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I think he's trying to show me he doesn't really need therapy to change...

require it anyway. his choice.

I don't think it's a bad idea to draw out the specific things you need him to do to save your M and for you to consider staying.

Right now he really has had no consequences, you even have allowed him back in the bed, and he has done none of the work.......

The thing with giving him a to do list is you best be ready to carry through on consequences if he doesn't. If you do not, then he knows he never has to change anything, and you will rugsweep, and then you will be right back here in 6 months, or a year, or two.

Are you doing any IC? If not can you? I think you are dangerously close to rugsweeping the entire thing, and some IC may help you to find some clarity and strength to demand the respect you deserve.

Lp

If you want to lay it all out there, how his actions hurt you, how you feel about him now, what you need to see from him to even consider R, then I don’t think it’s bad to do that, ONE TIME.

But after that, let him lead the recovery if there is going to be one. And be prepared to follow thru with ramifications if he doesn’t.

Ask for everything you need to see, tell him you reserve the right to add things as they come up, and don’t make promises that guarantee reconciliation if he does them.

Then work on you and focus on your kids. You can’t make him do anything. I hope he does but percent chances are low.

I’ll PM you some ideas. Let me know if you cannot find it.

Take care.

Hi there, I am sorry that you find yourself in this awful situation. I have speed read the entire thread, I think I have kind of got the gist.

I want to start by sayin that this relationship is abusive and toxic, on both sides. He had absolutely no right whatsoever to become physical with you, but nor do you towards him. To make matters worse, there is a young baby and 2 other children in the middle of all this abuse. You are very honest in saying that you have hit him in the past and are now 'lashing out' at him again and hurling objects, ie the laundry basket. You do not need me to tell you that this is not acceptable, what if baby was accidentally hit?

I understand that you are badly hurt and are harbouring feelings of pain and frustration, but you cannot physically abuse him anymore than he can you. Both of you need to separate for now and get IC, not only for your sakes, but for the little one. Please do not misunderstand me, I am certainly not blaming you, I have severe PTSD myself and I understand how debilitating and life changing it can be. That is why I am gently asking you to be strong here and ask him to leave, if only temporarily. I know you are trying to bide your time for financial reasons, but your safety and the safety of your children must be your priority here.

For someone to be diagnosed with PTSD, they have suffered extreme trauma, whether it is a one off event, or years of drip drip abuse. With me it was a very serious assault, during which I felt I was going to die. (Not my husband or anyone known to me) With you it sounds as though you suffered years of torment in childhood. What you need right now is time and space away from each other, combined with intensive counselling. If you two are ever to make a success of your marriage, you both need to fix yourselves as individuals first. That is not to say that you could not date each other occasionally in a neutral environment, but you do need to live apart as I am concerned that this situation could escalate and someone will get seriously hurt, whether it is intentional or accidental. You cannot heal a burnt ass while you are still sitting on the fire.

I honestly do not believe that both of you staying under the same roof right now is conducive to healing your marriage, in fact quite the contrary. Sometimes you have to take a step back before you can move forward. I do not want to sound harsh at all, I really do feel so sorry for you, I am trying to advise you from my heart.

Forget the Whatsapp issue, that is kind of like worrying about a pimple when you have just been diagnosed with heart failure, it kind of fades into insignificance.

What you need to do imo, is tell him that he IS going to leave the house, that if he does not then you will seek a court order to have him removed, then do just that. Explain that you are doing this in the best interests of you, him and the kids, that if he has any love and respect, he will leave peacefully and continue to contribute financially whilst you both undergo counselling.

May I be so frank as to suggest that you ask yourself whether it is possible that you are finding excuses not to take positive action. If so, that is nothing to be ashamed of, it is human instinct to try to avoid pain and fear. But you have to be really honest with yourself now, you seem an intelligent woman who loves her children, I am sure you can appreciate that things will only deteriorate unless you take decisive action.

This does not mean to say that your marriage is over, but it stands far more chance of surviving and benefitting everyone involved if you split for now. Ask him today to leave amicably, explain why, give him 2/3 days to find somewhere, that is more than reasonable. Then it is imperitive that if he does not, that you take the necessary action to have him removed. You can then choose to ring the police and have him removed based on him slapping you, or you can get straight down to a solicitors office and get an injunction/retraining order within 24 hours.

