SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I am asking this truly, not sarcastically. Why do men keep saying we want them to be feminine? I really don't understand that feedback. I am not trying to make a case, I just generally don't see that as what anyone is saying.

Because, HO, this...

This doesn't sound like a very compassionate way of interacting with a friend. Maybe you're drawing the wrong conclusions? Maybe it's not so much about the sex as it is the peer-pressure to conform to the group-think regarding it. If machismo is measured by "scoring", there's this poor guy, being exposed in front of his peer group as not filling the bill. His problem is treated as a joke,

...is a critique of this...

We went down to the basement (the guys) and had a few drinks, and someone asked him if he was "back in the saddle" yet. And his demeanor changed completely, you could see the pain and hurt in his eyes, which then turned into a joke..

...and what some men here are saying is that the cascading female critiques of how we communicate amongst ourselves presumes that feminine communication reigns, somehow, supreme.

I don't tell you girls "how" to talk to one another even though I find it incredibly boring given the peripheral stories shared to flesh out whatever context you are looking to provide for understanding. (You've heard "get to the fuckin' point!" yes?) At the ripe ole age of 59, I endure my wife's meandering musings because I fuckin' love her.

Contrarily, she'll ask what we fellas talked about on the golf course, and she'll invariably exclaim "Wait, you didn't ask about (fill in the blank), and you didn't talk about (fill in the blank), and I just don't understand how you guys can spend four hours together giving each other shit and not talk about anything "of value."

HO, we...are...different.

ETA: Fuck it, and I'll add this, and maybe you'll come up with examples where I'm wrong but, I rarely see a guy lambasting a female poster for how she "feels," but I've personally been told on here that I should "change" how I "feel."

And, lastly, RIO, in an earlier post talked about how this venue provides an opportunity for a man to express himself authentically in a way that he simply can't IRL. (Qualifier) Better make sure the mods don't take exception to it. Personal experience there. Bottom line, you want unfiltered understanding of the male psyche? Read here. Because you won't get it IRL; we pay a precious price if we do. You're getting a solid here until men are silenced by being relegated to virtual purgatory for speaking their mind here, too.

[This message edited by NotTheManIwas at 11:49 AM, May 9th (Thursday)]

I'm but a mid 30s fella who habitually fence sits on topics and has had lots of close female relationships on top of the many 20+ year long close male friendships, but I can clearly see some of these "feminized" prescriptions for how men feel or interact with each other. NTMIW expertly captures it with his use of quotes above.

This is why there are specific groups for men and women to "be themselves" apart from each other. It's a truism, but we do think and act different. Always will. And it's why a place like this is very special, because men and women both, all of us destroyed emotionally to some degree, can come here and share our sometimes differing wisdom. I too am always listening, even if I don't always agree. Ironically, the more we disagree, the more we learn from each other.

Ironically, the more we disagree, the more we learn from each other.

Thank you, young brother, this resonates.

Really? You have "rarely seen a man lambasting a female poster for how she feels"??

Read ANY porn thread started on these forums,by a woman, and you will read post after post, by men,telling women they are wrong to feel upset because their WH watches porn. Nevermind that the woman has said her husband is a porn addict,or chooses porn over her,that he turns her down because he prefers porn, or they have an agreement that their marriage is a no porn marriage. Post,after post,of men defending what they believe is a God given right to ALL men, and how the woman doesnt have any right, or reason, to be upset because the man watches porn.

[This message edited by HellFire at 12:21 PM, May 9th (Thursday)]

Alright, HellFire, can't say that I've read the "porn watching" posts because they don't apply to me. So I'll defer to your "expertise" on that one.

Basically, what you’ve created is an environment where the husband can’t win. Vent about his situation, with those he feels comfortable enough to do so, at the cost of betraying his wife’s privacy. But if he doesn’t to vent his feelings regarding the situation then he is perpetuating the toxic masculinity by not opening up. Pick one!

The critique of men:

Old: Men never express their feelings.

New: Men talk about their feelings with their wives - SHUT THE FUCK UP about it and get a therapist!

(Google: "slate men sharing feelings" See Slate article (and related in Harpers)

I honestly believe that sometimes we forget two ideas can be true at the same time. Which seems to be more frequent than not in these great gender debates. Often times men do tell how women to feel and vis versa. The fact that they both be true at the same time isn’t the problem, it’s usually that there’s usually acknowledgement of of one truth, by either side. So round and round we go...

Ironically, the more we disagree, the more we learn from each other.

Well said.

I'm convinced it never would have happened if I'd said more "pretty" comments, because she wouldn't have been so desperate to hear them from other people.

You're forgetting that 'words of affirmation' aren't really taken in by a broken person, especially when they come from a loved one.

It's too easy for a WS2b to say to him/herself, 'S/he doesn't mean it - s/he has to say something positive.'

