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Hi Flawed,

I think the process of 'total' honesty is made more difficult for you because:

(1) You justified the A to yourself at the time, and blocked as many of the negative feelings about it as possible.

(2) You then buried the A in your consciousness after it happened, and mentally tried to leave it behind as part of the process of committing to the man who subsequently became your husband.

(3) You have had twelve years to review and re-work it in your mind. It is human nature to push the ugliest elements to the very back of the storeroom, and to start thinking of it in more general terms that are easier to handle.

None of these things were done maliciously. They are simply the way people process things so they can get a handle on them, box them up, and live with them.

What your husband is asking is for you to unlock the box and recreate the whole thing in its raw, unprocessed, state.

After the processing that the events have gone through in your mind for your own sake, presenting those events in their totally raw state requires reconstruction, not merely getting an untouched thing out of a box, in exactly the same state that it went into the box twelve years ago. That is why it has not been a straightforward process.

It was an ugly, inglorious, unpleasant thing in its unprocessed form. Returning it to that state is bound to be challenging for you, particularly knowing how both of you will be cut by rough edges and sharp corners that you sand-papered off over the years.

This is a tough process for both of you to go through, but the defining factor that every successful reconciliation needs is perseverance.

You have already got through a lot; and I am sure that both of you can get through the remaining steps if you commit to perseverance and honesty.

Sending best wishes to your and your husband.

Flawed, I'm curious about something. You were able to recall two events where you had sex with your AP in quite a bit of detail despite the fact that there were drugs and alcohol involved. Yet the encounter in the car is one where you were completely sober but you forgot the most important piece of information. That seems quite counterintuitive to me and I'm sure it doesn't sit well with your BH either.

How is it that you think you forgot that you gave your AP a blowjob despite being sober and despite it being one of only a small handful of sexual encounters between the two of you? I know it was a long time ago, but I have to admit that I would have a very hard time believing you had forgotten, and it would definitely cause me to believe that there was yet more you were still hiding.

I can't tell you all how much I appreciate your guidance and support and harsh truths and challenging questions.

In the vast universe of cheating (even in your A scenario), omitting giving your AP oral in a parking lot encounter is not epic. However, to your emasculated husband looking for some ray of light in his darkness (i.e. 100% honesty, disclosure and truth), it is a monumental gut punch at a hyper-critical moment in time (the very beginning of your attempted R following multiple TT/omission sessions).

This is exactly how my BS feels, and I am so ashamed that I failed him at this critical time. I visited him at his office yesterday afternoon to apologize and was surprised to find him in a good mood. This was the first time since DDay he had recovered so quickly from such a steep descent on this roller coaster. I was relieved to find him calm and wanting to engage in a productive conversation about what happened. I was also so incredibly proud of him. He has been working so hard to avoid marinating in the pit of rage that I built for him, and yesterday he found a way to quickly claw his way out of it. It felt like real progress towards healing, but I know the ride is far from over.

Flawed, get it together...you know what you have to do. The number of chances us Waywards have at this R thing are limited. Many of us support you, but you have to help yourself.

Thanks for this kick in the ass, Klaatu. You are right. We had a good talk yesterday, and I told my BS that the previous night I was feeling pressure to fill in the holes in my memory with whatever narrative made the most sense because I was afraid of saying, “I don’t know” and I know my BS needs these answers from me to feel closure. So I waffled back and forth trying to figure out the truth of what actually happened (shame on me for doing this in front of him!). I told him yesterday morning that after thinking all night I felt certain about what I had done, and that I remember getting out of my AP’s car at the end of that night, but I can’t remember my AP finishing or if I had sex with him. I’m still desperately trying to remember. It is incredibly difficult for my BS to believe that I could have such specific memory gaps, but I do. And I’m afraid that if I can’t ever remember then my BS will be haunted by the unknown forever.

Flawed, I'm curious about something. You were able to recall two events where you had sex with your AP in quite a bit of detail despite the fact that there were drugs and alcohol involved. Yet the encounter in the car is one where you were completely sober but you forgot the most important piece of information. That seems quite counterintuitive to me and I'm sure it doesn't sit well with your BH either.

How is it that you think you forgot that you gave your AP a blowjob despite being sober and despite it being one of only a small handful of sexual encounters between the two of you? I know it was a long time ago, but I have to admit that I would have a very hard time believing you had forgotten, and it would definitely cause me to believe that there was yet more you were still hiding.

