SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

This is not an instance where I want to disrespect men and what they feel or disrespect women and what they feel, as I have no anger or frustration or snark about this at all. I feel sad and confused.

I have to say that at times it almost feels as if my body betrays me, not sexually responsive when my heart and mind wish for it. Maybe I'm stressed or just can't get into it. Maybe I find my mind wandering almost bored. Sometimes I don't realize it's been a while and have to be reminded. Can my body be trusted? Is my lack of interest something to push through? Or is it a form of my gut saying resentment is still there? Do I want too much in relationships? Am I in love with love? Do I need perfection? Was it just the fantasy I was attracted to and not reality? I just don't know. But this is an area that always causes me trouble over time, my marriage being the most important of those Rs. The article made it seem as if it's somewhat common, and anecdotally speaking, it seems to be. Just trying to work it out for myself.

OIN, I think you would benefit from looking at your stress levels/any unprocessed trauma.

Before XH and I paid for his vasectomy reversal to get done, we decided it made sense for me to see a fertility specialist to make sure I was all good to go, so we wouldn't waste the money if there was something wrong with me.

One of the things we discussed with this doctor was my drop in libido. I was in my early 30s, so I didn't exactly expect this, but also had kind of just chalked it up to "getting older" and "being in a long term relationship," because those were the two socially "acceptable" answers I knew of. I never thought of sex with my XH as boring, I always thoroughly enjoyed it when it happened, but like you mentioned, I could go for a while without it and not even notice.

Then I brought up that I had noticed a couple of other things - dryness and pain, both of which I had never previously had an issue with. In the year preceding this appointment, it had gone from somewhat uncomfortable to incredibly uncomfortable without lubricant. I had never needed lubricant before, and now I couldn't go without it. Even with lubricant, I could only go one time before I felt like I was completely raw, and sometimes even during the first time I was uncomfortable and had to push through. When in years prior to that, I could go 3 or 4 times in a row, no problem.

Then, I started having unexplained pain down there even when we were NOT having sex. Sometimes just in the middle of my work day, BAM, a flash of pain. Sometimes it was just a flash, other times it was a pulsating pain that could last for half an hour or more.

I have to say that at times it almost feels as if my body betrays me, not sexually responsive when my heart and mind wish for it.

I hear you here. I cried in the doctor's office, explaining how I felt ashamed of how low my drive had gotten, and that I didn't know how to deal with the pain issue.

Even with the pain/dryness issues, I still almost always finished, it was very rare that I didn't. So it wasn't a case of not orgasming, and therefore not getting the positive reinforcement.

The first thing the doctor asked me about was my stress level. Shocker, mine was through the roof. He was not surprised by that at all, and indicated that stress is frequently associated with a lowering of libido.

I had everything checked out, full exams, full panel of tests, and there was nothing there. The doctor prescribed me Ativan to take when I knew we were planning to be intimate. He literally said to me, "I don't want to suggest anything about your relationship with your husband, but there may be some trauma you haven't processed that is causing this response."

I never disclosed to the doctor that XH was a sex addict, or any of my trust issues related to that. Honestly, I don't even think I was consciously aware that there were trust issues to disclose, as we had kind of "handled" the sex addiction, or so I thought. But the doctor made it very clear that there was something going on in my head that was causing me to push sex out of my mind (hence the long dry spells), and then once sex came about, my body's inability to get wet, and the pain, were ways I was trying to prevent the sex from happening.

Then, once XH got the reversal done, we started having sex more frequently because duh, that's how you make a baby. And yes, I found a new lubricant that was incredibly helpful. BUT, the pain issue completely went away - no more having to excuse myself to the bathroom because of shooting pain during my work day. And even without lubricant, I found myself able to get aroused much easier. I actually started to initiate, even on days when I was nowhere near fertile or ovulating! I started to feel normal again.

I've talked about this a LOT with IC, and I believe this increase in libido was directly related to an increase in trust and a decrease in stress. XH had finally followed through on his promise to get the reversal, something which I had been waiting on for years. Plus the sexually deviant behaviors had decreased significantly, so I wasn't constantly finding random masturbatory aids around the house, or finding my belongings missing.

