SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Maybe it sounds nicer when I say that I wish for everyone here to be in a relationship where they are cherished and adored and their partner would rather put their own eye out than betray and hurt them. Some have found that in R and that is fantastic. Some have found that by going through D and that is also fantastic. The road to getting there in R is a long and painful one if done right. It is no small thing to offer R to someone who has hurt you so badly. It is a priceless gift. It is always given to someone who is unworthy of it at the time. It is a sacred thing not to be taken lightly. As hard as D is, I bet it's the easier path in the short run. If we're being rational about it, most of us fall into and out of love more than once in our lives. We know it can be done. So yes, I admit when I see "young with no kids" I first think OMG spare yourself, there are literally millions of people you can love and you deserve to be cherished! That will be the wrong answer in some cases and the right answer in other cases. I come from a place of being outraged that someone did this to (general) you. I absolutely do not come from a place of judgment for anyone who tries R. If anything, I am in awe of the strength it takes to do so.

^^^

Excellent post Dee.

Big ups to Dee, that sums it up. Especially

It is a priceless gift. It is always given to someone who is unworthy of it at the time.

That surprises me. Is divorce actually a big red flag in your age group?

In my world it is. It doesn't mean I don't stand a chance but most guys (and girls) will run from the situation, and I understand frankly. This doesn't stop me from getting a D at all, I'm just trying to say that it's not all so easy just because someone is young.

It is a priceless gift. It is always given to someone who is unworthy of it at the time.

Can't argue with that...

That experience is tattooed in his soul.

If there is a reason I tell people to file D first it is because you will see their wayward for who they really are, how they respond, how they view you and the relationship, what steps are they willing or not willing to take to deal with it. Fog or no fog, affair influence or not, people really show you who they are either standing at the edge or hanging from it.

My husband didn't get to experience divorce papers in front of him but I do think there were plenty of moments that got tattooed into his soul. One thing I decided early on was that I was not going to do anything to manipulate him into "waking up", not filing for divorce, not 180'ing, not kicking him out of the house. I would do those things if they felt right to me without a specific outcome in mind.

I was not going to do anything to manipulate him

For a 26 y.o. person, I feel you have a lot of wisdom, iris. Hope that didn't sound condescending.

But, I agree. If you have a remorseful WS who has said they would do whatever is needed to reconcile, I don't feel it is necessary. I feel that filing for divorce and handing them papers is a kind of manipulation, imo. Go meet with a lawyer, find out your rights, but I wouldn't want to file for divorce if I wasn't planning on following through. My FWH was a nervous wreck that I was filing for divorce. I didn't need to get the papers for him to realize that was a real possibility. Same for kicking them out of the house which, btw, isn't as easy as some make it sound. WS's do have some legal rights.

However, the 180 isn't to manipulate a WS into anything. It is for a BS that has an unremorseful WS. You use the 180 to detach yourself emotionally from the WS. You use it to get strong. You use it to be able to make the decisions and choices you need to make, but may not be able to right away, for whatever reasons.

edited: to fix comma

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 7:29 PM, June 7th (Friday)]

Iris, you won’t be able to read their story. It happened long ago.

If you click on DeeplyScared’s name in the banner on the home page, however it will take you to her cancer story. From there you can click on her profile and get a snippet of what they went through.

The type of advice here comes and goes in waves. It always depends on who you ask whether it is heavy on D or R. Do what is good for you.

Do what is good for you.

This imo is at the core of the issue WOES. "Do what is good for you". There is no way for Iris to know what "is good for you" until after, likely long after, "what"ever it is she decides to "Do".

And, likely, long after MAJOR LIFE DECISIONS like HAVING A CHILD have been made. Decisions that affect the life of someone who (general) she would literally die for - her child.

"Do what is good for you" is the same as saying "Do what you think will control the outcome" imo, and we all know from SI that there is no way to control the outcome.

Not advising Iris to D is the same as advising Iris to R imo. If she decides to R, she will probably be happy that she did. That's likely what she wants at this point.

Then, she will likely go along, happily in R, maybe have a child or children, and she, AND they, will go on to live happy lives.