100%

My ex said the exact same thing to me:

Me: Why did you sleep with him.

Her: Because he said I was pretty/sexy.

Me: I say that all the time.

Her: But he's not you; you have to say that.

Yeah, fucked up thinking, but there it is.

I'll tell you guys a somewhat funny, somewhat awful story. A buddy of mine and his wife had a kid a few years back. In mixed company, it was all lovey/dovey/so happy/etc. All the "right" things to say. We went down to the basement (the guys) and had a few drinks, and someone asked him if he was "back in the saddle" yet. And his demeanor changed completely, you could see the pain and hurt in his eyes, which then turned into a joke.. "No, wife still isn't into it.. I haven't been this long without sex since I was in high school; I'm about ready to f**k a cantaloupe". Now, after choking on my beer; I thought to myself, how does this compare/contrast with what was said upstairs? I have no doubt that what he said was real (hey, cantaloupes need love too!), but how does this jive with the "oh so happy, blessed, couldn't be more satisfied together" stuff that was being said an hour ago?

This could have been written about my ex and my relationship. I did have compassion for my ex, and I very much wanted to desire sex again, but I just... didn't. It wasn't a deliberate act of denying sex. I tried to rekindle the desire I had felt before our first child was born. I'd remind him of some of the things that turn me on (but he didn't act on my suggestions). I tried the fake it until you make it method, having sex even if I didn't feel like it, but I ended up watching the clock.

I tried to discuss it with my ex, because I recognized it as a problem to solve, but he wasn't interested in working with me to find a solution. He wasn't even willing to admit that there was a problem in our relationship. I finally made an appointment with a sex therapist, who wanted to work with both of us, but after that first appointment, I was put on bed rest for 4 months, delivered a baby, the cheating happened, so I never really got back to it. My interest in sex is higher than ever now with my new boyfriend who isn't a conflict-avoidant cheating ass.

I hope that my ex didn't discuss the intimate details of our life with his friends, especially when I already felt shame at being a failure as a woman and he refused to discuss it with me.

So, maybe my lost sex drive caused my ex to cheat. The message that men like sex and if it is not provided, they will cheat or leave is often given out on this site (and other places in society). There is probably some or a lot of truth to that. I have given it a lot of thought. It's interesting that my loss of sex drive seemed to co-incide with the beginning of his affair. It also coincided with our first child (his affair, at least the emotional side of it, started when I was pregnant - I'm not sure when it became a physical affair). I've wondered a lot about the chicken-egg issue. Did he cheat because he wasn't getting sex, or did my sex drive falter when I sensed that there was a growing distance between us.

I just want to show the other side of that exchange. I do have compassion for the guy. (I'm ambivalent about his discussing such a private matter with someone outside his marriage, but I don't know enough about the couple's relationship to judge - just that knowledge of such an exchange would have increased my sense of shame.) However, the wife also has a story that might be just as painful as his. Maybe they are working together to try to find a solution. Maybe she doesn't care about his desires and feelings. Maybe she's denying him sex and cheating on him. Maybe he doesn't want to acknowledge that it's a relationship problem, not just a wife problem that his wife just needs to fix in isolation.

NotthemanI was,

I would never suggest how men think and act and talk is or should be the same as women. It IS different.

I think the majority of this thread was tainted by being told that we have to keep men's balls empty and their stomachs full and then they will never cheat. But, that's not true.

Just like a great number of male posters feel like they did the choreplay, the providing, the sacrificing and their wives still cheated.

It's because it doesn't matter what you do or don't do, the cheating is about the cheater.

The women could be coming on and saying "Well she cheated on you because you are insensitive and took her for granted" just like they are being told "well if you fucked him and cooked for him then all would be well". Those two things are both wrong messages.

The TRUTH is each person who was cheated on was probably doing the best they knew how day to day. People can get distracted, people can need space at times, life is a long time to say "we'll be connected at the hip and we'll always be meeting each others needs". When we married we just never envisioned all the stages and evolutions that we would witness another person go through or go through ourselves.

So, we need to stop this proganda that women just aren't meeting mens sexual needs, and men are just not meeting women's emotional needs. How about we waywards need to be able to meet some of our own damn needs? It's shortsighted and keeps the BS in a role where they were somehow responsible for someone else's behavior.

It boils down to you both feel the same way. *GASP* even though your genders are different. You both feel like you did everything you were "supposed to do" and now you feel like a fool because it didn't change the results. As much as people want to make room for this difference in sexes there is a lot to be held up in common as well.

