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Firenze – I really appreciate you taking the time to share your insights with me.

you're probably starting to realize that this is going to take much longer and be much more difficult than you initially anticipated, not just because your BH has so much pain and grief and anger to work through, but because you're seeing now that you still remain in many ways no different than the 23 year old who had an affair and who several years later looked your husband in the eye at the altar and spoke lies that ultimately robbed him of years of his life.

I'm sure it's a depressing and disheartening realization, but it's also a good thing because self-awareness is probably the single most important element of personal growth. That impulse to hide and minimize, to base your decision making not on what shows your husband the most respect and love but rather what gives you the best odds of achieving your desired outcome - no matter the cost to him - is almost certainly your biggest flaw and your biggest hurdle.

You are so right about all of this. I have grown and changed in some ways since I was 23, but my BS has rightly identified the changes as a combination of behaviors (I no longer have a desire to binge drink and go out dancing, for example) and circumstances that have created natural boundaries (I’ve worked with mostly women for the past 8 years and now have two little kids that make it difficult to do much more than survive on a day-to-day basis). I think you have rightly identified my impulse to hide and minimize as my biggest flaw and biggest hurdle. It seems conflict avoidance and a need for external validation are common traits among WSes, and I would say my impulse to hide originated from both of these traits – not wanting to experience conflict and also curating the version of myself that I want others to see so they will like me. I see it, but how do I go about fixing it? Reading other posts here on SI has been helpful, but right now I feel I am lacking the tools to reprogram my default settings. I guess that’s what IC is for, and I hope this will begin to crystalize soon.

One of the things that every WS who comes here is told frequently is that they need to learn to let go of the outcome. I think a good exercise for you is to work on internalizing this. Recognize that the decision of whether or not you will remain married is one that ultimately rests with your husband, not you. The only thing you have control over is what kind of person you want to be, and that remains true whether your husband chooses to stay with you or not.

I think I’m getting closer to accepting this. I have internalized the fact that the only thing I have control over is how I love and care for my BS and the work I’m doing on myself to be the best partner I can be for him. In some ways I think it really pisses him off to know that I’m so invested in working on myself now, as a result of gutting him with my affair and lies, because it’s like adding an extra side of shit to his shit sandwich to think that if he chooses to leave I might end up being a better and safer partner for someone else. Ugh writing those words “with someone else” sickens me. I can’t even stand the thought, but I know it’s a real possibility I might have to face.

But-“one T”-forthegrace –

sorry to piecemeal my thoughts, but sometimes my brain is scattered.

On the contrary – you are quite eloquent and I hope that I can express my own thoughts and feelings in such a complete and linear fashion one day. Now might be a good time to note that I may come across as intelligent and articulate in writing, but I am embarrassingly awful at orating – especially when it comes to challenging topics (i.e., every conversation with my BS in the past 6 weeks). Another big hurdle for me to jump, or rather more like a pole vault for me, to become more intentional and articulate in conversing.

My sense is that your BH "knew" the whole time that something more than just a kiss had taken place between you and the AP. By "knew" I don't mean he had gathered information and verified anything, but rather his intuition told him this. Your demeanor, reactions, etc., upon discovering the text, coupled with his then thinking back to a time or two previously where you had been acting oddly. Thinks that make you go "Hmmm", as Arsenio Hall used to say.

This is doubtless something that frustrates him now, possibly at a subconscious level. The idea that if he had acted on his intuition back then, he might not have found himself in his current predicament.

How you manage to get inside my BS’s head and accurately extract these nuggets is beyond me. I want to wield this power one day (as does my BS) since my inability to do just that has been the source of most of our non-affair-related fights prior to DDay. Anyhow, you are right about this. When my BS thinks back to when we first started dating (before the affair), he feels as though he wanted to be with me so badly that he saw only what he wanted to see and ignored the signs that I was much wilder girl than he wanted to believe. When I moved to a new city to live with him, he didn’t realize I still had the drive to be wild and party in ways that made him extraordinarily uncomfortable, so he let me go out with other people who liked to do the same. He feels like a fool for trusting me (rightfully so), and after he discovered the text that began a 12-year-long lie, he always thought there was more to it but didn’t push because he wanted my lie to be true. He wanted it to be true because he was insecure and afraid of starting over with someone else. It kills me that he has found a way to blame himself – not for my affair – but for the pain and suffering I’ve inflicted on him. He believes that had he let himself see me for who I was at 21 when we met – a wild party girl – or that if he had the courage to dig for the truth rather than accept my lies at 23 – that he could have avoided the shit sandwich I’ve served him. It hurts so much to know that he wishes he had never met me, but I understand why he feels that way. I tell him that I hate what I’ve done to him and how much it hurts and that I can’t change it but I will keep stacking good things on top of the bad things so the bad things eventually become more difficult to drag to the surface. It isn’t enough, but it’s a start.