I still find it fascinating that the doctor, knowing absolutely nothing about my chronic source of stress/sexual trauma at home, was able to pinpoint the problem with such accuracy, even when I couldn't see it for the very serious thing that it was. I'll admit, the fact that he called out trauma specifically did make me a little defensive, and I refused to take the Ativan because I thought in a twisted way it would be like admitting to sexual abuse by my husband.

Sometimes I don't realize it's been a while and have to be reminded

I was like you and could go for a while and not even notice without being reminded. I had NEVER been like that before. I will say there is something to the concept of the more you do it, the more you want it. Because once we started having sex more, I definitely noticed I wanted it more.

is it a form of my gut saying resentment is still there?

This is worth investigating. There is something to be said for trusting your gut, and if you think there is possibly resentment there, I wouldn't ignore that. At the time I would NEVER have said I resented my husband. I did not associate my lowered libido with my X or his behaviors, and when we did have sex, I did enjoy connecting with him, even when it was painful. But my body was saying otherwise, even if my conscious mind couldn't process it at the time.

Do I want too much in relationships? Am I in love with love? Do I need perfection? Was it just the fantasy I was attracted to and not reality?

Betrayal trauma aside, we codependents are often the orchestrators of our own downfall. I can blame a lot of my stress on my XH and his sex addiction, but a great deal of it I also brought on myself. We typically take on the bulk of the emotional labor in a family. As you and I have discussed before, we are the "relationship workhorses." And this persistent stress, much of which we bring on ourselves, certainly contributes to chronic elevated cortisol levels, which typically tank libido due to a decrease in production of our sex hormones.

[This message edited by HeHadADoubleLife at 12:31 AM, August 2nd (Friday)]

I have a book recommendation for anyone who is really interested in this topic. It is called The Three Marriage Enigmas.

I didn't read the article and it sounds like the author may be pushing some alternate Lifestyles or other things. The book I mention above does not do that. It comes at the topic from how do you strengthen your marriage and prevent problems from developing.

It is been a little while since I've read it but I can summarize it here. The author describes a downward spiral that occurs in marriages over time. I will focus on the part about the sex since that is the topic in this thread. In the courting phase, the man pursues the woman and woos her. He does all of the things that make the woman feel special, attractive and loved. If the relationship develops then eventually it moves to a sexual connection. The woman is primed for a sexual relationship because she is receiving all of that attention from the man. So she feels loved and attractive and thus her sex drive increases. The male sex drive tends to be "on" more of the time one way or the other. But when the couple starts having sex, the man feels particularly loved because many men connect sex to love.

Got that so far? It made perfect sense to me when I read it. But what happens next? Over time in a marriage, the man stops paying attention in all the special ways that he did when they were courting. The woman may stop doing the things she was doing as well, such as paying more attention to how she appears and complimenting her husband etc. So the mutual commitment in the marriage relationship actually starts to dampen the very activities that bring the two people together sexually. Complacency develops.

Over time an average married woman will have her sex drive diminish because all of the activities that make her want to have sex are also diminishing in the relationship. The man isn't cuddling, he isn't complimenting her frequently, he isn't expressing consistent affection and desire for her. So this Dynamic contributes significantly to a woman's declining sex drive in marriage. It probably is not the only reason, as many people in this thread have described life's distractions and pressures and prioritiescertainly make an impact as well. But it is a significant dynamic in many relationships. Essentially, the woman doesn't feel loved as much or as attractive, so her desire for sex drops off.

Now think about the other side of the coin. The woman has her sex drive diminishing and yet the man's sex drive isn't diminishing. He wants sex just as much but his wife is showing less interest. Men will get frustrated about that and eventually, whether consciously or subconsciously, the man will interpret this as a lack of Love and Desire for him. As this continues his frustration builds and so does the feeling that he is no longer loved as deeply.

Now the couple are in the spiral. The man is no longer wooing his wife so she does not have the desire for sex. Because they aren't having sex as frequently, the man doesn't feel loved. And the spiral just builds upon itself.

This is a significant portion of the book and I am obviously summarizing it very quickly here. But I think the cycle the author describes makes great sense. He references other people's research in the book. He also references many people he has counseled and talked about these Dynamics with over the years.