I can’t tell you how many times we have talked about this. There were two occasions when I saw my AP sober, and those two encounters have been the most difficult for me to piece together. Our MC suggested at one point that perhaps it’s because the sober memories are the most painful to recall. Maybe that has something to do with it, but I have another theory.

My BS and I have both come to the conclusion that I was mentally ill at that time in my life and lived inside my own head, hiding from the world (the thing I’m working so hard to overcome). I relied on other people and vices to make me happy. I used drugs and alcohol and sex to get out of my head. When I was drunk or high I got to live in the moment instead of inside my head. I was able to be more present, and I think that is why it’s been easier for me to recall the details of what I did and harder to recall what I was feeling in the drunk/high encounters. The sober encounters are the opposite because I was more inside my head and less present during those encounters. The first thing I recalled about those memories were the conflicting emotions I had about what I was doing, and it's been harder to recall the details of what I did.

After the processing that the events have gone through in your mind for your own sake, presenting those events in their totally raw state requires reconstruction, not merely getting an untouched thing out of a box, in exactly the same state that it went into the box twelve years ago. That is why it has not been a straightforward process.

It was an ugly, inglorious, unpleasant thing in its unprocessed form. Returning it to that state is bound to be challenging for you, particularly knowing how both of you will be cut by rough edges and sharp corners that you sand-papered off over the years.

M1965 - Thank you for sharing these helpful insights. It has been incredibly challenging but I know how important it is, so I’m going to keep working on reconstructing the missing pieces.

WTFOVER – I’m working on answering your questions. More from me soon.

[This message edited by Flawed at 6:30 AM, December 22nd (Saturday)]

Hey Flawed

I applaud you for the honesty and openness you have shown in your posts on SI, which I recognise has taken a great deal of courage, as you attempt to heal both yourself and your husband

As part of your counselling have you discussed in IC or MC the value of engaging a qualified and experienced hypnotherapist to guide you through the process of recovering memories which are painful to you or you have suppressed and unable to recall fully.

I work in a university where students are being trained to use hypnotherapy techniques as part of their professional practice as psychologists or health professionals to help their clients.

You may wish to initially do your own research with your husband on hypnotherapy to become more informed about it and then discuss it with your counsellor as a possible tool to help you and in selecting an appropriate practitioner. Your counsellor may or may not be an advocate of hypnotherapy but it's at least worth discussing.

My best wishes for you and your husband's continued healing.

Hello flawed,

Full disclosure: I am a BS who suffers from mental illness. So I am approaching your post from that perspective.

My BS and I have both come to the conclusion that I was mentally ill at that time in my life and lived inside my own head, hiding from the world (the thing I’m working so hard to overcome).

I think it's great that you and your BS are working together to rebuild. Keep going. Show courage. Don't give up.

However, I would implore you to seriously rethink the above statement. You were not mentally ill at the time. Mental illness alludes to life long mental issues that usually can only be treated.

To me, you were not mentally ill. I find it a bit offensive that you and your husband have come to this conclusion. It implies a flippancy.

Instead, I'd guess the issue is that you were immature. You lived inside your own head because you likely felt that your thoughts were the only ones that mattered. Living inside your own head is an extension of self glorification. We live inside our head and thus only listen to what we tell ourselves.

Saying you were mentally ill at the time implies that the motivations behind your actions were somehow not malicious.

From your confession on the previous page, it seems to me that you lacked the ability to put your own comfort within the context of the people you committed yourself to. There is nothing mentally ill about that.

I think the conclusion of temporary mental illness is a sure fire way to jump into rugsweeping territory.

I implore you to rethink they conclusion and accept the reality that you weren't mature enough to handle life or take other's opinions and feedback into context.

To me, you were not mentally ill. I find it a bit offensive that you and your husband have come to this conclusion. It implies a flippancy.

Instead, I'd guess the issue is that you were immature. You lived inside your own head because you likely felt that your thoughts were the only ones that mattered. Living inside your own head is an extension of self glorification. We live inside our head and thus only listen to what we tell ourselves.

Saying you were mentally ill at the time implies that the motivations behind your actions were somehow not malicious.

Thanks for pointing this out. I feel really shitty about having written that and wish I hadn’t. I take mental illness very seriously and hate that this came off as an attempt to minimize what I did. My BS and I recently had a conversation in which we discussed my mental state at the time and he questioned whether I had a diagnosable mental health issue, but to say that we came to the conclusion that I was mentally ill was a misrepresentation of that discussion. I’m really sorry about that. It was totally messed up for me to attribute the challenges I’ve experienced with recalling details from my sober encounters with AP to anything more than what you’ve pointed out – that I lived inside my own head because I was immature and self-absorbed.

