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Take the thing that your partner values and deny him or her that. Nothing says love like that, does it?

It's actually worse than your analogy. Because, in your analogy, at least you could talk to someone else about those issues if your spouse decided "once a month" was a reasonable period of time between uttering words. Sex is literally the only thing that separates a spouse from a close friend. Take it away, it's now a friendship with legal entanglements.

I'm not overly religious, but I do think that some religions have good guidance on this (even if it's been massively diluted to reflect our society today). Simply put, after marriage, it's not yours to withhold anymore. You promised it to your spouse as part of the vows, it's "theirs", you are just holding on to it. It's also where the concept of "A's are theft" comes from, your giving away something (sex) that's not yours to give anymore. You already "sold" it to your H or W.

That's how I try to look at it personally. Unless something is really wrong with me (sick, injury, etc), I never say "no" because it's not my right to say no anymore. I promised this body to her, it's her to do with as she likes, and she made the same promise to me.

I realize this is probably showing my age.. But that's how I looked at it.

Also, we talk about this in the abstract, this is reality for a WHOLE lot of people. The vast majority of men I talk to personally are in some level of sexual denial, from 1X a month (which is so out of sorts with my preferred frequency that it's a bit hard to imagine) to 1X a week when the H would like sex 1X a day. It's not at all a thought experiment, it's reality for a whole lot of people (including me, pre-A).

From the perspective of the spouse who wished sex was still part of the marriage...I couldn't disagree more. Respectfully.

And the thought of having one partner "lie back" and be "taken" because they no longer have the say over their own body? I'm trying to imagine how "taking" someone in that manner could be a satisfying experience.

I think the analogy of withholding communication vs withholding sex was interesting.

My FWH is/was/and probably forever shall be, a pathetic communicator. (With the exception of our courtship.) So, during our entire marriage, 31 years, he has sucked at communication. To the point of telling me he wanted a divorce. And when I approached him on how we would follow through with divorce, he said he didn't really want a divorce - just said it to get me to stop talking.

So, for many, many years, we had sex, and he didn't communicate. So, is the edict the same??? That in a marriage it is no longer his choice to withhold communication from me?

And if not, isn't that a bit of a double standard???

Sadly for me, I am now missing out on both of those relationship "musts" - communication AND sex!

Sadly for me, I am now missing out on both of those relationship "musts" - communication AND sex!

Me too. Me too.

Sex is literally the only thing that separates a spouse from a close friend.

Rideitout, surely you don't really believe this??? I couldn't disagree more.

I believe that sex is in inherent part of intimacy. It is unfair for one person to unilaterally decide that sex is out of the picture. If there had been a sex life during the marriage, the reasonable expectation is that it would continue. If one person wants to stop having sex and that is not satisfactory to the other partner, I think that a discussion should be had about the future of the marriage. If there is a medical reason that sex must stop, intimacy can and should be preserved by mutually pleasurable physical activities other than traditional "sex". People feel love in different ways. One of those ways is touch. These people NEED touch to feel love. I feel like that cessation of sex in marriage would be a discussion to be had with a MC in order to come up with a solution that is satisfactory for both parties. There would have to be some underlying reasoning in my opinion for sex to just stop. It is a natural and healthy part of a good marriage.

10 years in a sexless M, so many attempts to understand, discuss, resolve, etc. I was blamed for not being nice to him and who knows what crap... long story.

DDay happens and following 3-4 months (shock stage), it hit me really hard that the as..le WH robbed me of 10 years of sexual life. Well I was not ready to tolerate even a day anymore and made it clear that I’m not interested in a ‘husband’, who was being a piece of furniture and not doing his duty. He was given 1 evening to decide, that it is going to be either him or someone else and I informed him that he would have to catch up on all the things I wanted to experiment and he denied me. He smartened up really quickly, and has been for 3 years so far.

So right now, when I hear about sexless M, it makes me angry.

Anyone who wants to get benefits of M, should understand that sex is a part of that deal, unless BOTH partners are willing to forfeit it.

Sexless M is always an indication of serious problems in relationship, often cheating of the partner withholding sex. I could compromise on frequency and adjust it to my partner’s libido but to give up completely and stay married...no way...

Is it reasonable for one person to decide for both that there will be no sex anymore? What should the other partner do if they want to continue the relationship but also don't want to be sexless?