And if you think of many of the themes on this site you will see that they connect well to this marital enigma. Think about ego Kibbles. That phenomenon is essentially how he describes the courting process. In its absence, women may be particularly susceptible to the advances of a potential AP. It is like they are walking through the desert and someone comes up with all the water they could ever want. They never intentionally thought about having an affair. Yet here is a person giving them just what they have been missing in their marriage and women may be caught off guard and overwhelmed by getting this thing they need and want to feel loved. One thing leads to another and they are making poor decisions based upon this inner need that is not being met in the marriage.

This dynamic is not only present for women. Certainly many men will be equally susceptible but the majority of men are probably triggered more by the possibility of sex. Because if their marriage is in the downward spiral, they are lacking the sexual contact that many men need to feel loved. So a man may pursue sex just for the sex. But the author would argue that a man in a spiraling marriage actually doesn't feel loved. And they may not realize that the lack of sex is making them feel this way. And if they do realize it, that they don't feel loved, they may not be able to connect it to the lack of sex. Or be able to articulate it very well. So when a woman makes herself available to him, the man may think "well, I just want the sex" but really he may really be needing to feel loved and desirable again.

I don't believe the author was ever trying to rationalize why someone would have an affair. He isn't saying that an affair is okay because of this. He certainly is not advocating some type of alternate lifestyle or open marriages. I also don't think he is trying to use this Theory as a justification for an affair. He is just trying to explain the spiral that makes people susceptible to either an affair or to ending the marriage.

Anyway, I enjoyed the book and I actually think it's a good book for any couple that wants to strengthen their marriage. I'll be interested to see what people think here.

[This message edited by Trdd at 7:29 AM, August 2nd (Friday)]

Trdd, that makes a lot of sense to me. That spiral certainly happened in my M, although we didn't stop having sex when we could.

The article claims that some/many women's interest starts to wane as early as one year into the relationship.

I thought about asking how the author defines longterm. I don't know that I would consider a year longterm.

I know the seven year itch was right on time for my spouse. Got bored w/her 1st spouse after 6 mos.JFO that earlier this year. Would have been good info,....before we married. Hindsght and all.

Women cannot be pigeonholed

Says the article, after basically doing precisely that.

Trdd, all that jives with my experience, personally and from listening intently to the marital woes of friends and family.

My experience in long term relationships is that men just stop trying in bed. They stop doing they things they know arouse you and instead just try to get their needs met.

Certainly many men will be equally susceptible but the majority of men are probably triggered more by the possibility of sex. Because if their marriage is in the downward spiral, they are lacking the sexual contact that many men need to feel loved.

Interesting article. And yes, it mirrors my first hand and many 2nd hand accounts from men. It really shouldn't come as any surprise at all, I mean, how many sayings are there about marriage and the death of a sexual relationship? 100's or 1000's? Do they exist in every culture (yes, I think they do, AFAIK, at least in many of the 1st world cultures where I have relationships with men who talk about it)? It's very common, and has been as long as women have had the choice (RIGHTLY SO, just wanted to add) as to when/how they would have sex with their husbands (remember, this wasn't the case until recently in human history).

The phrase quoted above, while I think it does apply at times, I think is far too broad for some (including myself) men. I'll draw an analogy, let's say that some men feel loved by having their wives cook a great meal for them (which, I'm pretty sure is true). Do men who feel this way go to restaurants to eat to feel "loved"? Of course not, they go because they are hungry and/or want to try new/different food. Love has nothing to do with it, even though that's the language they feel love in, it's not the goal of that particular dinner. And I think this is true for the men I know who have affairs. Yes, I think that many of them have physical touch as their love language, but no, I don't think they are looking for "love" from an AP anymore than a man with acts of service as his love language is looking for "love" when they go out to eat. It's far, far more simple than that, they are hungry (rightly or not, they could be 800lb gluttons or actually be starving, it doesn't matter) and just want something fast and easy to eat (f**k). Or just want something different to eat. And the only reason I call this out, I've seen, for years here, BW's twist themselves into knots about "did he love her", much like many WH's (myself included) twist themselves into knots about "did she like sex with him more". To which, in both cases, the answer is very often the same. Love's got nothing to do with it. And, on the flip side, sexual prowess has nothing to do with it.