What I definitely did have at the time were some pretty serious behavioral health issues – an eating disorder and unhealthy use of substances. I wouldn’t say I was addicted to drugs or alcohol at the time, but I used them in unhealthy ways. My IC pointed out that these types of behavioral issues, especially eating disorders, involve a huge amount of hiding. She acknowledged the need to explore those behaviors and how they either contributed to or relate to my continued issues with hiding parts of myself that I hate or am ashamed of. So I think understanding this will be important for understanding and breaking down my long-held issues with hiding and minimizing, but can’t in any way be used as excuses for what I did. I hope this makes more sense.

[This message edited by Flawed at 9:25 AM, December 23rd (Sunday)]

Thanks for pointing this out. I feel really shitty about having written that and wish I hadn’t. I take mental illness very seriously and hate that this came off as an attempt to minimize what I did. My BS and I recently had a conversation in which we discussed my mental state at the time and he questioned whether I had a diagnosable mental health issue, but to say that we came to the conclusion that I was mentally ill was a misrepresentation of that discussion. I’m really sorry about that. It was totally messed up for me to attribute the challenges I’ve experienced with recalling details from my sober encounters with AP to anything more than what you’ve pointed out – that I lived inside my own head because I was immature and self-absorbed.

What I definitely did have at the time were some pretty serious behavioral health issues – an eating disorder and unhealthy use of substances. I wouldn’t say I was addicted to drugs or alcohol at the time, but I used them in unhealthy ways. My IC pointed out that these types of behavioral issues, especially eating disorders, involve a huge amount of hiding. She acknowledged the need to explore those behaviors and how they either contributed to or relate to my continued issues with hiding parts of myself that I hate or am ashamed of. So I think understanding this will be important for understanding and breaking down my long-held issues with hiding and minimizing, but can’t in any way be used as excuses for what I did. I hope this makes more sense.

Hello, Flawed. Apologies for the late response. It was Christmas and that means all of my family goes crazy spoiling my niece (the first and only grandchild) rotten. Had a wonderful time watching my niece open her gifts. :)

Onto your post - thank you for clarifying. And please, don't feel like shit. You understanding the impact of your words is enough. You being sorry is more than enough. :) We all step into a big 'ol pile of shit every now and again.

And thank you for clarifying - I 100% agree with your IC's comments. For the record, I have a holy trinity of disorders (Borderline, BiPolar and OCD). One of my OCD compulsions was to binge and purge in order to lessen my anxiety. So I do understand the need to hide in order to avoid shameful reproach and to also continue my habits.

Thank you, seriously, for clarifying.

I'm glad to hear that you take mental illness seriously - as someone who was given a triple whammy of diagnoses, I am always touched when people choose to understand that this shit is hard.

I wish you all the best, flawed. Keep going. Keep fighting. Have courage. Don't give up.

I was feeling pressure to fill in the holes in my memory with whatever narrative made the most sense because I was afraid of saying, “I don’t know” and I know my BS needs these answers from me to feel closure. So I waffled back and forth trying to figure out the truth of what actually happened

This is what I did years ago and it really ruined any chance of my BS ever believing that she has the truth now about anything. I did so because I felt pressure and honestly because I was just trying to get out of the uncomfortable conversation not thinking about how much I was hurting my BS with things that would have to be revised again and again.

Also, I have had the same issues with memories, I can remember things where I was drunk but not when I was sober. For me I think there are several reasons, first anything I did physical was always when I was drunk but I have been able to remember because it was something that I knew was very wrong but justified it because I was drunk. The fact that it was something that I knew was wrong is what kept those memories and the justification is what allowed me to eventually speak about it. The things I did while sober (EA), I didn't think of as wrong at the time so they weren't saved in my memory in the same way because they had little importance. For example, the end result is that I struggle to recall details about 3 months of EA conversations but I can remember the physical encounter I had with this OW. It is incredibly frustrating to my BS and I have tried hypnosis which had little success in recalling anything.

Islesguy – Thank you for sharing this part of your story with me. Unfortunately, I think I’m in the same boat as far as my BS ever believing he has the truth about everything, but every time we talk I think he gets a little closer to believing he does. Your insight about being able to recall drunk vs. sober memories is really insightful and makes sense to me. I might have some of the same wiring issues since I can’t recall a single conversation I had with my AP in detail.

