SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

What I am interested in is finding out why people think that kicking a remorseful WS to the curb is always the best path if you don't have children.

See there's the trick. When you are new to this as a BS, Remorse and Regret look an awful lot alike, and thinking you are seeing true remorse may just bite you on the ass.

Real remorse means doing anything and everything possible to own their choices, and fix what is broken in themselves, while simultaneously supporting you in any and every way possible to help you heal and find your footing again. It's not apologies, it's not saying you will anything and everything, but actually doing everything and anything to own it and heal.

Regret looks like anger when you ask questions, frustration when you are still dealing with the raw pain at 4 week, 6 week, 4 months, and years after.

Regret is very different and feels almost the opposite of true remorse, unfortunately until you have true remorse it's tough to know the difference.

You are right... you will never blindly trust again. It's actually a gift as you grow and heal, because you will learn that loving and trusting yourself is the most important thing in the world. When you can do that, you can spot bullshit a mile away and you can then choose to tolerate it or not. It made me a much better mom to my teen children.

Ok... I got plenty of answers and haven't got the time to respond to each individually right now, so I will try to cover a few aspects you covered.

I kind of get the feeling that the discussion about divorcing if you don't have children is at least somewhat tied to the belief that "once a cheater, always a cheater, or like 99% chance of further cheating". I tend to think in shades of grey rather than black/white, so I have some trouble with that belief.

I genuinely don't think that me staying has anything to do with fear of being alone. This may sound strange but I don't really feel like I need this (or any other) relationship at the moment. I can see myself following a different path and finding happiness in other things. I also don't identify as codependent. But I do love the guy, love our relationship and think we (generally) bring out the good in each other. I also now believe he is truly remorseful (and yes I have read about remorse vs regret and felt the difference, it's night and day), and that he is a good man who wasn't really in touch with himself and made a bunch of awful choices that really hurt him.

I didn't add any details about my situation because I thought I wanted more general answers. But yeah I should update my profile if I want some support. Long story short: my husband had an EA for about 4 months, where 2 of those they were sexting (pretty softcore, no pictures, nothing super graphic). DDay1 I discovered they were texting every minute, slightly flirty and to me it was clear where it was going, but he insisted they were "just friends" but agreed to stop it, then took it underground. DDay2 he confessed to sexting and gave me access to everything, including things I would probably never find out. Voluntarily sent an NC text, quit his job (OW was a coworker) and became transparent. I would say he had some remorse but mostly regret at first. Now I'd say he's remorseful and committed. I haven't completely decided on R yet because I wanted to see a few months of consistenly remorseful behavior before commiting.

Iris, we are just internet readers. We have a lot of experience but don't have a chrystal ball. Is he in IC? There are some hopeful signs in his behavior, and I would never call you (or anyone) a fool for giving this R another chance. You need to decide this for yourself, and there is no rush.

I will add that my irl experiences were with cheaters much more brazen and immature than yours, so my examples are not good comparisons. Best wishes!

On the sliding scale of infidelity, your situation is pretty mild. I wouldn't advocate divorce based on that - it was only an EA, and he actively took steps that are good (quit the job, NC).

If it were different - a 3 year long PA in a 5 year marriage and he refused to end contact and remain "friends?" Well, you can see the difference.

These types of threads "Why do you give this advice? Make this statement?" almost always devolve into multipage arguments because people are trying to put generalized knowledge/beliefs and apply it to a specific situation, without actually spelling out that situation (or they have a vision of the situation (that of course differs from person to person) that may/may not be reality).

It's like asking a doctor if they give antibiotics to a "sick" person. Yes. Unless it's not a bacterial infection, but cancer.

So, yes, the short general answer is, No kids - seriously consider divorce. But everything has nuance.

Iris, my husband divorced me after I cheated. We had been married two years and had no kids.

He regretted being so hasty in moving right to divorce. Two years later he asked if I’d consider getting back together. We’ve been remarried for almost 5 years and have two children now.

That said, *I* regret being so hasty in getting back together. I did so primarily because I felt guilty and that I owed it to him for having cheated. Bad, bad reasons.