I just got back from lunch with H and we were talking about this thread a little bit. It's funny that you think we don't get men's unfiltered opinion on something unless we come to this board. I am married to a man and rest assure, he doesn't hold back what is on his mind out of politeness. I wash the man's underwear, I witness more than my fair share of his farting (and vice versa if we are honest), I fuck him and know his body from every angle, I know what to order him if he's late to a restaurant, I know what makes him happy, and what makes him sad. I know he thinks about sex more times a day than I can even fathom, that he looks at other women, that he does feel more attracted to me if I am at a healthy weight. I know he looks at weird porn, and thinks more about business than who's birthday is coming up or what we should have for dinner But, I also know that he loved me big and pregnant and desired me the same, during one of my pregnancies we had sex every day throughout and I was a huge bloated Macy's day float complete with acne - because he still loved the ME underneath. That is all any of us want - male or female - to be loved and valued for who we are and for our spouse to overlook our imperfections and see the good in us.

We all have a lot in common here, and I wish we would stop getting all trigger happy with any false move and it becomes an all out assault on someone's gender or what they value in a relationship is wrong or whatever.

Hear ye, hear ye!

Emergent8!

Thanks for the laugh.

HO, I got nothing, I agree. Well... except tell your husband to quit indiscriminately farting in front of you. It just ain't sexy.

ETA: and BTW I really appreciated "how" you put this...

that he does feel more attracted to me if I am at a healthy weight.

...me too. Not looking for perfection. Looking for "effort" on my behalf. I love my wife's curves, and I'm betting there are a whole lot of men in my camp.

[This message edited by NotTheManIwas at 1:22 PM, May 9th (Thursday)]

Great post HO and AbandonedGuy

NotthemanIwas - Victory! J/K

As for the farting, eh, whatever. "I overlook the imperfections and see the good in him" People fart. He's going to come on any minute and say I put him to shame, I predict that in 10, 9, 8....

NotthemanIwas - Victory! J/K

<Crap... Wench be doing the endzone dance>

that he does feel more attracted to me if I am at a healthy weight.

...me too. Not looking for perfection. Looking for "effort" on my behalf. I love my wife's curves, and I'm betting there are a whole lot of men in my camp.

Yes, and I know why that can be sensitive for some. I think it's even better if we put effort into it for ourselves. Being healthy is part of feeling good, if we feel good we can be more of our best selves. I do think that wanting to be our best self for us and in consideration of our mate is not a bad thing at all. H struggles with a little man belly some times, but it bothers him 100% more than it bothers me. I do worry now that we are older about his heart, he has a bad family history with that. The longer we can both be healthy, the longer we can go on hikes, go to all day concerts, enjoy vacations more, etc. Health does become a consideration in a relationship especially the further up in years you get.

There are definitely things I have learned from reading the male viewpoint threads on the importance of sex in a relationship. There are also things I've read that simply do not apply to my BH, or to me. No, I really do not want a "man who proves he's a man" through dominant behaviors. I have never been interested in the bad boy persona; give me the sexy intellectual nerd every time. He does not want a submissive wife or one who spends a lot of time on external polish at the gym, salon and boutique. He wants someone who can have a fiery and well-reasoned argument, served with a dessert course of enthusiastic sex. I don't want him to take Rogaine for me and he doesn't want me to starve myself for him -- though if either of us wanted to do that for ourselves, we would have each other's solid support.

There is nothing wrong with devoting a lot of time and money to your appearance if that is something that gives you a sense of pride. There's also nothing wrong with having other priorities, both for what attracts you and for what makes you feel attractive. It seems that it does cause problems if you misrepresent your priorities to a potential spouse or change the ground rules without discussion.

I am so sick of hearing what "everyone" wants, and even sicker of hearing that we're delusional or avoidant if we don't buy into those generalizations.

ETA: Sorry for the snippy tone. It's been a long week.

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 2:18 PM, May 9th (Thursday)]

I am so sick of hearing what "everyone" wants, and even sicker of hearing that we're delusional or avoidant if we don't buy into those generalizations.

Me, too, especially since none of it applies to me or my fch. We are proof that not every male or every female is the same.

There's nothing wrong with wanting a healthy and attractive partner. My guess is that we all want that. There's nothing wrong with wanting sex. Most of us want that, too. The problem comes when the assertion is that we are supposed to look or be a certain way for someone else. Part of love and M is accepting your partner for who s/he is at every stage of life, at least to me.

My ex-wife's body type fluctuated constantly throughout our time together and I was always attracted to whatever she was. In fact, my preference tended to mirror whatever she was at the moment, whether heavily bosomed or tight butted (TMI?). The only time I was repulsed was when she became anorexic. It got really bad. In the month leading up to DDay, she started that same trend and the last I saw her, she was back to sickly skinny. This was her looking "good" for the AP. Made me reevaluate whether or not she was cheating that last time, 10 years ago. I certainly thought she was at the time and we did fight about it and even separated. Should've listened to my gut then, but what the hell does a mid 20something know?

Anyway, I'm rambling, I personally loved and wanted to bed her all the same no matter where she was at on the body scale. And when she was a stick, I wanted her to get help.