But, if she goes along, happily in R, and then finds out that it was no R at all, and he was cheating some or all of the time, she will know that she married a serial cheater, someone who saw the devastation of their cheating, the figurative stabbing of her, AND them, in the back, and decided to continue stabbing them anyway, and that she needs to get divorced.

Why? Because there's no sense in trying to R a second time. Saying "I will not go through this with you again" and then following through, is the best thing any BS who decides to R will "Do" imo.

But of course there's no way they know whether they'd actually follow through with not doing this with them again, when they say it.

She will indeed eventually have to look at those children, however, and know that she will eventually have to tell them what their father did, and who he is, and have to deal with how THAT affects THEIR outcome.

Most 30 yo that want marriage and children will not want a divorced girl when they can get someone who will experience marriage for the first time with them.

This surprises me. I lived my 20s as a separated (didn't get an actual D for 10 years, but never saw my 1st H after I kicked him out), single mother. I still had plenty of interest from men, usually in their 30s. Although, I think I've read that millenials are less likely to get married young, so maybe that plays a role.

I got married the first time when I was 18 (that was over 30 years ago). I was young and naive and married for all the wrong reasons. These days, I'm surprised by people who get married in their 20s. It seems so young to me.

My oldest son got married when he was 23. I counseled him about getting married so young. I didn't think it was a good idea. But, he was in love. A couple of years later, his wife cheated on him, got pregnant by the OM, and left my son.

I'm glad you stated that fear of not finding someone else isn't keeping you from D. That's one thought I had.

And what is with this "broken arm" analogy, where people seem to think that a proven cheater is actually LESS likely to cheat than the average person, presumably because they've already cheated, said they were sorry, realized the error of their ways, and are now safer because of it? I don't agree with that at all.

Cheatstroke, you do not describe Reconciliation here. You describe rug-sweeping.

R requires the WS to change from betrayer to good partner. That means the WS needs to look inside, identify what enabled her to cheat, and stop the enabling.

One way to describe that is to say: the WS has to change her self-talk. My W's self-talk, for example, is full of terrible fear and terrible attack on herself. She works to recognize her self-talk and change it.

Other WSes talk of ego kibbles. They act as if - or even say explicitly - they have a hole inside, and they believe ego kibbles will fill that hole. IOW, they think external validation will allow them to feel whole. These folks have work to do to learn to validate themselves.

Yet another way of understanding the problem is 'co-dependence.' Co-d people appear to think that if only they can meet someone else's needs, they'll feel OK about themselves.

It's not the gift of R that makes it work, although that's a prerequisite.

What makes R work is that the WS changes in fundamental ways.

Give me a choice between a random person I meet and a former WS who

moved from mainly co-dependent to mainly authentic, or

from seeking external validation to validating himself or

from attack-self self-talk to nurture-self self talk, and

for future fidelity I'll put my faith in the former WS who changed every time.

*******

To Iris

Your plan to look for consistent R behavior for 3 months may work. I committed to R after 90 days of consistent work by my W.

But like n&d, I recommend lengthening that to 6 months. I wish I had done so, though I'm not sure what difference it would have made to us.

R works only if the WS changes for herself. Making changes to please the BS isn't a good long-term motivator, IMO. It opens the WS up to the risk of blaming the BS for his pain when R gets tough.

When the going gets tough, I want the WS to think, 'I hate doing this, but I choose to do it.' I don't want her to say, 'I'm only doing this to keep my BS from getting angry at me....'

Anyway, it's harder to fake it for 6 months than for 3, IMO.

My approach to committing to R was this: Before I committed, every time an issue arose (like every day), my first response was, 'Is this a deal breaker? ... No, so I'll work to resolve the issue.'

After committing, my first response was, 'How do we resolve this?'

IOW, I assume we can and will resolve all issues - but I always knew - and know even now - that if we hit an issue we can't resolve, D is always there for us.

BTW, Shirley glass defines a stage of 'working on the M' for couples in which at least one partner hasn't yet decided between D & R. IIRC, she said it sort of tested the possibility of R.

