SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

OIN,these threads have started some good convos. When I asked him about internet porn, he said, "I am not going to tell you my porn preferences!"

I mean, I thought I was allowed to choose my own clothing. But it turns out, I'm not. My clothing is not clothing, it's a message. I need to touch each of my pieces of clothing to see if it sparks joy, and now I need to stare at it and understand its message.

Maybe I'm just being stupid here, but... [warning everything follows may be stupid]

I dress a certain way to go to an interview. A funeral. A date. If I was single and going to go to a bar or club looking to meet someone I'd likely dress a certain way for that.

So if I dressed for an interview and someone goes 'got an interview?' and I said 'yup'... didn't my clothing send a message?

And even if it did or didn't send a message, I still don't get how I didn't choose to wear it...?

Alright guys and ladies.

You do not have to agree with each other, however you can make your points in a respectful manner and without generalizing. If you are unable to do so, walk away.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 6:26 PM, April 5th (Friday)]

Some various anecdotes and things I've learned from them:

Back in high school, I was taking this psych class, and we covered "the bystander effect". Less than a week later, I was taking the bus to my dad's in the evening, and three teenagers and an adult got into a verbal, quickly escalating fight. Among other things, the adult had called the teens the N-word. When my stop came, I got off, and the girl of the trio got off too, but the two boys stayed on to fight with the adult. The bystander effect was weighing pretty heavy on my mind, so I got back on - at that point, the bus driver, who was like 4'10" at most, was standing with his arms out between the youth and the adult, who were all above 6'. I yelled, "Violence is not the answer!" (only thing I could think of, and it sounds corny as hell), and was scared, but believe it or not, the adult who was fighting jolted and turned to look at me to say (in a fairly normal voice) that's what the teens were doing. In that interim, the teens got off the bus, even though the confrontation continued verbally through the window, and the bus driver sped off as quickly as he could. What I learned: saying something loudly is sometimes enough to snap people out of whatever violent haze they've entered. Plus, that bus driver on his own wasn't able to stop it - having an extra person helped, I think.

This past Monday, I was leaving my H's SRO, and in front of me there were a bunch of people yelling, and a guy with a crate going towards an older woman in a chair and threatening to hit her with the crate. I thought I saw him bringing the crate down at her head, so I said, "do NOT hit her with that crate!" Just like the guy on the bus, he jolted, and then said he wasn't. At that point everyone else was yelling (and I heard a couple people saying that they thought I was going to call the police) so I waited for a moment to make sure there wasn't physical violence escalating, and then left. What I learned: in spite of how scary the guy looked (and this was in a scary neighborhood), he didn't escalate anymore once he was called out (at least in the next 3-5 minutes that I saw).

A different time: I was getting off the train in the early afternoon. There was a man yelling at another man in the street and trying to follow him and attack him, while the other man kept trying to walk away. People had stopped to stare, but there weren't many people around, and no one had tried to stop it. I yelled to stop fighting. The aggressor turned to look at me. Each time he turned back to the other guy, I yelled either to stop fighting or to leave him alone. He let the other guy go and walked down the street in my direction. When I saw the fight had stopped, I turned and walked away too. I spent the next block terrified that he was going to jump me from behind, but he didn't. What I learned: men need protecting too (I already knew this, but this cemented it for me - sorry, NTV, I won't be able to stand by. And in retrospect, my calling them out didn't escalate them nor prompt any comments on how me being a girl made the other guy look weak, because it didn't.).

A different time several months ago, there was a couple in an argument on the train. It could have just been an argument, except that she was telling him to leave her alone and calling out for help, saying he was abusing her, and he said, "Oh, I'm abusive, huh? I will emotionally abuse the fuck out of you..." and trying to grab at her. So she stormed off to another car, and he went to follow her. I called out to him to stop. He actually paused and turned to look at me, and the look he gave me scared me, but I repeated anyway, "Please stop." He kept on anyway. As soon as he had left, all the other people on the car (who were mostly a big group of college kids) started laughing; I'm guessing it was nervous laughter, but I don't really know, and the laughter honestly pissed me off at the time. The guy was making it out to be that she was overreacting - whatever the situation, him following after her seemed like a really bad idea. And the thing that really gets me is, if everyone on the train had stood up or said something, even if someone had backed me up only after I was the first person to say something, that probably would have helped to diffuse the situation even more.