Klaatu –

you've been getting some amazing, diverse thoughts and ideas here. Especially from Butforthegrace (one "T")...read and re-read those posts. These SI forums offer the best free advice on the planet.

I’ve seen the advice to “take what is helpful and leave the rest” repeated over and over again on this site, and I feel incredibly fortunate and humbled to be in a position where I’m overloaded with helpful guidance all curated in one place for me to keep coming back to.

In addition to putting in the hard work, you need to stay strong...being a Wayward after DDay has moments of emotional darkness. Prior to my DDay I always thought of myself as an athletic, aggressive, confident, corporate tough guy...post DDay I was pathetically lonely, isolated, despondent, discouraged and depressed because of the shitstorm my cheating caused.

I am absolutely realizing how much strength I will need to get through this – not just for me, but for my BS and kids too. I find myself feeling all of these things: lonely, isolated, despondent, discouraged, depressed. In the darkest moments I hear my inner voice saying, “I’m not strong enough for this” and I have to fight it with one of my go-to mantras, “You are stronger than you think, you are stronger than you think” until I actually believe it’s true.

He believes that had he let himself see me for who I was at 21 when we met – a wild party girl – or that if he had the courage to dig for the truth rather than accept my lies at 23 – that he could have avoided the shit sandwich I’ve served him. It hurts so much to know that he wishes he had never met me, but I understand why he feels that way.

I was also betrayed by my LTFG, whom I had moved across the nation with to spend my life with in my early 20's. I know what he is going through because I've gone through it.

I reckon that your BH has a bundle of thoughts and feelings, many of them conflicting. Yes, it is likely that part of him "wishes he had never met you." Yet at the same time part of him must certainly realize he has a good thing with you right now. Unlike many couples, it sounds like you have grown in wisdom and commitment and maturity over time, and that the marriage has gotten better with time. That's more than many ever get in their marriages.

It seems conflict avoidance and a need for external validation are common traits among WSes, and I would say my impulse to hide originated from both of these traits – not wanting to experience conflict and also curating the version of myself that I want others to see so they will like me. I see it, but how do I go about fixing it?

This is something I wish I had more insight into, not just because it would be helpful to you but also because it might've helped me when my own marriage was going down the tubes due to my exWW's extreme conflict avoidance. I had no idea how to address it because I'm the opposite. I'm okay with confrontation and when there's conflict in a relationship my impulse is to dive straight in and work on it. I've also never needed much external validation. I just am who I am and people can either like it or not. I suppose it's a good thing that most people seem to like it.

As much as I try to be self-aware, the truth is that even as I sit here typing this up, the closest thing to an explanation I can think of for why I am the way I am is that it's a product of my upbringing. My parents placed heavy emphasis on personal responsibility and always doing the right thing, even if people hate you for it.

This isn't to say I'm all sunshine and rainbows either. Sometimes I'm too forceful and blunt. Tact has never been my strong suit even though I have improved little by little over the years. My insistence that people take responsibility for their actions has also made me come across as unempathetic to others, and I can't deny that there's probably some truth to that. I'm also an exceptionally harsh self-critic. Not because I feel like I'm failing to please others, but because I'm not living up to my own standards. I struggle to ever be happy with the amount of effort I put into anything.

Anyway, I'm getting off-track here. I think that for you, the best tool at your disposal for figuring out how to hack away at the roots of those undesirable characteristics so you can plant something healthier in their place is IC. The entire profession is there to help people get to the bottom of the issues that plague them so that they can become mentally and emotionally healthier. Make sure you've got a good therapist who challenges you. You'll know you do when you have weeks where you wish something would come up that would let you cancel your appointment, or when you want to curse your therapist under your breath, or when you leave some sessions feeling pretty low. Much of therapy is confronting the things inside you that are broken or malfunctioning, and that's not easy.

The work in front of you is big and daunting, but I personally think you have what it takes to do it. You've made mistakes post-DDay and you're almost certainly going to make more, but you've also owned the ones you've made. Keep working on yourself and keep showing your husband love, patience, respect, and honesty. Like others here have said, I really am rooting for the two of you. Most waywards don't have what it takes to become good candidates for R. I think you're one of the exceptions.