Lp, I cannot stress to you enough how important it is that you take action NOW! stop playing phone tag with lawyers, making excuses why you can't get to see one or how none of them have returned your calls. You know that you are procrastinating and trust me when I say, this WILL get worse not better if you don't. Honestly I can identify with what you are doing/suffering etc more than you know. Taking that leap is not easy and you must be so afraid on top of everything else. I was in exactly the same position as you at one point, I ended up losing the house anyway. I wish I could show you a looking glass that reflects the future, please believe me when I say that avoiding the inevitable never ends well.

You say that for the most part now, he wants to talk and repair the marriage, so take advantage of this and work together though physically apart. If he listens and agrees, there is no need right now for lawyers, police etc you can both act like responsible adults. I know some people have advised you to ring the police immediately and report him, but playing devils advocate, he can also counter complain that you have assaulted him, especially if he is cunning enough to have recorded your outbursts (never underestimate). I can forsee one or both of you getting locked up, child protective services becoming involved, that is the last thing you need.

Please act now in order to secure the best possible outcome, for you, him, your kids and your future.

Very best wishes

BD x

Have you read Linda McDonald's short book: "How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair?" Download the free pdf and read it. It will really help you make your list of what he needs to DO to be R material. Then give it to him with your list. It is a recipe book for developing and showing true remorse, and doing the things needed to "re-build" the M. You will see right away whether he is up to the work.

Best to you!

Thank you so much everyone for taking the time to respond. I mean it when I say you all are truly lifesavers... I can't imagine where I'd be without this site to give me strength and resolve. I'm taking all of the advice and have decided to definitely write that letter, and I'm also going to order the book you suggested, Odonna!

Brokendreamer, I actually read a couple of your threads recently while perusing SI and I was literally in tears reading about what your WH did to you and how much suffering you went through. I saw on your most recent thread that you've come such a long way since then, and your strength really amazes me as your story is literally my worst nightmare... that I'll invest years in this man only to be tossed aside and abandoned. Some of your advice was a little painful to read, but only because it's true and I have major anxiety about separating (afraid he'll cheat during it). My WH and I both grew up in abusive homes (the source of my PTSD), and the last thing I want is to raise my children the same way. I know this sounds like excuses, but we've never gotten physical in any way when the kids were around. I did hit him back in December when I found the naked pics on his phone, but that's no excuse for physical abuse. There's never a good excuse for abuse. As for the hamper incident, it was a light cloth hamper so wouldn't have caused any injury even if it hit him, but it was still wrong to throw anything. The kids have definitely heard us yelling at each other though and I know that's very damaging to them and I know it needs to stop one way or another. We're barely arguing recently though, just some minor spats here and there (mostly initiated by me to be honest), but I know that can change at any time. I agree with you that a temporary separation is absolutely in order while we both get counseling. Unfortunately that would require him signing a year long lease for an apartment since there's no one he can stay with, and short term leases are impossible to find in my city, and right now there's not enough money for the deposit that would be required so it's going to be a bit tricky. I think we really do need to do it though, and I'm going to put serious thought into it. When I write the letter I think I'll make that one of the requirements.

I know I can always rely on everyone here to give me honesty and knock sense into me. It's hard to see my situation objectively so an outside perspective is truly priceless.

Hey LP

Maybe now would be a good time if your struggling to look back at some of your posts to other BS's, then you may find some objectivity you need for your own situation,

Looking from an outside perspective is sometimes what we need to do in our own lives,

Ive found it very helpful in keeping my strength when I've felt like throwing in the towel,

sometimes It can be very hard to practice 'what we preach'

I don't have any magic answers I just know whats working for me on a day to day basis, hopefully it can help you too.

Good luck

The McDonald book is available free in pdf on-line.

Hey Lp (((((((Hugs))))))))))

I am so glad you were not hurt or offended by me being straight speaking, believe me I really relate to your story and feel so bad for you. If it had not touched me so much, I would not have spoken so honestly. I know exactly where you are coming from, I did the same thing, everyone told me to leave, that it was toxic, 'think of the kids' etc Like you, I stayed hoping it would get better, I was afraid to step out into the great unknown, so I am not judging, indeed I am empathising. I understand what is going on in your mind, the hurt, confusion, fear and pain. You just want it all to go away, been there hun, bought the T shirt.

I too have been guilty of getting right up in his face, filled with anger and hurt, I could happily have punched it til i was exhausted! I just wish I could take off my head and put it on your shoulders for a while, so you can understand how much I relate to you. I can see snippets of my past in your situation an I am desperate to help you avoid making the same mistakes that I did. I never actually caught my ex cheating before this OW, but I would bet my life on it that he did, several times, I just could not prove it. I guess I used that lack of real proof to justify staying with him, even though I knew deep down. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

I did learn alot though after he left, re what I was entitled to financially etc and I see you are in Europe too. I am in the UK, so we probably share similar laws. I would be more than happy to talk to you regarding your rights and options if you want to PM me. I also have a great listening ear if ever you need it.

