SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I see that your advice changes with nuance. Not everyone's does. And if it does change with nuance, then isn't making general statements a bit misleading?

No.

Because there is no such thing as a hard and fast rule. Especially when dealing with people - we are not machines, but sentient beings with emotions.

Should you drive slower in snow? Yes. But not when you are in danger of getting stuck - then you gun it.

Hence the saying, "It's the exception which proves the rule."

Some psychology:

We all make everyday decisions based on probabilities. We judge what actions we are going to take that will have a good, or bad, outcome. We do this unconsciously.

But those probabilities vary for every situation, and more importantly, what qualifies as a "good bet" varies even more greatly from person to person.

Is "it a good bet" if the probability is 50.00001%? For the gambler, the person who takes lots of risks, maybe it's acceptable odds. For the person who is risk averse, definitely not; even an 80% chance of success may not be acceptable to them.

So, when we say, "No kids? Divorce," we are basing the probability of you ending up happy on the GENERAL experiences - a PA, reasonable duration, a WS who doesn't immediately own their shit. Why? Because that's what MOST (not all) affairs look like. With those criteria, our collective wisdom puts success at less than 50%.

But...no sex, WS's immediate acceptance of poor behavior and making changes? Well, that pushes the probability above 50%, IMO.

How much above 50%? No idea.

And that's the hard part of this - when first faced with infidelity, people want to know what the "formula" is to fix their marriage and get back to what was. Unfortunately, there are no formulas, and no way to put Humpty Dumpty back together again.

The best you can do is take the GENERAL advice, apply it to your situation (as best as you can), see what the reaction of your WS is (and your's as well), and repeat until you are out of infidelity - one way or the other (R or D).

I don't doubt that some posters would indeed have divorced if they didn't have children at the time of the affair. I don't doubt that having children increases the amount of bullshit you're willing to tolerate from a spouse simply because there is more weight on the "staying married" side of the scale. I know for sure I wouldn't stay with a SA, or after a LTA, or if there was an OC, but some people have, perhaps because of the complications of divorce in their specific situations.

I agree with Svon that some people may be clinging to the kids as justification for wanting to stay. Not all, but some. I get that divorce is disruptive of children's lives, I get wanting to keep the family together, I do. But can you honestly tell me that it's better to R with a cheater with kids as opposed to R'ing when you don't have kids? The way I see it, if the cheater with kids cheats again, that makes 2 times your kids will have to go through some form of devastation before you ultimately divorce. Not to mention that R'ing with small children must be infinitely more complicated because... well you know why, and I respect your strength for doing it. Plus carrying that resentment "you only stayed because you didn't have much of a choice" and "I could do better than this but I'm trapped" probably doesn't make things easier.

When you advise childless newcomers to D, did you first try to walk in their shoes? What are you assuming will happen when you D without kids? Because from where I sit, any choice I make is riddled with uncertainty about the future. Ok, so I'm young, modestly attractive, reasonably well-off and don't have as much baggage as someone with kids. So I D and stay single a couple of years to heal and do my own thing, and then I'm 29. How many mature 30ish yo bachelors do you think are up for a serious relationship with a divorced woman? How many do you think will understand my background? How many do you think will have those evolved coping skills that my H's lack thereof merits kicking him out? How much heartbreak and/or frustration am I likely to endure in the dating scene under my circumstances? Not saying this path is horrible, just that both paths have downsides so I wonder what makes it so obvious to you that I should absolutely D.

This site would not exist if it weren’t for a couple reconciling without children. Maybe they were unicorns, but the both of them were willing to put the work in because they had love and desire to do so.

WalkinOnEggshelz I didn't know that. Where could I read their story?

The real question is what do you want? Does what you want align with his actions?

I'm leaning towards R but will take a little while longer to commit. I'm about 4 months out from DDay2, but only a little over a month since consistent remorseful behavior. I got transparency and accountability immediately, but the occasional anger/frustration and defensiveness and overall not 100% dedication for the first couple of months (aka regret, some pity parties, etc). I'd like to get to 3 months of consistent behavior before making that decision. TBH I'm kind of in R already but I haven't emotionally jumped back in. Plus I want to clearly define my deal-breakers moving forward so I don't end up feeling so lost and confused if something happens again (like what happens if there is/has been a breach of NC).

There are statistics, and there are individual experiences.

One thing I would caution you about in your individual experience is that your WH is already wandering in early days, pre-kids, at a time in the M which may well be the easiest and happiest that you will ever have. If you have kids, you gain weight from the kids and don't look as good any more, kids are yelling, is he going to start fondly remembering the ways he can escape? Keep that in mind.

My marriage failed because of the individual deficiencies of my WW. However good she may have looked on paper, because of who she was as an individual, our M had no chance. But when you look at someone as an individual with your head, not your heart. This is important if you want your R to have the best chance.