Another time, a few years back... I was on a bus going home in the mid-afternoon, and a hysterical guy got on the bus yelling about people coming after him and coming to get him. He stumbled all the way to the back of the bus (the driver hadn't moved nor shut the doors since the man got on) - there was a seat empty next to me, and I just had this feeling... Turned out to be right. The guy threw himself halfway into the seat and pushed his head against my arm and kept babbling, like he was trying to hide something. He wasn't trying to attack me and didn't seem to be acting suggestively, so I figured he was scared and decided that not moving would probably keep him calmer. A little bit later, a couple of guys came forward and were trying to urge him to back away and "let this nice lady be" - at that point I wasn't scared anymore, but hearing them stick up for me like that meant a LOT to me. It meant I was no longer alone dealing with it and someone had acknowledged what was going on. A bit later, the police came on the bus and pulled him off of it, and someone asked if I was OK and how I managed to stay calm. What I learned: having someone say something and acknowledge the situation out loud made me feel a lot safer.

Another situation: I know I've told the story here before of the guy in my mental health program who forced himself on me and forced a kiss. I had been struggling but unable to get free. I learned later that there were witnesses. They saw me struggling (before I froze up in terror) but didn't help me. One told later on what he saw to Mr Silver, who I wasn't dating yet (which is part of how we began dating). But no one helped me. No one stepped in to make it stop. And then the counselors blamed me, and at one point the witness burst into the room and said, "I support you, Silver! You should go after the person you love!" or something to that effect. Before and after that point I felt alone, ashamed, tainted, and a whole other host of unpleasant feelings, but that one moment when he said something gave me a brief feeling of relief. What I learned: when you leave a person alone with their harassment or abuse, they feel weaker and like it's their fault, and it's easier to exploit their trauma to make them feel even worse. Also, in retrospect: when you're the one being attacked, you freeze up sometimes. It's very hard to get yourself out of a bad situation if you're frozen, which is a normal response to being afraid. A bystander probably feels a lot less fear than the person in the situation, and that convinces me that they're in a better position to say, "Stop!"

One more: sitting in the lobby of the therapy center. It was when Mr Silver and I were dating, and he was there with me. Another client tried to hand me a book, but I didn't want to take it. So he stood over me and tried to run his hands over my hands and face. I was terrified - especially because the last time someone invaded my space I'd fought back (different incident than any of the above) and had been punished for it. Luckily Mr Silver was there: he firmly kept removing the man's hands, even though the man kept putting them back on my face. Finally after a minute, the man gave up and left us alone. W hat I learned: Mr Silver kept his head when I couldn't, and he persistently defended me and kept me safe no matter how many times the other client continued to overstep. People will overstep persistently and will probably not accept the first "no" or sign that you don't want to be there, so you need to be every bit as persistent. Which can be hard if you're terrified.

There are so many more incidents I could recount, but I have to go. But my takeaway message is: step up. Say something. Defend yourself if you can, defend others if you can. It's possible.

Edited: just saw the mods' announcement and wanted to make sure I am being respectful.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 7:41 PM, April 5th (Friday)]

I went out today and was met with nothing but hi and thank yous (for opening doors) and one man even called me mam. Cool.

I think I'm at that nice cougar age with the look of an old worn out witch that gets me nicety from others. Either they feel sorry for poor short old me OR they are honestly afraid I'll curse them hahah

I think having the hood up over my head was a good indication that I was just focused on my groceries and didn't want to be bothered had something to do with it as well. (Also added to the old worn out witch look) lol.

No catcalls tonight.

My brother had a best friend growing up. This friend was the tiniest, scrony (sp?) guy ever. He started to date a girl, a much larger girl/woman who was a bully. She treated him like shit.

One day my brother and a bunch of his friends were at our house. Tiny friend was there but gf was not. She ended up showing up later with a big ass guy (I don't recall who he was, friend of hers or brother?). She demanded tiny friend go home and started screaming at him out in the street. I should have called the cops at that point but I figured they would leave and all would be fine. Nope!

