kid puked was, "Oh shit. I'm going to need help with this and I feel so bad about the fact that I'm going to need my BS to help me." He asked me what he could do, and I even said to him, "I feel so needy. I feel bad asking for your help." He feels insulted when I feel bad about asking him to be a parent. This isn't about him though - he's a great dad. It's about me and my issues with communicating my needs and asking for help with anything

He’s a good man and father, and he’s not losing sight of the bigger picture despite his pain. You’re very lucky to have him. Take care of your issues with an urgency that will make clear to him that you want to change.

My BS gave, gave, gave and I took, took, took.

Going forward, my hope is that you invert this dynamic - not just for now or the next few years, but for the rest of your lives together (assuming he stays). Considering all you've stolen, all the feelings of resentment and injustice you've heaped upon your BH, I don't see how it could work any other way. Become the one who gives more, cares more, apologizes first, and thinks more carefully before speaking. If he is to heal with you still around, he needs to feel like you're giving him your everything and doing whatever it takes to become the person who is capable of doing that. The selfishness, the hiding, the defensiveness, the thoughtless remarks, the validation seeking, all of that has to go. I know you're already working on it, but it bears much repeating.