BS who R because they love their WS, that is fine, but that love does not mean diddly to the WS. The WS is going to do what they do based on their personality and how they react to the A. BS who can take a step back and objectively look at what their BS is likely to do probably make the best choices.

Ok, so I'm young, modestly attractive, reasonably well-off and don't have as much baggage as someone with kids. So I D and stay single a couple of years to heal and do my own thing, and then I'm 29. How many mature 30ish yo bachelors do you think are up for a serious relationship with a divorced woman? How many do you think will understand my background? How many do you think will have those evolved coping skills that my H's lack thereof merits kicking him out? How much heartbreak and/or frustration am I likely to endure in the dating scene under my circumstances?

That doesn't get any easier 10 or 20 or 30 years from now. If anything, it gets harder. Way harder if you're in the dating pool with a couple of kids. Not so easy when you're suddenly starting over from scratch in your 40s. I should be totally settled and have it going on. I did, 2 years ago. Instead, I'm a financially-strapped single mom whose retirement is gone living in a home smaller than the first one I purchased in my 20s. I have it going on way easier than a lot of other people in my position too, so I'm not complaining. Thing is, it is actually easier at your age to do all this starting over than it will be later on.

Not saying you should divorce, just saying don't let that be the main reason you don't.

How many do you think will have those evolved coping skills that my H's lack thereof merits kicking him out?

WS's get kicked out because of unevolved coping skills? No. They get kicked out because they did the worst thing that anyone could possibly do to someone without killing them. Someone that they also claim to love.

A spouse that could do this to someone they claim to love deserves to be kicked in a lot of ways. "In the balls" would be at the top of the list but "out" is a close second.

Look, you're young, you've got your entire life ahead of you. Hopefully someday you will be old, maybe even really old. I would bet most people who reach old age look back on their lives and think about the good things that happened in their lives. Most probably also think about the bad things because everyone has bad things happen. One of those bad things will be the WORST thing.

Short of losing a child or being in constant pain, THIS will be the worst thing that happened in your life. And your WS is the person that is responsible for it happening.

Do you really want to look back on your life and say "Getting cheated on is the worst thing that anyone ever did to me. WS is the one that did it. I actually stayed and had children with WS, the person who did the worst thing anyone ever did to me. WTF?"

You're young. Someone has ALREADY done the worst thing that anyone will ever do to you. You deserve to be with someone who isn't that someone.

Cheatstroke, yeah. That was moving. Puts a lot of things in perspective wherever you are on the path.

This thread has a constant conflation of "general" advice and why it is given and one person's specific situation.

I would really recommend you start a thread (in JFO or General) and confine that to your situation. This way we can talk about what YOU want and need.

And leave this thread to focus on why the general advice is to leave.

When you advise childless newcomers to D, did you first try to walk in their shoes? What are you assuming will happen when you D without kids? Because from where I sit, any choice I make is riddled with uncertainty about the future. Ok, so I'm young, modestly attractive, reasonably well-off and don't have as much baggage as someone with kids. So I D and stay single a couple of years to heal and do my own thing, and then I'm 29. How many mature 30ish yo bachelors do you think are up for a serious relationship with a divorced woman? How many do you think will understand my background? How many do you think will have those evolved coping skills that my H's lack thereof merits kicking him out? How much heartbreak and/or frustration am I likely to endure in the dating scene under my circumstances? Not saying this path is horrible, just that both paths have downsides so I wonder what makes it so obvious to you that I should absolutely D.

It's much more than just "baggage as someone with kids." It's the tens of thousands in lawyers fees you have to pay to sort out the house and kids (and other assets you accumulate - retirement, houses, cars, etc.). It's the trauma of watching your kids suffer - because they will and do in a divorce. It's trying to find eligible singles when you are older (the simple fact is there are more singles in their 20s/early 30s than in their mid-40s/mid-50s).

Just like trying to explain to someone without kids how different life becomes with them, you really don't (can't?) understand it until you live it.

So that is why those of us with kids (and all the other baggage of building a family over 15-20 years) tell those of you without kids, that, "Yes. It is most definitely easier to divorce without kids."

iris2536, I had no idea that my ExWW and former best friend were having an affair and that the infant son was not mine but his.

why people think that kicking a remorseful WS to the curb is always the best path if you don't have children

We were young with no heavy worries or responsibilities. Everything seemed great to me. The worries and responsibilities compound exponentially when a child or children enter your lives. If a spouse can cheat while you really have no worries and responsibilities what do you believe will happen when these are added to your lives? Please read and see how many WWs and WHs list that they wanted to lose themselves, be carefree and escape their responsibilities if only for a while as a reason they cheated. Sure, some WSs can reform and never cheat again but see how many cheated once children were part of the family. If you are thinking of one day having children just know that it will be a lot easier with someone who you trust fully.