I love sex. Not as in the “I think about it X numbers of time within every moment” physiological, biologically wired kind of way. I just love the emotional connection I feel with an intimate partner

Not picking on your personally (OP), but, I think that there are a lot of people who would echo your comment, to which I'd say; "you don't love sex, you love the emotional connection". Which is backed up by what you said later:

I’ve been almost sexless for three years now - and I’m not suffering

If you "love" something and it's taken away, you suffer. Being sexless for 3 years sounds like hell to me. And the need for emotional connection can be found elsewhere, I have a contact list of 50+ men I could call to discuss a painful emotional issue, but a contact list of 1 I can call for sex. Emotional needs are, speaking for me personally (but, I argue, I'm not alone), laughably easy to fill. And, I think that the reverse is true, imagine you just have a desire for sex. How hard would that be for you to fill? I'm going to guess "laughably easy", you could have a guy there providing sex in the time it took me to write this response. The same is true for my emotional needs, they are easily filled in many, many different ways. But arguing that I (not saying you did, but this is often implied in other man v women posts) had sex (or an A) to fill "an emotional need", IMHO, completely misses the fact that I didn't have an unmet emotional need. I had an unmet physical need that sex fulfilled. Now, that's not to say that sex is entirely unemotional for me (well, another topic entirely, things changed a lot after my W's A), but it's a side benefit, not at all the goal of the interaction. Like going to nice restaurant that happens to have really nice artwork on the wall. I like art, so its great that they have something interesting to look at on the wall. But the reason I'm in the restaurant in the first place is because I'm hungry. Take that drive away, and I'd still be at home posting on SI. Or in an art museum (with my close guy friends) where I can easily see all the art (have emotional conversations) I want without any meal at all. But, truth be told, my emotional needs are just very easy to fill, I wouldn't find myself in a company of men pouring out my heart because, well, it just doesn't do much for me. My physical needs, however, are much, much more difficult to fill. If my W and I had D'ed, I have no doubt that I would have been out looking to fill that need quickly, where, the emotional side, my friends/family would have picked up the slack from my W.

The best way to examine this issue is to look at the experience of transsexuals who, during the transition, change their hormonal balance. It's shocking, in both directions, how much testosterone and estrogen play a role in sexual drive. Give a woman a male dose of testosterone, and, surprise (well, not really), you wind up with a woman who's very sexually motivated. Take the testosterone away from a man and increase estrogen, and, well; you wind up a sexually unmotivated man. No, it's not exactly that simple, but there are plenty of resources where you can see this reported "I had no idea" from both sexes when given the hormones of the other. Personally, I can't imagine what it's like to have no desire for sex. Sounds both awful and incredibly freeing at the same time, if that makes any sense. But, I'm sure I'd be right there with the other MTF transsexuals saying "I had no idea" what life is like without testosterone soaking my brain in random sexual imagery.

Rideitout, I appreciate your take on the book summary. However, I think there is a small but significant distinction that needs to be made.

I can't speak directly for the author but I believe he would agree with my interpretation. A man in a sexless or very low sex marriage will not feel loved or attractive. If they start an affair, they are not necessarily in love but their drive for the affair is often not just for the physical sex. They may think it is just physical but the sex is subconciously linked to feeling attractive and loved. For many men the sex comes first... and then they get the feelings they need. For many women they get the feelings from other things and then offer sex to keep the other things flowing.

If a guy is not getting sex from his wife, a coworker flirts with him and he takes advantage. Yes, he might want the sex and that is likely what is in his mind. And it is what he would tell his friend if he revealed the affair. But underneath, the sex is meeting some of his emotional needs. So the drive to the affair is not just physical, it is emotional. Essentially, similar to a woman whose need for listening, empathy and feeling desirable leads her to bed... not just because of the pursuit of great sex but because she needs to feel desirable, attractive and loved. And a WW will sometimes have an affair partner where the sex wasnt great but she recieved great volumes of empathy and "ego kibbles" so the sex was a fair trade off for her to continue to get that.

None of that is actual love or being in love. On that I think we agree. But the emotional component is there nonetheless, much of the time, for women and men in affairs. That would be what I think the author would say. And it makes people that much more susceptible to affairs. If it was only a physical need people were seeking, I actually think we would have far few people on this site. Their would still be plenty but fewer.