You will get through this, I promise, you just have to be strong enough to take a step back before you can take forward steps.

BD x

Lp0725, my WH and I have been married 31 years, been together going on 33. We had some very good first years of marriage then went downhill from there. It was a terrible journey but we are on our way back up. Recovery hasn't been a straight shot up though. We've had some pretty serious ups and downs, mostly his issues.

I've called him out on his behavior several times and nothing really has gotten past me. Today, if I feel he is looking at another women (this was one of his issues because of his heavy drinking low self esteem), I tell him. He just started up IC to figure out his own issues and how to help me feel safe and secure in our marriage again. He struggles when he see's me in pain also.

From what I read, it seems like other posters think that you are hesitant about leaving your WH. It really is up to you what you decide. Neither path R or D is easy and they both are a journey of ups and downs.

No matter what you decide to do, raise your bar high and let your WH know that your tolerance is very low in accepting any kind of abuse and if he wants to repair and live in a happy and healthy marriage, he also needs to do his part making this happen. This includes IC and then MC. It's a good thing with the right therapist.

I wish you the best.

BS Only

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:01 PM, June 8th (Saturday)]

Look, I get it. You feel like everybody always says "You deserve better, get out." Over even stuff that maybe you could forgive and work through. So it's hard to really take it to heart. And with the cheating and stuff, you feel like of course you deserve better, but they don't know you or him, so do they really know? Because he couldn't possibly be like the others, and have meant to hurt you so, and he may be the one that changes, and that generic response just doesn't seem to mean anything. Maybe you feel like people don't know the whole story, they're just saying what they are supposed to say.

But this is much further than that. I completely understand why it's so hard, as there is so much we don't know, and even though you clearly know what he did is never okay, you're so used to making exceptions. Well, I've got to be honest.

NOW is the time to stop making exceptions. It took a lot of support for me to even realize this cheating isn't something that just happens, it takes a fundamental lack of value and respect. He doesn't value you, and instead of realizing his mistake, when he could have lost you, but you kept him around and tried after the cheating, it made him feel like you were worth less because you put up with it. That is not your fault at all; you are clearly a person that wants to see the best in people, and that is a beautiful trait. But he turned that and made it ugly, and made it into something awful in his head.

He values you so little that he felt like not only was it okay to hurt you emotionally, that you deserve punishment physically. How far is he going to degrade and demean you?

He probably will change his tune; tell you he is sorry, and he cannot believe he did that, but part of him will feel like you know you deserved that if you stick around. How fucked up is that?

Because you fucking don't. You fucking don't deserve that shit. No one does, but you especially don't. The ONLY thing you did wrong was believe the best in someone that you loved that did NOT deserve it. That just makes you a rare and beautiful person.

Let's play out if you hadn't looked at his phone, which is more than fair, as everyone who has been betrayed wants to keep their heart more safe. He is a fucking liar about the whatsapp. That's what my SO used to keep me from the truth too. You have to seek it out and install it. So he would have just gotten worse and worse, until you finally had some red flags, and then this same thing would have happened.

Do not wait. He smacked you. He fucking smacked you. Please, please, do not let yourself end up in an unmarked grave somewhere. You may think to yourself he would never do that, but you never thought he would do this. All you did was partially catch him in a lie. What happens when you catch him in flagrante?

You could find someone that is torn up for you when he hears what you went through; someone that holds you so close to him every night because he wishes he could have protected you before he knew you. Someone that wants to eviscerate the person that did this, and can't believe anyone would hurt such a beautiful soul. You could have someone that wants to protect you and give you the world, and feels it is such an honor to love you like you always deserved.

Please, watch some Cold Justice. See how this plays out. Choose a happy life, with someone that never wants to let you go because all they want is to protect you. If he is willing to do this, things WILL escalate. At this point, there is just not ever going to be a reconciliation that works and doesn't put you in danger. Get a restraining order, and starting looking for your person. There is the perfect person for everyone, and you are clearly a loving, beautiful person.

How are you doing Dear Girl? Has he signed up for IC yet? Has he read the McDonald book? Is he still on your bed. Gee, I fear so much you are on the road to rug-sweeping.... are you?