Our marriage is decent but we are not “happily married.” We have a lot of issues that we rugsweep and ignore for the sake of raising our kids.

I think you taking the time to wait and see is a good idea. No need to rush either R *or* D.

All advice - including this - contains a large portion of projection. Even if I were to say, 'Based on this peer-reviewed research by that very reliable researcher, I strongly recommend this,' that's based on my values and my knowledge. We all have our prejudices; alas, usually we're not even aware of those taht are our own.

When I was new, I used to rely on newer people for insight for help analyzing how I was feeling and what I was thinking. I read older hands to gain some insight into how things might be in the future.

*****

Your dog bites you. Hard. Draws blood. Full blown viciously attacks you. You continue giving it treats. You continue petting it. You don't know if it will ever bite you again, but it already showed you that it's bloodthirsty and has little regard for your well-being. Now, do you keep the dog, or get a new dog who is a blank slate, one who has yet to prove that it will viciously attack you?

Continuing to give treats is just plain not R.

R requires the WS holding herself to account and changing from betrayer to good partner. That's very difficult work. It's not a 'treat' of any sort.

And I believe a former WS who has done the necessary work is less likely to cheat in the future than other people.

So, Iris, IMO, the best you can do is:

1) figure out what you want - but be sure you can see yourself leading a good life either with or without your SO;

2) if you want R, figure out if your SO is a good candidate for R;

3) if you think he is a good candidate, start R;

4) monitor your WS's behavior, and be ready to kick him out if he doesn't step up;

5) monitor yourself, and be ready to leave if you find you really don't want to stay with him.

*****

I haven't forgotten my W's A. It's certainly one of my top 3 worst memories, but maybe not the worst. When you're as far out as I am, being betrayed may assume less importance than it does when it's fresh.

[This message edited by sisoon at 8:52 PM, June 6th (Thursday)]

IrisI don't know what your story is but see your age and understand your question.

The answer is yes, those who say to leave while still young and still without children, think there is a better chance of happiness by not staying with someone who has cheated. Again, I do not know your situation, but in most cases, the cheating has involved deceit; it has involved a double life. It is abuse; it involves disrespect and disrespect and abuse are not ingredients for happiness.

People who say to leave do not necessarily think think that leaving is always the best decision but when the betrayed person is young, there's the good possibility that there may be more cheating in the future.

I personally do not give such advice; I would advise to work with a good counselor to explore other life choices; I would advise working with a counselor to explore why staying seems wise.

You also mention remorse. A person can have remorse--be truly sorry they betrayed; be truly trying his or her best to understand what they did and to change to someone fully trustworthy in the future. But that doesn't mean they will succeed. Unless we define "remorse" as a feeling, as a state of being so strong that the cheater will never cheat again, then being remorseful while making for a easier partner to live with and "forgive" doesn't guarantee any future behavior.

Which brings us to the next fact--there is no guarantee. In fact, there is no guarantee that the next relationship will be better. There just are no guarantees in life.

So forget those who say RUN--instead follow Sisoon's advice. Be vigilant. Think about yourself-your needs, your wants. Think about what makes you happy and go that way. And that kind of looking may last a lifetime.

I get that there is now an element of mistrust that wasn't there before. But to be honest, it will be there with anyone else, at least for me it will. I will never again blindly trust anyone, that is the gift of this infidelity mess. So how is getting myself a brand new person going to make me happier? Why would it make you happy, in my circumstances?

Simply because he's now a PROVEN cheater and a liar, sure people can change, so can a bank robber but that doesn't mean that after getting out of jail he will get a job at that same bank.

OTH, are you sure this was "just an EA", rule of thumb is that if they are in close proximity it's most likely a PA (that includes kissing, groping, etc.), they were co-workers so had easy access and opportunity, did you consider a polygraph ? even if you had access to his phone after the fact, you don't have the face to face conversations, adults involved in As typically have sex, they're already cheating so why not? they are not teenagers with sweaty hands, I highly recommend you get tested for STDs (some of them can even be transmitted via saliva), but anyway, let's just take his story as face value for now and back to your reason for staying, yes I suggest you RUN because it's way simpler now with no kids, but if you insist on considering R, take more time, as much as necessary for you to feel safe.