Before I knew it she was telling him to kill himself and she would help cause he was useless. My brother dashed out of the house with a baseball bat in hand because of the other guy with her. Everyone ended up outside and nothing physical happened but...

Guess who got arrested? My brother. He didn't threaten with the bat, never hit her or the other guy who got into his face. But since he had the weapon in hand he was charged with assault.

I believe the charge was lessened in court and my brother had to stay away from her for life. But still. This woman was threatening his friend with another guy there and my brother wasn't able to do anything without getting in trouble.

Of course my brother was stupid for grabbing the bat.

Soooo.

Okay ladies... I know you don’t like the fact y’all are being called out!!

Guys y’all are right they dress a certain way to get attention

If they are wearing a pantsuit your probably not going to notice compared to a short dress showing legs.

I was at a professional event with another female colleague. Remember we are in a male dominated field. I was already at the meeting and she comes waltzing in with this super short dress. Omg.. then she sits down and no matter how she tries to cross her legs all you see if hochi. Really really this girl thinks this is appropriate. At the break I told her she should go change because she was flashing the entire side of the room.

She just laughed

So this is a clear example of a woman that wants the attention because I don’t want to see her hoch.

Another thing is wearing sports clothing at work... ah no yoga pants on Friday is not work appropriate.

I am bombarded by all these women walking around in “yoga” workout clothes that aren’t going to yoga 🧘‍♀️ or the gym but parade themselves in super tight fitting clothes. You can basically read their lips and ass.. It not necessary unless your looking for attention.

I work out but change my clothes before going out in public because I’m sweaty and nasty.

If I didn’t have time to change I throw on lose sweats and T-shirt.

"I am bombarded by all these women walking around in “yoga” workout clothes that aren’t going to yoga 🧘‍♀️ or the gym but parade themselves in super tight fitting clothes. You can basically read their lips and ass.. It not necessary unless your looking for attention."

Sorry, but you are wrong. How do you know they don't exercise? As I've said before, I go to yoga almost every day. I run errands on the way home. So, I am almost always wearing yoga pants when I'm out in public. I am not trying to get attention.

Besides, yoga pants are way more comfortable than jeans or slacks. I wear them at home even when i'm not going out.

same ^^^

silver - glad you wrote that. I'm a school teacher who's about 5'7 but don't weigh much. I have come between several guys (and a couple gals actually) as they were about to start swinging and yelled stop fighting or something to the effect. They all stopped. Yeah,they weren't adults but it still worked, which is why I will step up no matter who is being harassed. If you can bring awareness to the event and if others can hear you, I believe they'll step in.

Coco - where the heck do I get that yoga emoji?

[This message edited by sewardak at 7:10 AM, April 6th (Saturday)]

RE: Yoga pants after the gym..

There's a grocery store in the same parking lot as the gym that I used to go to. I usually wear a pretty revealing tank top in the gym, a "muscle shirt" because, well.. I like the attention it draws and how it sets me apart from other people in the gym (because of my build). Anyway, my vanity and narcissism aside, sometimes I'd go shopping right after the gym, and, when I did, I'd always stop by my car to grab a tshirt to put on before going into the store. Not because I really cared if people looked, but just because a muscle tank top in the grocery store isn't exactly appropriate (and I think it scared people, which wasn't my intention at all).

A few times, however, I'd forgotten my tshirt and was about to fry up a leather shoe I had in the back I was so hungry, so I'd go into the grocery store in my tank top. People stared. People gawked. They did double takes. And, like I said, this wasn't my intention, I'd forgotten my tshirt, but it in no way stopped the sideways looks and glances that I'd get, both positive and negative (a lot of people would look with the "really, you're that insecure??" face (mostly women), some would look like "nice job" (mostly men), and a few would give me that "your good looking" face (about 50/50 men and women; gay men, while not nearly as common as woman, are far more likely, in my experience, to let it be known that they find another man attractive), very few, but it did happen occasionally).

Wearing a tshirt instead of a muscle shirt, I'd get almost no looks anywhere.