So I had every intention of writing him this letter but I just couldn't drum up the motivation to do it. I felt something in me snapped. And I realized I just don't give a shit anymore. I don't care what he does at this point. I'm biding my time until I'm ok financially and then I'm separating from him. He's been back on the couch. We did have what I thought was a good conversation about what I need from him to stay together, but then a couple days later we had an argument and I just am so exhausted. I can't do this anymore. I'll get a cheap apartment if I have to. I just need to get away from all of it. I feel like a trapped animal. I have nowhere to go. I'm so fucking stupid to have let myself get in this situation where I'm financially dependant on someone else. I feel like a fool for ever believing in him. There must have been signs I missed along the way. It's been really hard not to completely hate myself for ruining my children's lives this way.

LP,

Self-blame is so common; wrong but common. And having to delay separation for financial reasons is also really common; super-painful and fraught with risk of giving up, but common.

If he has not DONE the things you told him you need to SEE him do, then no amount of talking is enough. I see the good advice you give others on SI, so just talk to yourself accordingly and get your ducks in a row. You will be OK.

LP,

I felt something in me snapped. And I realized I just don't give a shit anymore. I don't care what he does at this point. I'm biding my time until I'm ok financially and then I'm separating from him

^^^^

GOOD FOR YOU,

This was what I was referring to in my previous post, you give some great advice to others struggling but couldn't seem to find your own strength,

It won't be an easy journey for you as you know, however breaking this never ending cycle is your fresh start (with or without him).

You can do this Lp,

Stay strong

We're all pulling for you

((((hugs))))

Odonna & Scooby, thank you so much for your kind words... but right now I don't feel strong at all. I have been neglecting my health due to not having time to go to the doc, and as a result have been without my Prozac for about a month now. I'm having really horrible dark thoughts that everyone, including my kids, is better off without me. I just called my doc to try to get in ASAP because I'm at a breaking point, but of course the soonest they can get me in is a week from now. I don't have the guts to actually harm myself, but I feel like I just want to die. I feel I've ruined my own life and my kids lives, and that there's no hope. I wish I could just disappear. My father committed suicide when I was 14, and even though he was abusive, it destroyed me. I blamed myself for it. I feel that's the only reason I need to keep going... because I don't ever want my kids to feel the way I did. WH and I have had some bad fights the past few days and he said awful things to me that just made me want to die even more. I made the mistake of telling him this morning how I'm feeling, and he wasn't supportive at all. He even asked if I was making it up for attention, and said if I was serious then I need to go get help from the doctor because he's not a therapist and can't help me. We had been arguing earlier in the morning so he was still angry, and it was so stupid of me to call him while I was in the middle of breaking down. I'm at work now and I just can't function. I can't even leave because I've already had to miss so much work for all the kids doc appts and other stuff. I'm trapped in a life I hate. There's no one I can turn to, nowhere for me to go.

Call a crisis hotline STAT

National Suicide Prevention Hotline 1-800-273-8255

Then call a lawyer - WH is a flaming abusive ass

And if you just can't anymore - call 911

Hugs. Big hugs.

OK. Breathe.

Breathe in count to five, Breathe out count to 5.

Do it again....

And one more time.....

NOW, stop blaming yourself and take some action.

1. Call the dr back and explain that you are out of meds, and that you have an appt for next week can they call in enough to tie you over until your appt. Most Dr's willingly do this.

2. Call your HR dept. Find out if they have any type of Employee crisis fund/program. Most employers do (because they get a break on the cost of insurance) see if they can hook you up w/ a therapist to meet w/ ASAP.

3. Stop blaming yourself. The only thing you have done is love and attempted to trust a man who is not worthy of your gift. That said, you can definitely make your life and your kids lives great again.

4. Stop communicating with him period. This is why the 180 is so very important. The second you implement it, he can no longer hurt you.

5. Do one kind thing for YOU today. No matter how small, loving yourself refills your tank, and gives you strength.

(((And Strength)))

Hi Lp0725. I've been following your thread. Just wanted to say that I'm sorry to hear you are feeling this way. However, I do understand and know how you feel.

You haven't ruined your life or your kids lives. You are young and have time on your side. You can build a new and amazing life for yourself and your children.

I felt the same way, that I ruined my life with the choices I made that got me to this point (see my last post). But we did the best we could with what we knew at the time. Now we know better.

I must say that I think you are incredibly brave, strong and smart. You recognized his abuse and called it out within a short timeframe. I was abused for over 15 years before it hit me what was going on. You are helping others on SI with supportive and thoughtful advice.

You will be OK. Just take it one day at a time. I am finally just starting to feel like I have a future and it's been over 3 years since D-day.

Give yourself credit for standing up for yourself. You are going to be better than OK. Keep posting to let us know how you're doing.