If he cheats again 5 or 10 years from now and a couple of children later, will you say the following ?: "well yes he cheated but he's remorseful again, plus we now have 3 children a mortgage and a business, plus I again will never know if the next guy will be faithful or not, so it's probably better to stay with the known cheater than with another guy that may or may not ever cheat ? I should have left the first time he cheated but now I feel trapped".

There's a reason why someone's background is important, cheating and lying are now part of your WH's resume, cheating when the M is still young is even worse because typically people are still in the honeymoon phase especially with no kids, life and the M typically gets more complicated afterwards even without infidelity.

[This message edited by Buster123 at 10:15 PM, June 6th (Thursday)]

He has betrayed you. Most cheaters are repeat offenders. If you have children later and he does it again, he will be betraying not only you (again) but other absolutely innocent people who never asked for that sort of "family". Your heart will break for them in ways you cannot possibly imagine. That sort of damage is, to my mind, irreparable.

As a younger FBS, who D'ed my EXWS, I just want to give my own reasons, why I chose this way.

Same as you, I didn't have kids and was still very young. My Ex also had "just" an EA, but I do not for a second think, that it was a mild thing. We were newlyweds. And than infidelity happened. In order to R, I had to treat my honeymoonphase and one of the special periods in life, which should be filled with love, joy and happiness for a 2 to 5 year healing and rebuilding time with lots of pain, counselling, trust issues and tears. I was not ready and willing to do this. I felt I deserved to enjoy this time.

Also what I wanted to add is that as a woman, I can choose the father of my future kids and for me this is not a choice I shouldn't just choose anybody especially not a known cheater.

I want the father father of my kids to be there for his family and not using time with an AP. I do think for myself that I wouldn't be that of a great mother if I chose someone who is able to hurt the family this horrible way. And I do think some would have chosen not to have children with their WS if they had known the pain, their Ws put the children in. Infidelity does harm also to children and this I would simply just knowingly risk.

Iris, I am a WW whose BH did not divorce me after my A. We aren't really young (late 30's), but young enough to start over and we have no children. We are not planning on having children ever. Neither relies on each other for money as we both have good jobs and could survive independently. We had been married about 4.5 years at the time of my A. The general consensus here would most definitely be that he should run. But he didn't want to run. He wanted to stay, as long as I fixed myself (NC, transparency, IC), gave him space and helped heal him (prioritizing him and our M, IC), and helped repair the M (again prioritizing the M and MC). Remember that I am not in his head and can only reiterate what he and I have spoken about, but he told me that he feels you don't throw away something broken until you have tried to repair it. So he gave me time to try to repair it. We are now over a year from dday, still repairing each other and our M, but out M is stronger now than it has been for at least 3 years. (Oh and I should probably mention that I had a 6 week PA in early 2018 and got caught as opposed to voluntarily confessing.) What works for one doesn't necessarily work for all. Spend time watching your WHs actions before making you decision to R or D. You know you, your WH, and your relationship far better than anyone else, but keep in your mind that the collective wisdom here is vast. No one can make this decision for you.

Why? Because it is the prudent thing to do.

I did not do this when I was young and have paid a heavy price for not seeking D, two more As after kids, and I nearly

blew my brains out this last time...thank God I found SI when I did.

Telling those that are young and childless to D is not flippant by any means, it is the most merciful thing one can do for a BS in that position.

I wish someone had been there to tell me that.

And I believe a former WS who has done the necessary work is less likely to cheat in the future than other people.

What is the source of this belief? Can it be backed up and the source provided?

I believe that the adage that previous behaviour is the best predictor of future behaviour.

If the most recent (I think it's the most recent) General Survey results are accurate just over 20% of men cheat and just under 20% of women cheat. There also seems to be a trend towards fewer younger people of both sexes cheating on SO than older people. There is more evidence that DNA may influence how likely a person is to cheat because of the oxytocin and vasopressin receptors. This is out of an article in Business Insider called 12 Science Based Facts about Cheating that all Couples Should Know.

The personality tests developed my Myers-Briggs also indicate that there are particular character types more likely to cheat.