I rarely post these days. I fall into this box, and we don’t fit very well here. I absolutely understand the advice. It took me a long while to accept it comes from a place of concern. But - it does land incredibly poorly.

My R is going quite well. It’s an incredibly hard journey. I see why, when people see an escape route, they point at it. But I also believe people in successful R are happy they made their choice, and so there is some irony in some of the advice.

I encourage people to read Svon’s post.

This is a site to provide encouragement, hope, advice, and experience. It should be welcoming for everyone. We all make our own choices. There isn’t one way through it, but there are reasons to pay attention to the collective wisdom.

Good luck to you, OP :)

@ cheatstroke

Someone has ALREADY done the worst thing that anyone will ever do to you. You deserve to be with someone who isn't that someone.

And, where is the guarantee that the next someone isn't going to do the "worst" thing to iris2536? (personally, the worst thing is subjective to each individual)

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 2:48 PM, June 7th (Friday)]

There are no guarantees. What she knows is that this particular person already betrayed her. He's not a "what if" cheater, he's a known cheater. That doesn't mean he'll do it again, though it is worrisome that he did it during the least stressful times in a marriage. That doesn't mean that she shouldn't R with him, but it does mean that if she does R with him, she's doing him a HUGE favor. Probably a bigger gift than he could ever comprehend in two lifetimes.

Of course there isn't, Dee, and that is my point. iris2536 has no guarantee either way. Trying to persuade her to divorce because this someone has already done the "worst" thing to her is a moot point, imo.

Again, the question is not why divorce is harder with kids. I have no doubt about that. Hell, anything is harder with kids, R or D or anything in between.

The question is why you recommend D to a childless BS. Is it because you basically assume that it's going to happen again eventually? That no cheater is redeemable so better to cut your losses now?

I'm glad that I chose R (with kids) and I could see us choosing R even if this had happened before we had kids.

R is hard, so in the darkest hours, the thought of your kids can keep you going when you feel like giving up. But there's staying for the kids and there's reconciling your marriage to be stronger and more intimate than ever. If you're doing the latter, then whether you have kids shouldn't affect the outcome.

In fact, the childless BS has the advantage of knowing the WS is staying for them, and not because of the kids.

iris2536

Is it because you basically assume that it's going to happen again eventually? That no cheater is redeemable so better to cut your losses now?

I don't adhere to either of these statements.

I am not one to advise anyone to divorce or reconcile. The only time I suggest a divorce is if a BS/WS are in an abusive situation, has a remorseless WS, and/or the WS is still having an affair.

I try to help my fellow members reach the goal they want. I do see many telling the childless and GF/BF sitch's to RUN and I find it rather dismissive of the poster's feelings.

Iris.

I'd like to get to 3 months of consistent behavior before making that decision. TBH I'm kind of in R already but I haven't emotionally jumped back in. Plus I want to clearly define my deal-breakers moving forward so I don't end up feeling so lost and confused if something happens again (like what happens if there is/has been a breach of NC).

I couldn't give you any better advice to you than this right now. I might change 3 months to 6, but you sound like you are looking at the situation very realistically.

The question is why you recommend D to a childless BS. Is it because you basically assume that it's going to happen again eventually? That no cheater is redeemable so better to cut your losses now?

Actually I think my husband is a lot less likely to cheat now that he's worked so hard to become a more mature, empathetic, responsible person. Maybe if the right opportunity hadn't come along he would have never cheated in the first place, but he had poor boundaries, crappy coping skills, little self-awareness, low empathy, etc. He's worked on all of that.

I would speculate that it is because R is incredible difficult because it requires actions--both from the BS and WS--that are in your control and those that aren't. Staying together for the kids is not R; it is coexisting in a relationship that you are legally bound to. R means your WS doing the work (out of control) and you doing your work (in your control).

Your work is to trust him eventually so that you actually have a relationship that brings you joy and satisfaction. Understandably so, this is a VERY VERY VERY tall order for a lot of BSs and an impossible feat if you do not have a remorseful WS. You cannot will a relationship. Without these ingredients coming together in such a way (that is only partially in your control), you'll remain together in what is more like a marital prison, bound to each other for reasons other than what makes a relationship enjoyable.

Life is a series of risks, the difference is the odds of a clean slate get worse as you age. However, you may not find another relationship like you know you could have. It could become more fulfilling one day or it could just become that marital prison.

I do not advise people either way. The important thing is to make an informed decision after much thought and observation of your WS's desire to begin doing what he needs to do to make this relationship work. Either way, as long as you make an informed decision and own your decision as one you made believing to be the best for YOU with all the facts and circumstances available at the time, then you will be fine.

Best of luck to you.