****

I imagine I'm old to most SIers. For the record, I spend immensely more time with good memories than with painful ones.

T/J - My head tells me I'm old. My body tells me I'm not young any more. Something very powerful inside me tells me I'm 22 with my life still ahead of me. I don't understand. - End T/J

[This message edited by sisoon at 10:06 AM, June 8th (Saturday)]

Cocoplus5nuts

This surprises me. I lived my 20s as a separated (didn't get an actual D for 10 years, but never saw my 1st H after I kicked him out), single mother. I still had plenty of interest from men, usually in their 30s.

I should say I'm not in the US so my surroundings may be a little different. However the fact that most people don't get married so young definitely plays a role, as the vast majority of single 30yo have never married and will not be overly enthusiastic about dating a divorced girl. I'm not saying it's impossible to find a guy (in fact one of our guy friends is living with a girl our age who got a divorce after her H cheated and became an asshole, and they seem happy and a good match). I'm just saying being a divorced 20 something isn't necessarily easier than at 40 something.

I don't regret having gotten married at my age. It was the right decision for me and I think for my H too. He just went completely crazy for a few months and forgot all about everything (and I mean everything) that ever mattered to him.

Sistermilkshake

However, the 180 isn't to manipulate a WS into anything

.

I'm aware of that, though sometimes it is recommended to BS in a way that sounds like it's for manipulating the WS.

I can tell you that in my case, a hard 180 wouldn't make sense because if I truly felt like I needed to detach so hard, I would just send him home to his parents.

Sisoon

Your plan to look for consistent R behavior for 3 months may work. I committed to R after 90 days of consistent work by my W.

But like n&d, I recommend lengthening that to 6 months.

I may do that. I set a 3 month "evaluation period" after Dday2 and it worked for me because it was long enough to gain some perspective and process feelings to see if we even had any chance. So at the end of that 3-month period I decided to give it another 3 months. I'll see how I feel about things then. I may decide to prolong it to 6 months as you say.

[This message edited by iris2536 at 12:31 PM, June 8th (Saturday)]

I'm aware of that, though sometimes it is recommended to BS in a way that sounds like it's for manipulating the WS.

Yes, I agree. And sometimes a BS will do the 180 to try to manipulate the WS even if it was recommended to do as a detachment tool.

I think you are on the right path for yourself, iris.

As far as an answer to your main topic question, I really feel it is oftentimes projection from the BS's. But, of course, I wouldn't know the real motivations or underlying thought processes of anyone who recommends to D if you are childless.

Iris, in my own situation, a lot of people were telling me to run, and a lot of people were encouraging me with my decision to stay. I've been here a long time, I volunteered for the site for a few years, and I can honestly say that the main intention of the site is to heal from infidelity based on what is healthiest for every individual involved.

I know couples who have reconciled and recovered, with or without kids. Couples that weren't married, couples without kids, etc. One of my best friends in life is a person I met on this site who came here because of his parents' infidelity. Every situation is unique.

It's all about healing, and in the meantime you are going to hear all sorts of opinions all over the spectrum, and you will take what you need from them and heal from there. Some opinions hurt, and sometimes the more hurtful opinions are the ones we need to examine more closely.

My advice has always been this, there are three parts that go into your decision making process, your heart, your mind, and your gut. In the case of infidelity, often the heart overwhelms our choices, so sometimes it is better to flip the order upside down and make our decisions based upon our gut, then our mind, then our heart. Shortly after discovery day, our heart is pretty shredded, and our mind can be kind of a mess. The gut is usually pretty solid.

From my perspective, it doesn't matter what the details of your relationship are. The pain is the same, regardless of whether you have kids or not. You're still going to have to make some tough decisions. In my case, I have one child, a son, whom I found out was not biologically mine because of my wife's affair. I chose to stay. I feel that we greatly healed and reconciled from infidelity. We are now going through a divorce, and that has largely to do with other issues, but we are getting along great these days, and that's what is best for us and our son.

I haven't read all of your story, or all of the responses. I just wanted to make sure you felt comfortable here, and with your choices. This place has helped me a lot, and I hope it helps you too.