Flawed, how are you? Often, holidays can be difficult periods for couples in the midst of post DDay emotions.

We’ve had several “good” days in a row where things felt sort of normal and we were able to talk about my affair without descending into the pit of rage where we normally find ourselves. This is partly because my BS has actually had what I guess would be called an EA with a former COW that he ended in August 2018 – two months before I came clean. He has done some of his own TT and just this past week divulged two details that he was the most ashamed to share as a way to encourage me to share anything else that I was hiding. We talked through my fuzziest memories and I now feel confident that my BS has the whole story, but my BS may never trust that he does. And I totally get it. I lied for 12 years and truly can’t remember every detail that he needs to find closure. He will always question whether I really can’t remember or if I’m still hiding from him.

Sooo, I feel compelled to share the gritty, disgusting details of my affair here in the hopes that I can help my BS find closure.

*Edited to remove gritty details*

To answer this question:

Also, I gather there were just a handful of sexual encounters. Like 3 or 4. I find this unusual for a limerent A where you had about 6 months working with the guy, and you had plenty of opportunities because of your late working hours. Why were there so few sexual acts? And, on the flip side, why did you engage in sex the few times it happened, as opposed to all the times you didn't. From the AP's perspective, he was a young dude with a hot new female sex partner. I think he would have had sex with you as often as possible. I reckon you were the limiting decider.

I wanted him to be the pursuer so I waited for him to present an opportunity and then I took it. We had limited opportunities during the 2ish-month PA. As I mentioned above, we weren’t sneaking away into dark corners during work, we never went to each other’s apartment because we both had significant others, we didn’t meet up after work besides that one time because we had SOs waiting for us, we were both broke and couldn’t afford hotel rooms (the thought never even crossed my mind).

My BS thinks the only reason I stayed with him is because my AP had a girlfriend. I’ve been working hard to convince my BS that this isn’t why I lied my ass off to steal a second chance with him. I was madly in love with him and committed to him when I made that choice to move across the country to start a life with my him. I knew what we had was special and that I threw it away. I lied to steal it back. This is something I wrote to my BS this morning:

I couldn't deal with how hard it was to adjust to new everything, including living with you, and I coped with it in the absolute worst possible way. You absolutely were the object of my desire when I moved out here. I lost sight of you - and of me - when things got tough. But I knew how lucky I was to be with you even when I was treating you like absolute garbage. I really, really wanted to find my way back to the deep love and commitment I had for you when I chose to move. I lied to you so I could have the chance to do that. My love for you strengthened and I grew more committed to you than ever before. I am soooo ashamed that my commitment to you wavered and was then strengthened because I came so close to losing you and really, truly could not imagine living without you. I hate that it took almost losing you to want to do everything in my power to make sure I never lost you. I should have been fighting for you from the start rather than taking your love for granted. I was testing the waters with my AP and after seeing him the 4th time - the time that felt closest to a relationship - I knew that I could never feel for him as deeply and profoundly as I loved you. I hate that I still craved his attention and wanted to be the object of his desire when I saw him out at the club that last night, but that was about me seeking validation. It wasn't about me wanting to be in a relationship with him. That's why it was so easy for me to make a clean break with him. I knew that I wanted you and that I would do anything (including lie for the rest of my life) to be with you.

[This message edited by Flawed at 5:59 PM, February 8th (Friday)]

It sounds like you wanted to come out with the full truth before. What was different about the time that you finally told him ? Why then? Did you get close to doing that before and decided against it ?

Why did it happen then ? I think there is something more telling there.

His EA. I am not saying it was not one, but when you are a hammer everything looks like a nail. Be careful. Is this an attempt to make yourself feel better about your choices ? Was his EA a unconscious attempt at leveling the playing field ?

Further was the EA a "conscience clearer," that allowed you to realize that he made a mistake too therefore the likelihood of him leaving was less or that you would feel less responsible if the M did end ? Be honest about it even if it hurts.

I think these are good things to discuss with your IC too. Motivations are so, so important in understanding ourselves and ultimately finding the ever elusive why. I feel there is a lot more buried there that needs to be explored and healed. Mostly stuff that happened before you met your H. Our childhoods impact us more than we give them credit for.

Lastly,

In some ways I think it really pisses him off to know that I’m so invested in working on myself now,

Why do you think that ? Has he said as much ? Or is this you assigning the words to him without him actually saying that ? The thing to keep in mind as you become who you want to be and lose that dysfunction everyone in your life benefits including you.