The fact that we need to discuss this shows that while a WS frequently struggles with selfishness, a BS often struggles with dysfunction, too--an inability to simply say, "No."

They can "decide" whatever they want. It's called free will. And no, you don't get to resort to violence or rape because 'marriage is a promise.' We still have free will inside of marriage. I would not want it any other way. Geeze.

We do have power though. The power to say, "No" and enforce our boundary. The more I read here, the more I see how many BS need to work on their ability to say, "No. If this is your best, then goodbye."

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 6:05 PM, August 17th (Saturday)]

Rideitout, surely you don't really believe this??? I couldn't disagree more.

Oh, I most assurudely do believe it. But, I'd like to know, what else do you feel separates a spousal relationship from any other long term relationship? I share my deepest thoughts with friends, even things I don't share with my WW. I enter into business arrangements/contracts with others freely. I love other people (family, for example). No, if you break it down, there's really only one thing I do with my W and nobody else in the world and that thing is sex.

WH robbed me of 10 years of sexual life

I feel exactly the same way. And it's not just the period during the A, it's our entire sexual relationship where I adjusted my "needs" and pretty much pushed all my desires aside to keep the peace. Where the OM, he was doing all those things within a week of "I love you". Those years, I can never get back. And sadly, there's no making up for it now, I'm older, less stamina, less attractive, and less sexually motivated. Those 10 years are gone, and yes, I feel robbed. I sacrificed something that was/is terribly important to me for the sake of the relationship. And it was a false sacrifice, I never had to give it up because, as the A showed me, my WW was more than happy to do all the "good stuff", just not with me.

The sad part of this, I'd never accept it again from any woman (If I D'ed). It's going to be everything or nothing at all. And I know that's terribly unfair, but I doubt I'll ever be able to reconcile it. Any woman saying "no" to a sexual request to me sounds like "No, I don't like you enough, but for another guy, it would be a yes". And yes, it's unfair and in some cases (maybe most) incorrect. But one only needs to read a handful of A stories before it becomes pretty clear that at least some (most, IMHO) women are willing to go "all out" for an AP, BJ's, swallowing, anal, facials, sex in public.. <sigh> It's a mental prison, that's for sure.

I would get a divorce personally. That’s not a marriage I am interested in. Sex is important to me. After dday, I became even more picky. It has to be good and frequent. No sex (unless there is a physical issue) is a deal breaker for me.

Unless your spouse has a medical issue, withdrawing of sex in a marriage is a form of abuse. Life is too short to not have regular sex which brings great physical and psychological benefits.

After my wife had her affair I told her if she refuses me sex (look, I’m not going to pressure her if she’s not well and genuinely tired) and show passion for me, then I will divorce her. Without thinking twice about it. I will not cheat but I will divorce her. You want to feel desired sexually by your spouse. I can have plenty of relationships with people without having sex. But I only have sex with one and if that isn’t working out because they don’t feel like it, then I will divorce and find a woman who will feel like it.

My husband is a recoverying SA.

His recovery is going very, very slowly.

Here's our most amusing interaction that just happened a few days ago.

My husband told me that he knew him lying to me is the thing that's hurt me the most.

And then not 5 minutes later...he lied to me. Looked right into my eyes and lied. It was an hour before he came clean. I'm not even sure he would have, TBH, if I hadn't kept pushing.

My husband is not an emotionally safe partner. Ergo, no sex. I'm over just fucking your spouse. I mean, it's fine to scratch an itch like that, but I no longer will have sex if there's no emotional connection. I've done it for over a decade. Just not going back to it.

In every other way he's a perfect partner. We don't have disagreements about anything else other than his addiction. He's very present around the house and with the kids. We make each other laugh.

I hardly think I'm abusing my husband because I don't want to feel like shit when we have sex...and therefore abstain.

Maybe at some point I'll feel comfortable having sex with him. Like PP said, that largely depends on his choices.

[This message edited by secondtime at 8:37 PM, August 17th (Saturday)]

Rideitout, surely you don't really believe this??? I couldn't disagree more.

For a man in 2019, it has to be his #1 focus with women. For his own protection.

I do things with my GF, we help each other out. But the sex is the Alpha and Omega.

There are a couple of recent threads here where the men married later in wife, wives became WW fairly quickly. To be blunt, it is obvious to me that their wives just aren't that into them, and married them because of money or security. I would like to say more, but I can't here. I am trying to nudge them a bit in the right direction.