WTFOVER – thank you for sharing your story. I’ve read most of your thread, and I am sorry you find yourself in a similar situation as CantBeMe and me.

In a nutshell, the most important things you can do include: (from my perspective)

- Always tell the truth … but not just the truth, be totally transparent with your thoughts and feelings and in response to his questions.

- Do not be defensive. Do not minimize what you have done. Do not justify. Own it.

- Take the lead and be proactive with reading, I.C., etc. Don’t wait for him to ask.

- Share what you learn as you come across something that is insightful in S.I. or a book.

- If you have another memory resurface, tell him. (Ask him if he wants to know) It will be painful but it will build trust … and trust is the most valuable currency.

- Put his needs above your own. Recognize when he is struggling and ask him what he needs … then do it.

- Bring it up and ask if he would like to talk. It is always on his mind. Don’t make him be the one to always initiate.

- Go above and beyond sexually. He feels emasculated and destroyed that you chose someone else over him. You can do a lot to repair that … get creative and take the initiative to show him that you desire him.

Thank you for this great advice. I am obviously still struggling in some of these areas but working really hard to learn and grow and do better. I’ve finally answered your questions, with the caveat that I expect to have greater clarity on some of these over time as I untangle the knots in my head. I’m sorry it’s taken me so long to respond.

1. My wife claims that she cannot remember anything about any of the 10 sexual encounters she had with AP except for 2 very minor details. (I don’t understand how that is remotely possible as I am able to recall details of sex from 25 years ago.) Do you believe this is possible? Did you have any difficulty remembering the details of what happened? What helped you recall?

I do believe that different people have different capacities to remember their past experiences. That being said, I find it incredibly difficult to believe that your wife remembers only 2 very minor details. How was she able to determine she had 10 sexual encounters if she remembers only 2 minor details? If I were to give her the benefit of the doubt, I would say that she has buried those memories in the darkest corner of her mind and is still lying to herself about what she did. I really struggled to recall specifics immediately after DDay, and it took me some time to really flesh out the memories and own what I had done.

What helped me recall was replaying the memories that I did have over and over in my head. I tried to put myself back in those moments and see and feel things through my younger self. It suuuuucked to basically relive the worst things I’ve ever done, but what sucks way more is doing all the shit I’m trying so hard not to do: lying, minimizing, blame-shifting. It took me awhile to be honest with myself about what I was thinking and feeling at the time without projecting my current thoughts and feelings on my younger self. I had a very hard time reconstructing these memories in their totally raw state as M1965 put it.

I’ve also found this site to be incredibly helpful for gaining perspective and “getting it.” Has your wife spent any time on this site? It may be eye-opening for her and make her want to do the hard work of remembering and honestly sharing more details.

2.) How did keeping this secret for over a decade impact your marital relationship?

This is a tough question for me to answer because I don’t know if I can attribute specific relationship challenges to the fact that I had this horrible secret. What I can say is that when we have had arguments in the past, I generally got to a point of such intense frustration that I often blurted things out like, “I’m such a horrible person” and “I hate myself.” It was a toxic defense mechanism (one I’m still working to overcome), but I think it also had something to do with the fact that I carried a lot of shame and guilt over what I had done and that made it easy to retreat into self-loathing. I find myself sinking back into the pit of self-hatred every time I think about what I’ve done and how I lied, and every time I have failed my BS since DDay. I know it will be important for me to love who I am and to build my sense of worth from within, but I’m not there yet. I don’t think I’ll really be able to love myself until I’ve proven to my BS and to myself that I’m capable of fixing what’s broken inside of me.

To that end I would say that the broken parts of me that I’m trying to understand and fix (my impulse to hide, defensiveness, blame-shifting, lack of mindfulness) have been defining contributors to every one of our conflicts.I'm aware that it's going to take a lot of time and effort to fix myself, and I'm so thankful each day that my BS gives me to continue working on becoming a better person and his best partner.

3.) How did keeping this secret impact your mental health and self-esteem?

Oh boy. I asked for hard questions and you delivered! I might have to revisit this one after a few years of IC. I have had some behavioral health issues and low self-esteem that was temporarily inflated throughout my life by external validation. But I am not sure what role my secret keeping played in terms of contributing to or resulting from these issues. This is something I hope to understand, but I’m just not there yet.

4.) Did your affair and lack of disclosure have any impact on intimacy with your husband in marriage? Both emotional and sexual.