The question is why you recommend D to a childless BS. Is it because you basically assume that it's going to happen again eventually? That no cheater is redeemable so better to cut your losses now?

I think it's incredibly dismissive of someone's feelings and relationship when a childless BS is advised to cut their losses and D.

However, I think hindsight is 20/20, and the majority of advice is coming from older people who have seen how much more complicated and difficult things become once children are involved.

If you decide you want to R, and your WH is remorseful, by all means, good luck!

But, while I generally don't advise anyone (childless or not) to go straight to divorcing, I do think I would be very, very wary of having children with a known cheater.

Having children makes your relationship so much harder. All the time/energy/attention for your WH is now divided. It just is. And at the end of the day, you're exhausted and want to have a partner you can count on 100% to have your back, not someone who's going to sneak off to the bathroom to send "I love yous" to their AP on a burner phone while you're trying to nurse a screaming infant, you know?

I also think that infidelity is very similar to addiction. Wouldn't you be wary of having a child with a cokehead or someone that was shooting up heroin? Yes, they can absolutely do the work and try to become a safe partner, but in the back of your head you know that 1. relapse is always a possibility, 2. their default way of coping with things isn't healthy, and 3. they need to work on being a healthy person with good boundaries EVERY SINGLE DAY for the rest of your relationship. Just like an addict can have a legitimate medical procedure after 10-years of sobriety, be prescribed painkillers, and relapse, a WS can just as easily spend 10-years being faithful until the COW in the cubicle next to them flirts and next thing they know they're lying to themselves and deleting texts to "protect you" from getting upset over nothing.

Anyway, if you want to R with your WH, then you should. But if you decide you want to have children with them, then you should always have a plan B in place so that you're not dependent on them. Keep in mind that it's not impossible, but becoming a stay-at-home mother makes this much, much, much harder to do. Keep your job, make sure you have your own bank account, and make sure that your WH is contributing 50/50 to childcare, so that it doesn't all fall on you and you're left in a lurch should he ever cheat again.

Iris, there are so many tiny issues, snippets of struggle that are hard to convey. I would never question someone's choice to their face. Lol. Everyone gets to do what they want. But irl, I watched several friends stay with total jerks. Now that these couples are older, my friends say, "I'm happy now! See!" But dang, they had many sad, drama-filled years, and some of them have really dysfunctional adult kids replicating their mistakes and such. But that is not necessarily you or your situation. Just pointing out that people are never going to agree on:

~definition of a good marriage

~what it means to be remorseful

~what is "worth it"

And people do not and cannot see themselves or their situation honestly. It's very uncommon to really see yourself and your situation as it is instead of as you want to see it. I have learned that the only honesty I trust is when people are sharing what they are getting wrong in life. If I agree with their assessment as an objective observer, I realize, "This person sees clearly. They get it." But most times people are all, "He did this. She did that." Or even worse, "No, he didn't do this. It's not like that. We're good." As an objective party, half the time I will look at a mutual friend like, "Huh?! Did she just say they are fine? That he's fixed?" We stand their with our mouths hanging open, remembering the tears of one week prior or the divorce talk of one month prior.

So, knowing all that, my warning to leave is not based on thinking your M can't work out. It is based on the fact that most reconciliations fall far, far short of what I would call happy, as a third party. It's one or all of these reasons:

1. The WS did not stick with IC and do the intense years of soul searching needed.

2. The BS did not stick with IC and do the intense healing needed.

3. They did a lot of rugsweeping.

4. They did a little rugsweeping.

5. The BS starts slipping back into CoD and letting the WS slide on selfishness.

6. The WS keeps trying to slide back into old patterns of selishness.

7. They don't see their beautiful new marriage as a constant masterpiece-in-the-making and stop focusing.

8. FOO doesn't get fixed in one or both partners.

9. The marriage never finds its new, equal partnership.

10. They lose focus.

Many couples survive infidelity intact, but never achieve what that super happy status. It's a ton of work, requires constant change, and needs both partners forming a new dance with new dance steps. The old marriage must die. Most don't sustain the new dance moves because the dysfunctional patterns are comfortable, but that is what it takes: building a new, sustained M. Can you do that? I hope so. With a new partner, you don't need to fight against old patterns. You just get to start over, wiser and clearer. Can you pick wrong, get it wrong anyway? Yes. Can they mess up 10 years down the line even if you pick well? Of course. No answers here. Just explaining that true reconciliation with blissfully happy partners is a sh@tload of work that lasts years (even forever). Most do not put in that kind of work. I wish you nothing but happiness whatever you do.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 1:56 PM, June 8th (Saturday)]

I recommend reading the book "The Science of Happily Ever After" which discusses various studies that have been done on relationships. I believe someone above mentioned "Attached" and that one was also good. Only about 30% of long-term relationships can be considered relatively healthy and happy. Someone on SI recommended this book when I was single and dating, and I remember thinking had it been around and I had read it years ago (and actually listened to what was in it) I never would have married WXH, and I would have saved myself so much pain.

Part of what was in that book was so resonant that I wrote it out and referred to it while I was dating:

People don't really change, but they can become more aware of how they typically respond to situations and can push themselves to alter their natural responses.

When choosing a romantic partner, what you see is what you get. Forever. Why would you go into a marriage relying only upon a partner's willingness to manage their negative traits, rather than choose someone from the start who gives your relationship the best chance of success?

Most of the childless BSs that I know that divorced have created amazing new lives after D. Most have met new partners that treat us better than our WXS ever did. I can't even put into words how much better my life is now, and that was true even when I was single after D but before meeting SO. Many of our WSs have qualities that make them bad partners; a character and personality that allowed them to cheat in the first place. Even if my WXH had never cheated, I look back now and realize how unhappy I was at the time, because I married someone who wasn't a good match for me.

But it's your life, and you need to make the decisions that are best for you. If you do read the book I recommend above, you may realize that you and your WH are a good match and he has qualities that make giving him a 3rd chance (you have 2 D-Days, right?) a good bet. The advice almost everyone gives here is what that person believes is in the poster's best interest. I don't recall ever seeing intentionally bad advice. But as we always say here, take what you need and leave the rest. We all want to help people get through this shitstorm and find happiness. Good luck as you work through everything. There is nothing easy about this process, but you can definitely survive and thrive!!!

[This message edited by phmh at 3:06 PM, June 8th (Saturday)]

Only about 30% of long-term relationships can be considered relatively healthy and happy.

Interesting stat. So, even if you divorce your WS and find a better match, the chance of having a long term happy and healthy relationship is 30%? How fucking depressing is that!

What makes R work is that the WS changes in fundamental ways.

Give me a choice between a random person I meet and a former WS who

moved from mainly co-dependent to mainly authentic, or

from seeking external validation to validating himself or

from attack-self self-talk to nurture-self self talk, and

for future fidelity I'll put my faith in the former WS who changed every time.

sisoon

I guess I can agree with that Sisoon. My main concern is how would you verify that the WS is actually being mainly authentic, actually validating themself, and actually using nurture-self talk.

If nothing else, WS' are experts at two things - acting and lying.

WS' can look their spouse in the eye and show no noticable changes in appearance, expression, or attitude, even though they literally just had full-on affair sex with AP.

If a WS is capable of that level of acting and lying, then being mainly authentic, validating themself, and using nurture-self talk would likely be pretty easy things for them to fake.

So how would you really ever know whether the WS has changed in fundamental ways, or is just performing another act in their little screenplay of lies?

I should say I'm not in the US so my surroundings may be a little different.

Yes, that probably makes a difference. Sorry for the assumption. We Americans are so arrogant!

I agree with sisoon that a WP who has done the work needed is probably safer than a new partner who hasn't experienced infidelity. The problem is that we can never really know if the WP did the real work.

I agree with ibonnie that, if you do stay with a cheater and plan to have children with him in the future, you need to always have an escape plan and resources. I felt stuck immediately after dday because I was a SAHM and a homeschooler with 3 young children.