I get impression you keep telling yourself you are not good enough for him. Stop that. Not helpful to anyone. That is open to his interpretation and his choice. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

If you feel you are less than he deserves what is holding you back from being the wife that he does deserve today ? Just for today, nothing befofe or after matter. Further what about being the "Flawed," that you deserve ?

Once you are whole, feel good about yourself, love yourself, it benefits you, but also the people closest to you do as well.

Think about it. If you can't see the value in you what chance does anyone else have ?

Sorry for the long winded answer, but trying to help you get deeper. The past can't be changed. The present and future can. Focus forward more than backwards. Apologies for the things you can't change and work towards changing the one that you can.

I've not read your incredibly long post. Maybe later tonight, when I have time.

In the meantime, I would reiterate that I think your heart and head are both in the right place, and moving in the right direction. So the main things for now are patience and perseverance. Breathe deeply. Hydrate. Exercise as often and as much as you can. And never stop reminding your man that you ain't finna let him go.

I agree with OldWounds, below, that the main value of this is that it rebuilds intimacy and authenticity in your relationship. As painful as the details are, the increased intimacy from the naked honesty is stronger.

An important step for you is to work on being sure it won't happen again next time you find yourself in a situation where you can feel those feelings again. It happens. A few kids. Self-consciousness about body post-babies. 25 years of marriage, partners becoming workhorses for the kids. Then along comes Pepi LePeu and coos saccharine words in your ears...

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 5:22 PM, December 19th (Wednesday)]

The details are always especially painful, but as someone who was betrayed, I understand why we need to know.

While every 'event' matters, what matters more to me was that there wasn't anything left just between my wife and her AP -- no secrets, no special hidden moments. I wanted all the time stolen from me accounted for. It took my wife a few months to understand it and kept some of the worst details to herself, in hopes she wouldn't do anymore damage.

But the damage is as much the deceit to me as the deeds.

With every tough, horrible answer my wife gave me, it was a step toward authenticity. The marriage needed a brand new foundation based on as much trust as possible.

Anyway, it's all tough work, all uphill for a while. Being as open and honest as possible is an important part of the process. Hopefully, it leads to healing for both of you, however things end up.

No real need for all the details here, but do make sure CantBe gets all the information he has asked for.

The only questions I would have is -- based on what is written here -- what would stop you from needing this kind of attention from someone else in the future? What has changed about your self care that allows you to be a safer partner?

And the same for him, if he was suggesting he had some boundary issues as well along the way.

The only way a rebuild works to me, is if everything is built back the right way.

[This message edited by Oldwounds at 3:32 PM, December 19th (Wednesday)]

Hey, Flawed! It takes courage to put the "ugly" truth out there, it is excruciatingly painful (I know from my own disastrous A). But, it can give a Wayward an odd feeling of emancipation from continuing the destructive lies and deceit.

Time and again here I read BS and W stories involving TT, lies, half truths, omissions...and I cringe because they almost always send R efforts into a tailspin. Many BS have said the continued lies hurt as much as the cheating itself.

With the truth on the table now you can focus on fixing your issues and healing your BS and marriage.

Yes, there is a huge amount work left to do and the roller coaster ride is just starting (for both of you). But, I've got a feeling your marriage is going to survive this, I'd bet on it.

I continue to root for you and your husband. Stay strong!

[This message edited by Klaatu at 4:58 PM, December 19th (Wednesday)]

I didn't read the timeline letter you wrote for your BH. Too triggering for me.

But I doff my hat to you for having the courage to do it.

Flawed,I really feel for you both for what you have put him through. Having read his postings I think like him I wouldn't have wanted to know ,and wished you had taken it to the grave . I know that goes against what lots of experts tell us ,but do you actually feel any better for your disclosure seeing his anguish and hurt,im just wondering in case there are anyone else thinking of coming clean after all these years ,instead of being truthful at the time when they should have. Is it really worth his pain from your confession, to make you feel better, which in all truthfulness I suspect you are not . You thought your marriage was strong enough to confess but there are not many marriages that strong .

I'm afraid from reading his views it is a double betrayal that you should do so with someone as lowly as a retail worker,who in all fairness could be a cancer specialist . He is just hearing about it now so in his mind eye he is someone who only works retail ,who you and your husband would certainly would have nothing in common with . ( his words I'm afraid)

Flawed,

I am in a remarkably similar situation as your husband. (google “S.I. cheating while engaged” if you want to read my story) We are in our early 40’s and have young kids. My wife recently (April 2017) confessed to a 2 month affair with a married man that took place 11 years ago. This occurred with a COW and happened shortly after we got engaged. My wife stayed in contact with AP during 5 years of our marriage and they met up on several occasions. (I do not believe there was a PA in marriage but understand why most here would doubt that.) The psychological pain this betrayal has caused is beyond anything I can describe. Long story short … I get where he is at and his thoughts in his post are nearly identical to mine. That said, I have a few thoughts and questions for you.