Of course there are plenty of outliers among men and women where different needs drive the quality

Of the marriage or the reason for an affair. But the spiral dynamic seems to fit the average couple very well.

Yes, he might want the sex and that is likely what is in his mind. And it is what he would tell his friend if he revealed the affair. But underneath, the sex is meeting some of his emotional needs. So the drive to the affair is not just physical, it is emotional.

I can't argue with this; you could be right. All the men I know could be lying. But I can speak from my experience as a single man and say that "emotional needs" were not one of the reasons that entered my minds as why I was pursing a woman. Ever. Now, I'll grant that I've very low on the scale for "emotional neediness". I just don't have many emotional needs, and I have none that aren't fulfilled by my relationships with other men. The need I had that couldn't be fulfilled elsewhere was a sexual one.

I was going to say, speaking candidly, I'm not sure I'd have engaged with women much/at all if not for the sexual desires that I had. And I thought that sounded terrible, but then I remembered back to my pre-puberty days at school. And you know what, I remember thinking "girls are icky". :) Not literally, but, having almost nothing to do with girls at all, when I wanted to play a sport, it was all boys. If we wanted to play video games, all boys. In fact, my entire world was boys until "that age" when suddenly girls became much, much more attractive to me and I had a "reason" to want to spend time with them. And before anyone says misogynist, we're talking about 10 year old RIO here! I didn't hate women, I just had little/nothing in common with them. I didn't have much reason to pursue friendship with them because our common interests were, well, not common.

I just wish that I had at some point become entangled in a marriage with a man who just wanted to have sex in tons of different ways at random times without infidelity involved and without his emotional temperature being a factor. Emotional needs, boredom, women be so different and complicated, we barely want sex, whatever. I just wish I had had a husband who would have come home, seen me doing laundry or some such thing, closed the door and locked it and taken me against the damned wall. This shit annoys me. I'm apparently supposed to need to be wined and dined and treated like a delicate flower, but I'll be damned if I haven't felt like the man in quite a number of relationships.

Of course people get bored in long-term relationships. They stop trying. It's human nature. The only solution is to speak up and have a partner willing and eager to have fun with life.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 8:40 AM, August 4th (Sunday)]

My phone is being pissy and I can't copy to quote, so I'll try to remember what I wanted to address.

I've been thinking about the man not doing all the romantic things anymore and the woman not working so hard on her appearance. I think this is when understanding your partner's love language can be helpful. So, you R doesn't bring you flowers anymore, but he makes sure your tires are inflated properly and you have gas in your car. That is his way of expressing love. Recognize it.

WRT women not paying as much attention to their appearance, that really bothers me. It is not a woman's job to look pretty or nice or sexy or anything else. Men who say their wives let themselves go are woefully ignorant about how the female works. Does anyone really think women stop caring about how they look? That's just stupid. What happens is our priorities shift from ourselves to our family, our children. Our bodies change as we age and have babies. Perimenopause is an asshole, let me tell you! It would be helpful here if the H would at least attempt to understand this and provide real support rather than thinking, "Poor me. My W isn't as pretty as she used to be and she doesn't dote on me anymore."

Ok, rant over.

WRT the dead bedroom and women now having more power, men cheated even when they could have their way with their wives whenever they wanted. That argument doesn't fly.

My sex drive was directly proportionate to how I was being treated outside of the bedroom. If I was being yelled at, belittled, ignored - I wasn't feeling very sexy or sexual.

I had extreme sexual chemistry with my second husband, the one who left me on DDay in April 2018. But it was because I had that emotional component. I had loved him for so long, idealized him, thought of him as the love of my life - and thought he felt the same way about me.

At the end of our relationship, he told me that he would have sex with me right after I got home from work trips because he'd gone without it for so long, but after I'd been back home for a day or two he said he was like, "meh."

I gained 20 pounds and was slow to lose it. He got angrier by the day about it. One day he said, "Look at you! I used to jump your bones all the time!"

By the time the end rolled around and he was (probably) focused on pursuing the OW, he had a hard time even getting turned on in bed.