This is a really tough question, and something my BS and I have talked about. I experienced a lot of guilt and shame for awhile after our first fake DDay 12 years ago, but because I had lied to my BS I hid my pain from him. For a long time I told myself I didn’t deserve the pleasure of sex. I shut myself off from my BS because I was so incredibly ashamed and being physically intimate with my BS had never been “just sex.” Experiencing each other in that way made me feel incredibly vulnerable, like he would be able to see through me and know what a horrible person I was. So I closed myself off from him by rejecting him more often and when I didn’t reject him I wasn’t fully present during sex as a way to both punish myself and protect myself from being seen. I guess I felt like I needed to hide all of me – even the good and true parts – to be able to hide the ugliest part of me. I am heartbroken at the realization of the experiences and time that my A and lies stole from my BS.

I can’t tell you exactly how long this went on, but we have had some ups and downs in our sex life throughout our marriage. Ironically, our sex life has been really amazing since we had kids. I stopped being so self-conscious about my body, had an increase in libido (possibly from not being on birth control), and being intimate after a long day of working and parenting young children became something that we both looked forward to as a way to connect.

As for emotional intimacy – this is something I’ve been horrible at my whole life. My inability to express my feelings is one of the issues that contributed to my A. I still struggle with this and am digging for answers to understand why and how to fix it. So I’ll leave it at that for now.

5.) Did you think about the affair on your wedding day or leading up to it? How often did it cross your mind?

Honestly, I did not think about the affair on our wedding day. I guess I had compartmentalized it so well that it could not have been farther from the forefront of my mind. I was literally on Cloud 9 that day – it was absolutely the best day of my life up until that point. I was marrying the love of my life and my very best friend. It was the only time prior to the birth of our daughter that I can remember crying tears of joy. It rips my heart to pieces knowing I’ve tainted those memories with my A and lies. I know my BS will never look at our wedding pictures the same way and it kills me to know I’m the reason why.

Leading up to our wedding, I did think about it occasionally. I thought about it when triggered by something (like driving by the retail store where I worked at the time) and when my BS occasionally brought it up and I repeatedly lied (and felt sick about it each time). I also thought about it a couple of years after my A when I betrayed my BS by putting myself in two different situations where I spent time and flirted inappropriately with another man. I did not cross any physical boundaries with these men because I could not stomach the thought of doing that to my BS again. I was happy to soak up their attention and fill up my self-esteem tank with their validation, but I had no desire to have a physical relationship with either of these men, and I drew the line because I was thinking of how much I loved my BS and how much I didn’t want to do that to him again. I am ashamed that I was still acting so selfishly at this point and that I didn’t think about how these interactions were betrayals even though they weren’t physical.

As usual, this post ended up being super long. I’ll be back soon with more updates and looking for more guidance.

Flawed,

Thank You for posting, your last post really hit home for me and gave me insight into my own WWs behavior thought the years.

I'll try and respond more later as it's going to take awhile to take in what you wrote.

From your posts it sounds like you've been doing the hard work. Keep at it. You're moving in the right direction. Patience and perseverance.

Flawed, thanks for posting. Digging into all the ways in which your affair and subsequent cover-up negatively impacted your marriage and robbed your BH has got to be a painful and heartbreaking task, but it's a good thing in the end because it helps you better understand and empathize with him. Keep doing what you're doing. You're on the right track.

I appreciate the encouragement, but it scares me because it fills that thing in me that still yearns for validation. I’m doing my best, but I still have a long way to go. I did a really shitty thing over the holidays that I’ve been wanting to share because it represents one of my major flaws that I am still trying to understand. This shitty thing I did has to do with one of my betrayals in which I flirted inappropriately with another man.

I met this OM at a part time job I had when I started grad school in 2008, two years after my affair. We flirted at work and both attended happy hours with a group of several other coworkers. I always invited my BS to come with me, but he declined because he suffered from social anxiety at the time and hated those kinds of situations. (As a quick digression – I also have a lot of remorse over how little I attempted to understand his social anxiety and that I cared more about getting my own social needs filled than finding things for us to do together that filled both of our needs.)