I admire how you have handled this in the aftermath. It seems that you have taken the initiative to read and learn from this site. You have handled the 2x4’s from BS with grace and responded well to their constructive criticism. You are in I.C., you bring up the affair daily instead of trying to escape or minimize it. From your post, it sounds like you are committed to doing “the work” and doing everything you can to help him heal.

Most of all, you have shown tremendous courage and most of all, respect for your husband by telling him the gritty details of the sexual and emotional aspects the affair. I know this was brutal. Disclosing these details does a a few very important things:

1.) Proves to him that you have chosen total honesty and full disclosure at your own expense … and demonstrates that you are more committed to him, his needs and transparency/honesty than you are to protecting yourself … and in his mind, your AP.

2.) The disrespect you showed BH during the affair was horrible. Doing this demonstrates that you love, respect and trust him enough to be totally vulnerable.

3.) Eliminates any secrets and memories that up till now, were shared only between you and AP. It is so important to make him part of this.

4.) Prevents him from years or even decades of wondering “what actually happened” and imagining these events over and over and over in his mind. Instead of fighting against ghosts that he will never be able to defeat, he knows and understands EXACTLY what he needs to overcome and forgive.

I say these things from personal experience. I would give anything for the brutal truths and transparency that you have provided your husband.

As Oldwounds said, “With every tough, horrible answer my wife gave me, it was a step toward authenticity.”

In a nutshell, the most important things you can do include: (from my perspective)

- Always tell the truth … but not just the truth, be totally transparent with your thoughts and feelings and in response to his questions.

- Do not be defensive. Do not minimize what you have done. Do not justify. Own it.

- Take the lead and be proactive with reading, I.C., etc. Don’t wait for him to ask.

- Share what you learn as you come across something that is insightful in S.I. or a book.

- If you have another memory resurface, tell him. (Ask him if he wants to know) It will be painful but it will build trust … and trust is the most valuable currency.

- Put his needs above your own. Recognize when he is struggling and ask him what he needs … then do it.

- Bring it up and ask if he would like to talk. It is always on his mind. Don’t make him be the one to always initiate.

- Go above and beyond sexually. He feels emasculated and destroyed that you chose someone else over him. You can do a lot to repair that … get creative and take the initiative to show him that you desire him.

I have a few questions I would like you to answer if you are able.

1.) My wife claims that she cannot remember anything about any of the 10 sexual encounters she had with AP except for 2 very minor details. (I don’t understand how that is remotely possible as I am able to recall details of sex from 25 years ago.) Do you believe this is possible? Did you have any difficulty remembering the details of what happened? What helped you recall?

2.) How did keeping this secret for over a decade impact your marital relationship?

3.) How did keeping this secret impact your mental health and self-esteem?

4.) Did your affair and lack of disclosure have any impact on intimacy with your husband in marriage? Both emotional and sexual.

5.) Did you think about the affair on your wedding day or leading up to it? How often did it cross your mind?

You have received some outstanding guidance from the members of this site. Keep reading and re-reading their posts. I’m rooting for your and your husband … he is worth the effort. You seem to be doing the things that give you the best chance at surviving this … and possibly having a stronger marriage down the road.

I think WTFOVER (above) said it well.

The thing that jumps out from your thread is that it follows the script, almost exactly, of so many other A threads here on SI. The roots of this are so common.

In the long run, I think you'll be happy you disclosed this to your BH. It was somewhat of a festering boil in your marriage. Now, the boil has been lanced. Painful and pustulant at first, but later healed.

The only odd bit was the comment of your co-worked upon walking in on you two in the bathroom. Don't believe I've heard of a situation where somebody made that comment in that circumstance.

Flawed, that was difficult to read. I'm sure it was more difficult to type up. And I'm sure it was most difficult of all for your husband to have to hear. I appreciate your willingness to put all of that out there, and I hope it was a good exercise in the service of breaking your habit of minimizing and hiding things.

My BS thinks the only reason I stayed with him is because my AP had a girlfriend. I’ve been working hard to convince my BS that this isn’t why I lied my ass off to steal a second chance with him.