RIO - I think the difference might be that when we wear yoga pants, we don't think we're showing anything revealing. They're just like leggings and the good ones are made so that no bits are revealed. they're super comfortable. I think many gals have caught onto it and I probably have 25 pairs of yoga pants and 3 pairs of jeans. I'd hate to be the Levi Strauss company right now.

I think yoga pants are so mainstream no one really looks anymore. I did get harassed once at the grocery store for it but not since then.

silver - glad you wrote that. I'm a school teacher who's about 5'7 but don't weigh much. I have come between several guys (and a couple gals actually) as they were about to start swinging and yelled stop fighting or something to the effect.

Most men are very reluctant to hit a woman. Thank god. But the same is not true if a man jumps into the fray. A man jumping between two men is as likely to escalate the situation as diffuse it, where a woman jumping between two men is, IMHO, less likely to end up in a three way fight. Jumping between two women?? All bets are off on that one, I suspect that's a likely to result in a 3 way fight for women as it is for men! Kudos to you for doing it, because unless I thought one was going to kill the other (or one was my wife or family member), no way I'm jumping into that. Chances of going to jail, nearing 100%, chance of losing an eye, close to the same!

RIO - I think the difference might be that when we wear yoga pants, we don't think we're showing anything revealing.

I understand, but what you think is revealing doesn't matter, it's all in the eye of the observer and the situation. Wearing yoga pants to the gym is likely going to get a lot less looks than wearing them to the grocery store which will get even less looks them wearing them to church. I realize that they are all the "rage" now, and as they become more and more common (is that even possible??!) I suspect you'd get fewer looks today than you did 10-15 years ago. But you can think they're not revealing all day long, they are VERY revealing. Your genitalia is far more on display in yoga pants than mine wearing loose workout pants and a tank top, that's for sure.

ha! then we're back to our original premise: I don't wear them to impress anyone or want attention but to be comfortable. So guys, we don't care what you think, it's not for you, and you don't get to say anything to us or perceive we want anything from you.

Young woman at work, around 32 years old - about 5 ft tall - lean, has some kind of tattoo between shoulder blades which can be partially seen when wearing a certain style of pullover top.

Almost ALWAYS wears 3-4 in "high-heel" shoes

rarely wears anything on the bottom other than pants that are so tight she would have to take them off to fart (apologies to NTV)

I would guess from what she wears that there are streach-fit bluejeans too as she has some that fit like a second skin - like all pants she wears.

She DOES do physical fitness and teaches(?) yoga

and she has a perfect figure from the waist down

Above the waist - rarely wears anything tight - very rare

Observation - she is probably an "a" cup size

Adding, women don't get any prettier and she has naturally long eyelashes and doesn't wear much makeup and I can't say I have seen her with lipstick.

Her manicure is always perfect too. She has very pretty smile and is always friendly. (except when her migraine strikes)

Divorced over a year "Husband decided he didn't want to be married anymore" is all I know.

So all - can you comment on your interpretation of her work place appearance? (We work in an environment that is 90% married male nerds)

Please post your opinion and leave out what you THINK she is thinking.

It boggles my mind that not only are ass-lips-and-legs-hugging yoga pants standard garb now, for as insanely revealing and provocative as they are, but that they're accepted in offices. I see it all the time. I have to remind myself that tight pants are in, even with men. But don't get it twisted, whatever the aim is, it matters not one bit. Men get to stare at asses all day. If that's worth your comfort, then I think we've found a win/win.

But specifically provocative clothing in an office gives me great pause. It's either "does she know what she's doing here?!" or "oooh, she knowz what she's doing here." Imagine men wearing leotards to work...

"to all - can you comment on your interpretation of her work place appearance? (We work in an environment that is 90% married male nerds)"

I just don't care. you do you, is what I say.