During one of these happy hours, the OM was waiting on a drink from the bar and I approached him, ordered a drink, and asked him where his wife was. He told me it was a long story and that she was mad at him. He told me he had cheated on her and felt really bad about it. I told him I understood how he felt because I had done the same thing to my boyfriend. I shared my darkest secret with the OM. We talked for a little while and then he asked if I wanted a ride home. I said yes and justified it by telling myself that he was trustworthy because we had just talked about how awful we felt about having betrayed our partners. Plus, getting a ride from him was more convenient than walking across campus to the bus stop that would take me to my car. But I wanted to feel special and so I soaked up his attention and felt good about getting this “special” treatment. When he pulled up in the driveway, he put the car in park and said in half-joking tone without looking at me, “Sooooo, do you wanna make out?” Without looking at him I said, “No. I could never to that to my BS again.” I got out of the car and before I closed the car door I said to him, “Besides, isn’t flirting more fun?” Then I closed the door and walked into my house. I said it because I meant it but also to make him feel less bad about saying what he said.

I hate everything about how I acted that night. I may have drawn the line, but there never would have been a line to draw if I hadn’t engaged in an intimate conversation and accepted the ride home. We never spoke about that night, and then a couple of weeks later, his wife met all of us out at a happy hour. I liked her. I became friends with her. She soon became one of my closest and dearest friends. The closer I grew to his wife, the less I interacted with him. Soon after I met her, my BS started to get to know this new group of friends. And then we all started hanging out together regularly. As life got busier we saw them less often, but I’ve maintained my friendship with the OM’s wife over the years.

A couple of years ago, my friend and her husband/OM moved to another state and now my friend and I occasionally text…and we send each other Christmas cards. And that leads me to my present-day fuck-up. I mailed her a Christmas card two months after DDay. After destroying my BS with the truth of my affair and the details of this betrayal, seeing his pain, feeling his anger and disgust and disappointment towards me, knowing how much he haaaaates this OM for what he did and that he knew my darkest secret, after hating myself for all the things I’ve done to my BS and all the lies I told him, I hand-addressed a Christmas card to my friend and her family with pictures of me and my BS and our kids. I was thinking only of how much I love and value my friend and not that I was in fact sending a card to the OM who tried to make out with me and then carried around my darkest secret in front of my BS for years.

How could I be so thoughtless? This is the thing that I’m struggling to understand. How can I spend virtually all day thinking about my BS, thinking about what I can be doing to help him heal and show him how much I love and desire him, trying to understand why I am the way I am so that I can become his best partner, and yet I am incapable of thinking about how sending a Christmas card to this family would make him feel. I’m so embarrassed that I could be so stupid and thoughtless. It terrifies me, especially because I don’t understand why I’m able to do stuff like this. It terrifies my BS because it makes him wonder if I’m incapable of empathizing with him, incapable of thinking about how everything I say and do affects him, incapable of recognizing when I’m doing these things and therefore still capable of betraying him.

I felt such intense shame and disgust and hate for myself when I realized what I had done. My default is to internalize everything and direct all this shame and disgust and hate towards who I am as a person, and in my darkest moments I just want to hurt myself, to punish myself, to feel physical pain because it’s easier than navigating my way through the emotional pain. I am having an incredibly difficult time finding a way to love myself and hate the shitty things I’ve done. How can I love who I am when I am still capable of doing such thoughtless, hurtful things?

But I know hating myself isn’t serving anyone well, and I don’t want to keep wallowing in this comfortable pit of darkness where I’m literally untouchable. When I’m the pit, I withdraw and shy away from the touch and comfort of others. I don’t really understand that either. Maybe it’s because I don’t want to feel like I need anyone’s comfort. Maybe it’s also because I don’t feel like I deserve to be comforted. But I am so not the victim and I don’t want to feel like I’m the one that needs to be taken care of. I don’t want my BS to feel like he has to walk on eggshells around me because he’s afraid of saying or doing something that sends me into the pit. I want to be stronger and more resilient and more open and more comforting. I need to be these things and more for him. And I can’t really do that from the comfortable pit of self-loathing that I've made my safe space.

As usual, I’ve rambled on and on. I guess to close on a high note, I’ve scheduled appointments with a few new therapists. I’m committed to finding the best fit – someone who will help me dig up the answers I’m searching for and help me find a path towards healing and growth and love and authenticity. I know I can do this. I’m going to prove it to myself and to my BS and to my kids.

Flawed, I had to go back and check to make sure, but a couple of weeks before Christmas I posted this for you to read:

As for the Facebook fiasco, just remember that anyone who knew about your affair and didn't tell him is his enemy, and anyone who is his enemy is yours as well and has no business occupying any space in your life, no matter how small. Thinking that the girl who walked in on you fucking your AP was somehow separate from the affair is obviously something that makes those of us on the betrayed side of the fence shake our heads in disbelief. But it sounds like that's registering with you now. Just keep on the lookout for stuff like that and always err on the side of honesty and disclosure.