I'm not sure how much he's expanded upon that thought, but I can tell you as a BS that it would be nearly impossible for me to believe that my wife would cheat on me and not prefer her AP. It's such a huge risk to take, such a horrible thing to do, and a clear statement that our love and our commitment to you isn't very valuable to you, or at least it's worth a whole lot less than a tumble between the sheets with your AP. It's an action that lifts up the POSOM to a position that's impossible to compete with. How can the OM not be better in every way if you were willing to risk everything and be so careless with the heart that was given to you just for a few trysts with him?

I know you said you had no intention of ever leaving your husband for the OM. And I'm sure you're being truthful about that. The hangup, however, is that while you were in a committed relationship with your husband, you did in fact choose the OM over him. You chose to share with him the biggest secret of your life while your husband walked in ignorance. How many times over the years do you think that your AP has laughed to himself about what a fool your husband is for marrying that party girl who he spent a few months having his fun with? You may not have considered that question, but I guarantee your husband has. For your AP to have spent all these years with this key piece of info about you while your husband knew nothing is, I guarantee, a source of great anger.

I was madly in love with him and committed to him when I made that choice to move across the country to start a life with my him. I knew what we had was special and that I threw it away. I lied to steal it back.

I'm sure your BH has pointed out that in the face of what you did that any claims of love and commitment at that time are laughable. If all it took was a few stares and smiles from some random idiot at your job to get you to start cheating, you were completely checked out. No love, no commitment. Just leading your BH on for lack of better options - until you found one in your AP. So you see, even if your AP wasn't that great, the way you treated your husband at the time meant he was so insignificant that you clearly preferred him to your husband.

In other words, there's no winning here. Either your BH was good but your AP was amazing, or your AP wasn't that great but your BH was worthless.

I don't think it would be accurate to say that you loved your BH during those early years. Rather, I think it would be accurate to say that you had a strong yet selfish desire to be with him and that you were willing to do whatever was necessary to ensure that you got what you wanted, which was a wedding and a life together. I think learning what loving someone actually is came later, and has been a work in progress for you that has accelerated since DDay. The reason I think this way is because for me at least, an integral part of love is respect, and respecting someone while simultaneously controlling their knowledge of their own reality is not possible.

So if you're holding onto the notion that you really were madly in love with your BH at the time, and that you really were committed to him, I too would reject that assertion. I think you were selfish. I think you had no respect for him. I think you wanted what you wanted and weren't going to let an inconvenient thing like truth get in your way. I think you weren't girlfriend material, let alone wife material. I think you had a good man you didn't deserve and that it took you too long to realize it and even longer to learn how to start being deserving of him.

I also think you've grown tremendously since then. Even though your confession was only made because you believed your odds of keeping your marriage intact were good enough to survive it, it was a good decision that turned out to be the start of a new phase in your personal growth. You've shown empathy, you've shown humility, you've shown transparency, and most importantly you've finally started to respect your husband enough to let him see his reality for what it is so that he can make informed decisions.

I don't really have any questions. I just want to encourage you to keep working on yourself and your marriage. You're making real progress and if I can see it, I know your BH can see it. I think one day in the not too distant future you'll find yourself down on one knee offering him a ring that he'll be able to confidently accept.

Thanks so much for all of your responses. I’m still processing and will need some time to respond to all of your good questions and reflections.

It sounds like you wanted to come out with the full truth before. What was different about the time that you finally told him ? Why then? Did you get close to doing that before and decided against it?

When my BS recently asked me whether I had slept with my AP (for the first time in years), I realized that he was still incredibly wounded and insecure from my betrayal, even when he thought it was just a kiss. I realized it would continue to haunt him and that I would either have to continue lying to him for the rest of our lives as I had originally planned or come clean. I haaaated how it felt to lie to him again, but I didn’t want to come clean in the middle of a restaurant on our anniversary dinner. I stewed over it for a week, had a few panic attacks thinking about whether to come clean, I asked one friend for advice on what to do (she told me not to tell him the truth), I called a few therapists to try and get an objective opinion but wasn't able to connect with one before my anxiety bubbled over, and then I just couldn’t wait any longer and felt like I had to confess.

I really regret not taking more time to prepare and understand what he would need from me. I was very naïve and thought that our marriage was in such a good place that we would be able to weather the storm I was about to rain down. I was very selfish to wait until I thought he would not want to leave to tell him the truth, but I had planned on taking this awful secret to my grave. I realized that what I had done would never be forgotten, I couldn’t keep lying to him, and that he deserved to know the truth. Another reason I told him was because we had been wanting to seek MC to improve our negative fighting patterns and communication (overall we had a very good marriage and wanted to make it better), and I thought that work would be in vain if I kept holding onto this secret, that making real progress would require transparency.