Hippo,

Without trying to empathize with her and figure out what she's thinking, that doesn't leave much room for actual commentary. What are we to say? I guess I'd think "she seems to give a shit about being stylish", but I would be assuming what she's thinking (which is that she likes to be stylish). I don't know what to say here. I wouldn't go "oh she's stylish" because I truly don't give a shit about women's style anyway. I'll never wear those clothes, what's it to me? And I really only care about my own personal style as a means of making myself seem like someone who's "well put together", whatever that means, which I guess is essentially just a mask for the broken, lonely man that I am inside

I will bring it back to a personal assessment of what I think professional and unprofessional office attire is. There's a spectrum for both sexes. I've hopped from closer to one end (the shlubby, wearing the bare minimum button down and dockers to fit in with zero regard for style or fit) to the other (belts which match my shoes, sweaters over top of button downs with the collar folded over the neckhole, nice-fitting pants which taper toward the bottom). On the polar ends, you've got the guy who doesn't shave and who wears borderline sweatpants into work because he places comfort over appearance, and the guy who dresses in a pinstripe suit with those little belts which hold up his socks who's range of motion is probably hindered a bit but goddamn does he look good *not* moving around much. Which one would you trust handling your account--or even just your spreadsheet?

In my humble opinion, as just some dude in the world who only just start giving a shit about his own style a few months ago, I find that Romy and Michele's High School Reunion creates the perfect spectrum of women's acceptable work attire with just the two main characters at the reunion. When they first arrive, they're dressed very sharply. Hair pulled up in a respectable do, all black all business, form-fitting, the buttons, the stripes, it all looks great. You'd think that they didn't just invent Post-its, but that they're also the patent attorneys who pushed it through. After they let their hair down, literally and figuratively, and change into those party dresses, that's the other side of the spectrum. If you ran into your kid's brain surgeon a week before his/her big operation, which outfit would you rather see the doctor out in?

Unfortunately for all of us, myself included, who'd rather just lounge around in loose hoodies to hide our insecurities, except for maybe one or two days a week where we're in a great mood and want to flaunt our shit, there's not a human being on this planet who isn't judging our appearance, in some way, shape, or form, every time they see us.

Edit: I need to clarify because I can see the wagons circling now around my incomplete analogy. In the Romy and Michele case, I pointed out the extremes, obviously, and compared seeing them out to a dude in his office environment. I'd love to say "fill in the blanks I left" but I know how these things go if someone doesn't agree, so I'll do it myself.

Romy and Michelle wearing a step above the cocktail dresses, bare minimum office acceptable, ass-hugging, cleavage type stuff vs. those great "business outfits", or even that white outfit the fashion editor was wearing. Who would you want handling your account and/or spreadsheets? And with the guys, let's say you ran into your child's brain surgeon wearing a "Female Body Inspector" shirt vs. a guy wearing a very nice polo and khakis. Again, what would you prefer he wear?

Okay, fixed it. Exit stage left.

[This message edited by AbandonedGuy at 8:42 AM, April 6th (Saturday)]

Most of the pants I wear now are more form.fitting than not. At least.in the upper part. Tight around the ankle drives me nuts. I like a boot cut more. Or bells lol

So a form fitting pant isn't saying I'm trying to show off my ass. It's a confort thing. The pants hold in the pouch I got from having twins on a 4'9" frame. It holds it in better. I also prefer boy shorts to less covering underwear while avoiding "granny panties"...Not that I don't wear them but I just don't want to).

I also usually wear a longer shirt...Not to cover up but because being short means generally adult clothes just don't fit nicely most of the time. I have a large chest and nothing covers that up! Men stare all the time. This does bother me but that's because if anyone states long enough I'm sure they will notice that one side is greatly different than the other due to surgery I had to remove a suspicious lump. I shouldn't be self conscious about that as I'm lucky, it wasn't cancer but on cold days it's very noticeable and yes it bothers me.

If you ran into your kid's brain surgeon a week before his/her big operation, which outfit would you rather see the doctor out in?

That's a perfect example of don't judge a book by its cover!!!

My former former doctor and my parents current doctor is a hippie! He clogs, plays the Banjo, has long hair and long beard is 6' and thin as a rail. He is dressed nicely in the office but not in classic doctor attire.

Not what you'd expect a doctor to look like. But he's the best damn doctor around.

Maybe we should just stop judging people by looks, clothes etc and see them as good humans first.