Why D? There are not yet as many intertwined and complex issues to unwind. The odds are in favour of your next partner not being a cheater. You've been exposed and have a wake-up call which can be used as a stimuli to get help to educate yourself on what might be red flags in a new potential partner. You are young and there are good men out there.

I would suggest the book "Attached. The New Science Of Adult Attachment and How It Can Help You Find - And Keep - Love" by Amir Levine and Rachel Heller. My psychologist recommended it to me and it was a real eye opener.

It is up to you about what you will do. I would say to not jump into any decision too quickly. If you decide to attempt R his actions are way more important than his words. His actions can also be used to determine which path you'll take.

[This message edited by steadychevy at 4:31 PM, June 7th (Friday)]

numb&dumb

One thing to remember is that most of us never thought we would reconcile with any partner that cheated on us. However faced with the situation IRL what we choose surprises us.

THIS is something I think posters sometimes forget. Most people with kids also thought that they'd automatically D if they were cheated on, kids or no kids. But the reality I think is that they never imagined it would happen to THEM. So when infidelity is discovered they are so shocked and find out that circumstances do matter.

AbandonedGuy

D isn't so bad and in fact can be fuckin spectacular

I have more or less followed your story and I'm glad you're feeling more positive. Thanks for the encouragement lol. The thing is, D is still very much on the table for me and I don't believe it would be awful, in fact I can see how I could be happy following that route (after a period of grieving). I just don't think that D'ing a remorseful spouse is the path that is most in line with who I am and who I want to be as a person. Don't know if I'm making sense but to me it would mean that I don't believe people can change, as in "wrong me once and you're out, regardless of everything else"

Your dog bites you. Hard. Draws blood. Full blown viciously attacks you. You continue giving it treats. You continue petting it.

I can assure you that's not what R (or even limbo) look like. I'm not sure I'd prefer being in my H's shoes.

Owningitnow

And then I ask myself, "If a BS won't leave a cheater before they even have kids, can this relationship ever be healthy?" I feel the WS will understand that they hold all of the cards, especially if the BS says, "I'm staying because I love him/her." In my mind, a WS then knows, "If they still love me after I cheated, I can do whatever I want."

Ummm, I think if a WS is going to be a selfish bastard, they are going to interpret whatever in a way that suits them. A WS with that mindset,but with kids, would interpret the BS saying "I'm staying because of the kids" as "She's trapped and will never leave me, I can do whatever I want". My H is very aware that I'm ready to D, and the reason I don't is because I believe he can be a safe partner, not because I need him and will always forgive him.

WornDown

These types of threads "Why do you give this advice? Make this statement?" almost always devolve into multipage arguments because people are trying to put generalized knowledge/beliefs and apply it to a specific situation, without actually spelling out that situation (or they have a vision of the situation (that of course differs from person to person) that may/may not be reality).

I see that your advice changes with nuance. Not everyone's does. And if it does change with nuance, then isn't making general statements a bit misleading?

Darkness Falls

That said, *I* regret being so hasty in getting back together. I did so primarily because I felt guilty and that I owed it to him for having cheated. Bad, bad reasons.

Our marriage is decent but we are not “happily married.” We have a lot of issues that we rugsweep and ignore for the sake of raising our kids.

Interesting perspective. I didn't ask my H to stay with me, in fact I would've understood if he'd walked away. It would've been a lot easier. But he decided he wanted to stay and endure and he tells me it's because he wants our relationship.

Sisoon

And I believe a former WS who has done the necessary work is less likely to cheat in the future than other people.

May I ask why you believe this? I tend to believe it as well. In my case my H was so arrogantly convinced he was untouchable that he didn't think boundaries applied to him so he could text a coworker nonstop to beat his boredom. He is now being more introspective than ever in his life and realizing his weaknesses and shortcomings, which is better than even the above-average 30yo.

Buster

OTH, are you sure this was "just an EA", rule of thumb is that if they are in close proximity it's most likely a PA (that includes kissing, groping, etc.), they were co-workers so had easy access and opportunity, did you consider a polygraph?

Yes I'm as sure as anyone can be. They didn't even kiss. A polygraph would be less accurate than the proof I already have.