His EA. I am not saying it was not one, but when you are a hammer everything looks like a nail. Be careful. Is this an attempt to make yourself feel better about your choices ? Was his EA a unconscious attempt at leveling the playing field?

Good questions. My BS didn’t tell me about his EA until after I confessed the truth about my affair. He never planned on telling me about it because he cut off communication with the OW before things physically went too far. He has told me that he definitely thought about my “kiss” with my AP and used what I had done to justify his behavior. He indulged in the good feelings that came with heavy flirting and aggressive attempts by the OW to get him to have sex with him because he knew he was not physically attracted to her and didn’t want to have sex with her. He liked being aggressively pursued in ways he never felt pursued by me.

What he did with the OW does not make me feel better about my choices. In many ways it makes me feel worse. He tells me over and over how much he thought of me when he repeatedly turned the OW down for sex, that he compared her to me and I won every time. The fact that I didn’t do the same for him is incredibly painful for both of us. I remind him that I wasn’t thinking about anyone but myself at the time, but he still feels as though I must have thought more of my AP than him because of what I did. I get it, but I hope he will eventually realize that it was all about me and my character deficiencies and not at all about him.

[In some ways I think it really pisses him off to know that I’m so invested in working on myself now.]

Why do you think that ? Has he said as much ? Or is this you assigning the words to him without him actually saying that ?

Aaah good catch. Yes, I was projecting my emotions on him. He appreciates the work I’m doing, but definitely wishes I had been doing this work over the past 12 years. He had encouraged me to go to counseling many times before. I think I was scared to, maybe because I would have to confront the ginormous skeleton in my closet, and so I made up excuses about how hard it was to find a therapist with availability who was in network yada yada yada. I’m angry at myself for not being in therapy all these years.

I get impression you keep telling yourself you are not good enough for him.

Ugh. This is tough. I do think I’m good enough for him now, but I’m terrified that who I am and who I am working on becoming may still never be enough to tip the scale in favor of him staying with me. So that’s where this feeling of not being good enough comes from – that no matter how good enough I am, he may not be able to live with what I’ve done to him.

An important step for you is to work on being sure it won't happen again next time you find yourself in a situation where you can feel those feelings again. It happens. A few kids. Self-consciousness about body post-babies. 25 years of marriage, partners becoming workhorses for the kids. Then along comes Pepi LePeu and coos saccharine words in your ears...

Completely agree with this. We have talked a lot about establishing firm boundaries in our relationship in addition to committing to be more open and honest with each other. It’s funny you mention self-consciousness about body image. I was incredibly self-conscious about my body for so many years. I previously mentioned that I had an eating disorder; it wreaked havoc on my body and made me even more self-conscious. Ironically, I have never felt more comfortable in my own skin than I have now – after having two babies. I have more love and respect for my body now than I’ve ever had before because I grew two beautiful babies and watched them fatten up on my milk, and I’m really fucking proud of the extra wrinkles on my belly that prove what I was capable of. But I am still young and I know my body will continue to change, and I don’t ever want to feel like I need validation from some Pepi LePeu to feel good about myself.

More soon…

We had a rough night last night. My BS asked me about this:

The only odd bit was the comment of your co-worked upon walking in on you two in the bathroom. Don't believe I've heard of a situation where somebody made that comment in that circumstance.

I remember her saying it, but I think what actually happened is that she opened the bathroom door, saw us, closed the door, and waited for us to leave the bathroom so she could use it. As I was hysterically leaving the bathroom, I think she actually made the comment directly to my AP, “I wish you would take me into the bathroom…” I remember it because at the time, it made me feel worse about what I was doing (I know how awful that sounds). She had a crush on him and she was single and it should have been her instead of me.

Then we started talking about this night, my most recently surfaced memory:

It was a few nights to a week after the second time we had sex, and my AP had asked me to meet him in the same parking lot where we had met to drive to the pot party together after work. As my BS and I were calmly talking about this memory, the entire memory surfaced and I told him everything that happened with my AP that night (we were talking through different scenarios that triggered the memory). My AP and I did not have sex that night because of time constraints (ugh). I had not called my BS to explain I would be home late so I felt like I had at most about a half hour to drive to the parking lot where I met him, spend some time talking, making out, groping, and then to get home. This memory kills me because I was sober and it wasn’t a night of drunken heated passion – it was a night of mostly talking and some playful touching.