This is very similar in that you were still keeping someone in your life, even peripherally, who had knowledge of your affair and didn't tell your husband. It seems like this didn't register the first time around, and now you're seeing the effect yet again. Please be more diligent about how sensitive this topic is. As I'm sure your BH has told you, the fact that there are people out there in the world who knew he was with an unfaithful partner is infuriating and painful for him.

Did this friend of yours and her husband attend your wedding? If so, that's extra salt in the wound because it meant there was someone in attendance who knew what you had done and stood idly by as your husband married you anyway.

Outside of the context of infidelity, what you describe is innocuous. You had a flirtation with a man that you checked before it went too far. Later, you became friends with his wife, a friendship that grew and sustained to the point where you exchange annual Christmas cards.

Although, as an aside, I do think it's odd that you befriended this woman after flirting with her husband to the degree that he propositioned you. I think there was a similar element to your A, where your female friend from work was attracted to him. It is consistent with what you've said about yourself, but in addition it smacks of a certain level of misogyny or aggression toward other women.

But I digress. The reason this has additional meaning is due to its proximity to the affair. To that end, I'd suggest your issue isn't in sending the card. Rather, your issue is communication. You should develop a habit of re-examining each of your connections from that period in your life and discussing them with your husband to see how he feels about them staying in your life, with the default being to let them go from out of your life.

Communicate. Communicate more. Be proactive about communicating.

By the way, the process of healing and fixing is often a "3 steps forward, 2 steps back" sort of thing. Don't get discouraged.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 2:41 PM, January 9th (Wednesday)]

Flawed, glad you are still checking in with updates.

Repeating what you've heard here over and over, R is a long journey with ups and downs. IMO, the scenario you described is more of a "stumble" rather than a major setback. It shows me you are working in the right direction, but still have a lot of work to do. Nonetheless, it stings your husband every time you have one these revelations.

Speaking of revelations, weren't there a few loose ends with your AP interactions that you were not sure about or could not remember? You need to tie off the facts of your AP story and any other newer revelations...the sooner the better so you can direct more energy to fixing your issues and helping your husband. He is a good man and certainly worth fighting for.

Lastly, Flawed don't be too, too hard on yourself...giving yourself a kick in the rear is healthy, but you also have to stay strong and focused...don't let this stumble bring you down or derail the work you've done so far. My humble suggestion is to stay on course.

I'm still betting you and your husband will make it through this.

[This message edited by Klaatu at 4:03 PM, January 9th (Wednesday)]

Flawed,

You wrote in bold.

He told me he had cheated on her and felt really bad about it.

So did you inform his SO about this, if not better late than never.

When he pulled up in the driveway, he put the car in park and said in half-joking tone without looking at me, “Sooooo, do you wanna make out?”

Again did you inform his SO?

This is very similar in that you were still keeping someone in your life, even peripherally, who had knowledge of your affair and didn't tell your husband. It seems like this didn't register the first time around, and now you're seeing the effect yet again. Please be more diligent about how sensitive this topic is. As I'm sure your BH has told you, the fact that there are people out there in the world who knew he was with an unfaithful partner is infuriating and painful for him.

You are right. I am pretty sure I sent the card before your post about the FB fail, but either way there's no excuse for how I failed to consider how my actions would affect my BS.

Did this friend of yours and her husband attend your wedding? If so, that's extra salt in the wound because it meant there was someone in attendance who knew what you had done and stood idly by as your husband married you anyway.

Yes, they did attend our wedding. I told my BS last night that I have been fixating on the fact that this OM knew my secret and how awful that made me feel, especially thinking back to times when we were all hanging out together. It makes me sick that this POSOM knew more about me than my BS.

Although, as an aside, I do think it's odd that you befriended this woman after flirting with her husband to the degree that he propositioned you. I think there was a similar element to your A, where your female friend from work was attracted to him. It is consistent with what you've said about yourself, but in addition it smacks of a certain level of misogyny or aggression toward other women.

Something I'll need to think spend more time thinking about. I told my BS that befriending her may have been a way to protect myself from further inappropriate interactions with the OM. That if I focused on her and made my friendship with her more important than my "friendship" with the OM that would create a safe distance from the OM. And that is actually what happened. My BS recently pointed out that I am very flirtatious with our female friends. It's true. I flirt with them by giving them compliments and joking with them and even touching them. I do it because it's fun and I love them, but also because I want them to love me. I think my desire to become close with this woman was mostly an artifact of my need to be liked and validated by everyone, including other women.