They are not teenagers with sweaty hands

Funny you say this because that is pretty much how I'd describe my H. He was acting like a total teenager in rebellion, not thinking beyond today, not thinking about consequences. As I said they were sexting and while it hurts, it was pretty laughable.

Don't know if I'm making sense but to me it would mean that I don't believe people can change, as in "wrong me once and you're out, regardless of everything else"

Take this with the understanding that I'm almost 20 years older than you and have become a bit cynical with time and experience, but this is honestly my mantra now. I used to believe that people could change and they deserved a chance to prove it. Now I don't care whether or not they can change as long as I don't have to be the one they practice their brand new adulting skills on. The only people whom I am obligated to help learn how to be adults are my children.

I think it's going to save me a lot of heartache in the future to have the mantra of "Fool me once, there's the door.". But as sissoon said, all of this advice comes from our own perspectives. I gave a man with a past a chance. A very changed man whose past was years behind him, according to his friends and family. I wound up in hell because of it. So no more. There are other beautiful souls out there to give people a chance and not judge them for their past, but I have taken myself out of that game. I am too important to me to risk again.

I hope that you have the right of it and he's really remorseful and won't ever violate the bounaries of your marriage again and hurt you that way. You still possess a capacity for hope that I do not.

And I believe a former WS who has done the necessary work is less likely to cheat in the future than other people.

It's a belief, an opinion. It comes from a couple of things.

First, it's analagous to broken bones supposedly being stronger at the break after they've healed.

Second, I've seen my W change.

But I don't mean it as a generalization. Rather, it's putting my bias out there for all to see, so you can account for it when reading my post.

'Cause generalizations don;t matter when you're talking about an individual. I had to make a decision So far, so good.

** posting as a member **

Most cheaters are repeat offenders.

Now that's an unfounded over-generalization coming straight from emotions. We simply do not have enough data to support that claim.

Besides, even if the odds were a million to 1 - and they're certainly better than that - if I wanted R enough, I might take the chance. There are lottery ticket buyers who make much worse bets every day - and having gone through this once, I know I will survive, even if R fails.

I've read through the discussion here and I think a lot of people have made a lot of good points. So, I'm just going to throw in my 2c here. Had my FWW cheated before we had our son, I would have divorced her with no questions asked. End of story. In other words, the only reason I gave her a chance is because we have a child.

I don't know what's the right choice for you.

When I see someone young, with no kids, no major life entanglements (aside from a broken marriage), my advice is to walk away. The rate of recidivism amongst wayward spouses is high enough to warrant concern. Is it possible that your WH will never, ever cheat again? Sure it is. It's also possible that you'll find yourself back in the same spot in the future.

I think it’s because many of us (myself included) thought at the time “I would be out of here if I didn’t have kids and a family”. Had it not been for the emotional and financial baggage, we would have certainly divorced. But, would we really have? Can we really answer that question having never been in that position? I cry bullshit. I know I used the kids and finances as an excuse to stay early on, but I have no doubt a year out that although that played a huge role, other parts of me truly loved the man and wanted to stay. Perhaps convincing myself and others that I only stayed for the kids helped soothe the shame of staying with a cheater. Most of us had claimed cheating was a dealbreaker before DDay so until we have “been there” in any situation, we don’t REALLY know what we would do. So if it’s those of us with kids insisting you should leave, realize that “advice” is coming from someone having never been in your position. I would put more thought on the perspectives of the other childless betrayed spouses.

I feel badly telling someone not married very long, without kids, or still just bf/gf to leave, but I have not seen this work out for anyone in real life.

This site would not exist if it weren’t for a couple reconciling without children. Maybe they were unicorns, but the both of them were willing to put the work in because they had love and desire to do so.

We often say we would “never” do something, but the fact of the matter is, we don’t know until we are in the thick of it. I said I would never cheat, yet here I am.

I can tell you that some days loving me wasn’t enough to keep working towards R. Some days that motivation shifted because that love just wasn’t there. Some days the kids were what saved our marriage. Some days is was the history and others it was our financial ties. My point is that your motivation can change from day to day. Not having children just removes one of the pieces that may (or may not) hold you together.

The real question is what do you want? Does what you want align with his actions?