The other night when we talked through this, I felt certain I had the whole truth and shared the truth with my BS. But I’m ashamed to say that I really fucked up…again. I was satisfied with what I was able to recall the other night because I remembered the talking/kissing/groping and that was enough for me to stop digging for more truth. I wanted to accept that as the full and complete truth of what happened. Last night my BS kept questioning me about this: Why? Why would you stop there after having had sex with him twice? How could you not have done anything more? The more he asked, the more I questioned myself because he’s right – it doesn’t make sense that we would just stop there. My BS asked me if I went down on him, and I had to face the truth that I did. But I struggled to own it last night (my biggest fuckup of the night) because my memory of doing this isn’t clear. It’s like I had more of an intuition that that’s what happened than actual memories, but the more I thought of it the more I believed it to be the truth. I was lying to myself more than I was lying to him; I wanted to accept what I had previously remembered as the whole story and so I stopped searching for more. He is rightfully so angry and disappointed and pained by my lies. I’m angry and disappointed at myself. I fully grasp the repercussions of this and that I’m sabotaging my chances at R. I’m seeing a new IC today and will be discussing this with her. I feel like such a hopeless piece of shit, but I’m going to keep working and fighting.

Put aside the emotion for a moment, and consider only the process of recalling events from that long ago. Lots of science shows that the memory is not photographic nor linear. It categorizes and reassigns events, filing them away in a highly subjective manner.

There are many other layers of difficulty in your case:

-Lots of drinking and drug use at the time means that your memory of the period overall is blurred.

-You had just moved across the country to a new city. Life was a whirlwind. I remember my life shortly after a big move. There is a sense that everything is slightly surreal.

-There was the storm of conflicting emotions inside of you from the reality of cheating on your BH.

Add to that a decade or so of wishing it had never happened. It should come as no surprise to either of you that these memories are deeply buried and locked away.

This is why you, as the wayward, need to have patience and perseverance. It will not be easy to piece this together, and you cannot expect to do it without revisiting it multiple times. You often see on SI a recommendation to create a written timeline. This is helpful because you can add details from the rest of your life to that timeline and, as you do this and flesh it out, this process can trigger memories.

Rather than look at last night as a "rough night", perhaps you might look at it as a "fruitful night", where you were able to flesh out your memory through the catharsis of revisiting the events. This process will doubtless have at least one or two (or more) additional sessions of this nature.

Patience.

Perseverance.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 7:58 AM, December 21st (Friday)]

He is rightfully so angry and disappointed and pained by my lies.

It is the only reaction to more details.

As I said before, every horrible truth my wife told me -- was horrible, but they were steps towards being honest and authentic.

The worst moments were the lies she held in, supposedly to protect me, when it was really about protecting her.

Our MC described the fear my wife had -- because she was certain if she added one more horrible truth, it would be the final straw.

I understand the fear, but the only way back to a real relationship is being completely honest.

Once my wife figured that out, I got the whole story. And honestly, some of those details still haunt me, but I finally had someone willing to own her actions, all of them. It wasn't easy for her, but I appreciated her strength of owning it all.

The truth wasn't our final straw, it was our new start.

I echo what OldWounds said. The one thing I appreciated about my xWLTGF was that she was brutally and painfully honest with me when dumping me for another man. Frank, honest, and detailed. It hurt, a lot, but over the long run we've remained on friendly terms and the main reason is that I know that, no matter what, I can trust her to tell me the truth. It means a lot.

You know I am in your corner and a supporter...

Please re-read my humble posts.

In the vast universe of cheating (even in your A scenario), omitting giving your AP oral in a parking lot encounter is not epic. However, to your emasculated husband looking for some ray of light in his darkness (i.e. 100% honesty, disclosure and truth), it is a monumental gut punch at a hyper-critical moment in time (the very beginning of your attempted R following multiple TT/omission sessions).

In generalized terms, successful R is about a Wayward re-establishing themselves as a Trustworthy and Safe partner. Sadly, you could have avoided these derailments.

Flawed, get it together...you know what you have to do. The number of chances us Waywards have at this R thing are limited. Many of us support you, but you have to help yourself.

Remember, you are NOT alone...most of us Waywards posting here have survived similar shitstorms we created from our cheating, and you can too. But, learn from and don't repeat the same mistakes over and over.

All is not lost, so don't give up. Give your husband and kids big hugs and tell them you love them. Again, you know what to do...so, do it!!! (cue the Rocky theme song).

[This message edited by Klaatu at 7:14 PM, December 22nd (Saturday)]