But I digress. The reason this has additional meaning is due to its proximity to the affair. To that end, I'd suggest your issue isn't in sending the card. Rather, your issue is communication. You should develop a habit of re-examining each of your connections from that period in your life and discussing them with your husband to see how he feels about them staying in your life, with the default being to let them go from out of your life.

Communicate. Communicate more. Be proactive about communicating.

Thanks for this great suggestion. I'm going to re-examine my connections with my BS and communicating more and better is definitely something I'm working on.

[This message edited by Flawed at 6:45 PM, January 9th (Wednesday)]

Hi Flawed,

I've read your BH's posts and yours and I felt compelled to comment. I am also a BH, 3+ years from dday.

Short history, my WW and I were HS sweethearts, and both our fists for everything. My WW had a ONS 17 years ago, prior to marriage, a number of EA's and another EA/PA in 2012/2013. I caught her, she didn't confess. I also got TT for 3 years after dday.

Firstly, I can only imagine how difficult posting all the ugly details of your A is for you and your BH. It does take courage to "put all the ugliness out there".

Your description of your A feels very honest and really struck a cord with me given my WW's description of her thoughts / feelings during her most recent A. The compartmentlizing and justifications you detail are very similar to my WW. I too pushed and pushed until more truth came out. Truly a maddening experience for me and I assume very tough for my WW given she knew there was more truth to come. She mentioned to me that she felt if she didnt speak the truth out loud, it wasn't real (messed up thinking). She also felt that if she could be friends with her AP, after the end of the PA, it wouldn't have been for not. Meaning, if she developed a friendship with him, the PA part wouldn't be as bad.

Her AP used her, as did she, very similar to how you described wanting him to want / desire you. I have had a very hard time trying to rationalize her feelings on this.

You also mention boundaries. This is another area my WW was horrible with. She got along better with men than women and naturally, she would befriend men more so than women. I always disliked this. She had a Male friend that she knew from before we met. I was always suspicious of this relationship and I had good right to be. Even though they never had any physical relationship, she propositioned him "dozens of times" over the years, but he never took the bait (dday 3). I'd love to say he was stand up guy, but I doubt it. If a friends wife propositioned me, I would tell my friend!! I believe he was scared of me (I'm a very large man and he isnt).

When it comes to boundaries, I like to think I could be in a room full of promiscuous women all wanting to sleep with me and I would politely decline. My WW (pre IC) would have had problems with this scenario. She would LOVE the attention. She felt validated by mens attention. She felt desired, wanted, sexy, etc. I hear a lot of WW say they adhere to strict boundaries with the opposite sex. I take a different look at this, you should be able to be the only woman in room full of horny men and have nothing inappropriate happen. To me, removing yourself from these types of circumstances to "protect" yourself from doing something bad speaks to loose morals and lack of faith in oneself.

My WW's ONS was a party while I was out of the country. We fought (about my lack of commitment - engagement), left on bad terms. I was propositioned by two women (keep in mind I was 19/20 years old! I politely declined. At the exact same moment, a guy at the party my wife was at basically said "hey, want to f#ck?", well, she said yes and screwed him in a carport, real classy. So even at 19/20, and after having a big fight, and being out of the country, I made the right choice (for me), and she made a horrible choice. Her reasoning for saying yes, "i was thr one of the older girls at the party, not as pretty, older, and he chose me!!". It really opened my eyes to how fragile and loose my WW's boundaries were. I found out about the ONS when I confronted her about the 2012 PA, in June 2015.

I dont mean to TJ, but just wanted to let you know your descriptions and frankness about your A has given me some insight into my WW's behaviors that I did not / could not understand.

All I would say now is nothing could be more hurtful to your BH than more TT. I had asked my WW (a week after dday) that I wanted everything out. Clear the slate so to speak. She couldn't do it. She was terrified that I would leave her if I knew the truth. Ironic thing is I had figured out all the TT after dday and just wanted her to admit, and be truthful. She couldn't even give me that.

We are in a better place, but not without multiple ddays, terrible fights, set backs and a suicide attempt on her part.

I would suggest intensive IC and really open up and give it your all.

I wish you two all the best.

[This message edited by Jameson1977 at 7:27 PM, January 9th (Wednesday)]