I could have had sex with him every day for the rest of my life, happily. Now, it has been almost 17 months since I've had sex. I feel so sorrowful doing without that. He took away something that was so precious to me, but it was precious because I believed that I was the love of his life, and as it turned out he didn't even love me at all.

Sometimes I wonder if I will ever have sex again, and I worry that, even if I do, my experience with my ex will make it impossible for me to ever again lose my inhibitions in bed or feel good about someone seeing me naked, etc. He made me feel worthless and ugly. It's hard to get past.

So sometimes it is about the sex

Lol. ^^^

Well for women, sex is in our brain. So is it the sex or is it the mind? With women, they are one and the same (in my experience). I think that's why I am so frustrated.

((((NorCalLost))))

I have read everyone's reply a few different times, but there's too much to respond to. I can relate to many of the points made. My H has ADD and so do two of my three kids. That has created a constant chaos and stress for me, no doubt a desire zapper.

The other day I was looking up and printing out insurance Explanation of Benefits statements from my primary PPO to send to my secondary PPO for reimbursement. I realized that I will most likely wait for a check that never comes, then I will have to call and sit on hold for 15 minutes just to have them tell me they didn't receive the documents, so I'll have to do this all again. Then I thought to myself, "How exactly are we supposed to avoid stress when the modern world creates as many obstacles and as much red tape as possible?"

When my H has stress, he wants more sex. When I have stress, I want more sleep.

I think looking at desire without recognizing how hormones work is just walking in circles. Men have testosterone. It gives muscles, hairy chests and the sex drive. Women have a small amount of testosterone but it is overwhelmed by estrogen. This is a very simplified explanation. When life overwhelms people there are other hormones at work as well. Our bodies react to stress by trying to “fix” things. What does our body need right then? It needs whatever hormones will fix it. These might not be the sex hormones. In women their testosterone might be useless while they are trying to look after kids, work, run a house and live up to everyone’s expectations. Men have the awful responsibility of keeping the family solvent and safe. Because testosterone is what drives the males to mate almost nothing overwhelms it except terror, pain and grief. In women the smaller amount of it can be completely smothered by life. Desire is there if it has room in her life. Many women become more assertive and sexually interested in midlife because their estrogen levels have dropped and allowed their testosterone to work it’s magic. If their marriage has been bad, or the guy in the office is now her focus, then she blindsides everyone, including herself. Desire can pop up anywhere. It is hormone driven in men, and to a lesser degree in women but love keeps the interest if the two people try their best to be good partners. If the woman says she is too tired, she is. There isn’t enough testosterone in her body to overcome that. When women become addicted to sex there are sooo many reasons. Our bodies are suppose to work as a well oiled machines. When mind and body are in sync it is homeostasis. It is healthy and working properly. I just looked at the number of people in the US on anxiety and depression medication. What the he**! We are making ourselves sick and our relationships are paying the price.

Btw, I hate social media. It is too easy a way out when time and attention can fix most things.

Excellent post, Cooley!

I read about a study a while back connecting D and hormonal birth control. It talked about how women are attracted to different types of men at different times in their cycles. During ovulation, whenestrogen is higher, they are attracted to strong, assertive men. During their luteal phase, between ovulation and menses when progesterone is highest, they are attracted to gentler, kinder men.

The conclusion was that the reason so many Ms break up when the couple starts trying to have kids is because the hormones affect what a woman likes. Most women are on some form of hormonal birth control when they are single and dating. They meet the man they love and get married. The cpue decides they want kids, so the women stops using her birth control. Suddenly, she discovers she doesn't like her H all that much.

Hormones control the body. Everything we think, feel, and do is affected by hormones. It's very important to take that into account when analyzing our thoughts, feelings, and actions.

If you are stressed, your body has an abundance of cortisol. You can lower the production of cortisol and reduce the bodies stress response just by doing deep breathing exercises. Deep, slow breathing with longer exhales than inhales activates your body's vagas nerve, which activates the parasympathetic nervous system, which dampens the sympathetic nervous system, which stops the fight/flight/freeze response, and the body relaxes.

It's very easy to do. Inhale through the nose for a slow count of 4. Exhale through the nose for a slow count of 6. Practice that breathing for a few minutes. Maybe close your eyes. It can stop a panic attack.