That deal is done today. A man cannot go down that route anymore. For his own protection. Do your job, your hobbies, have your friends, whatever else... if the SO wants to be a part of that, you want her there, all the better. But if the sex isn't there... gotta let it go. Just way too dangerous in 2019.

As a starting point, address the underlying self-centeredness of the whole "I'm making a decision for both of us" dynamic as it will have all kinds of implications for the relationship.

Yep like an affair. Unilateral. When I addressed the affairs and the porn and his sexual refusal of me in our marriage, he chose his secret internet second life over our marriage. This happened despite the suggestion I made that to dispute what he told the AP and their secret Facebook group minions (that I was frigid and we had a dead bedroom and I refused sex) I wanted one of our marital agreements to br that we would be intimate at least twice a day.

To me, unilateral sexual decisions are abusive in marriage. As I told him, this is the only legitimate need I could not get met outside of our traditional marriage. I understand the concept but do NOT choose to partake of open or poly.

Also his affair and his spitting on reconcilliation means that I am unwillingly celibate since I am still married and don't cheat and don't do NSA or ONS.

My husband is not an emotionally safe partner. Ergo, no sex. I'm over just fucking your spouse. I mean, it's fine to scratch an itch like that, but I no longer will have sex if there's no emotional connection. I've done it for over a decade. Just not going back to it.

I agree, secondtime. Completely. But can I ask what your reaction would be if your WH said, "You owe me sex. Or I'm going elsewhere"?

This is where a BS gets confused sometimes. I thought we were discussing sex PRIOR to anyone cheating, because cheating changes everything.

Honestly? I think one partner deciding "We aren't going to have sex again ever" is just as bad as "I made the decision to sleep with another person who isn't my spouse".

Marriages are partnerships; means 2 people make the decisions.

Honestly? I think one partner deciding "We aren't going to have sex again ever" is just as bad as "I made the decision to sleep with another person who isn't my spouse".

Both are reneging on the marriage contract, IMHO. I'm not sure one is worse than the other, an A causes more immediate pain, where a low/no sex marriage causes a lifetime of dull pain. Personally, I'd rather have the sharp pain and "get it over with". You won't get a lot of support from family/friends D'ing your spouse because they don't have sex with you, my guy friends would say "Idiot, you don't D, you get it somewhere else" and my family would say "Grow up, you'll live, this is what marriage is".

I understand the concept but do NOT choose to partake of open or poly.

Open/poly is a reasonable (if difficult to imagine) solution for a woman who's husband won't sleep with her. It's not much of an option for a man, male "3rds" are a dime a dozen, so much so that a male 3rd often isn't even invited to the "parties" because there are far too many of them. I have a few friends in the lifestyle, without a willing wife, it's professionals if you want into the poly scene. Having read for years on sites like this, I'm really not sure it's possible at all to determine "real NSA" (a woman who really just wants to have sex) from "fake NSA" (a woman who says she only wants sex but actually wants more) anymore. My W's A was pretty much nothing but sex and yet, she still claims "it wasn't for sex". I'm 100% sure the OM say her as someone "looking for more sex" but she absolutely claims that's not the case. This isn't just her, it extends across 100's or 1000's of A stories that I've read. So, the whole question of what is NSA really comes into question for me. A's seem like the absolute pinnacle of NSA, I mean, I'm married, there CAN'T be strings. And that's abundantly clear to most people going into this, and yet, still, sex isn't the goal..

But yes, I agree with your analysis, "I don't want to have sex anymore" is in a lot of way similar to "I want to have sex with other people". Both a transgression against a "traditional" marriage, one far more socially acceptable than the other (and wildly different between sexes too).

Both are reneging on the marriage contract, IMHO. I'm not sure one is worse than the other, an A causes more immediate pain, where a low/no sex marriage causes a lifetime of dull pain. Personally, I'd rather have the sharp pain and "get it over with". You won't get a lot of support from family/friends D'ing your spouse because they don't have sex with you, my guy friends would say "Idiot, you don't D, you get it somewhere else" and my family would say "Grow up, you'll live, this is what marriage is".

RIO, I get what you're saying, and just wanted to clarify - I am not saying one is better or worse. I am just saying that in a healthy monogamous relationship, both parties involved discuss and decide on things like sex/other relationships together. One party does NOT get to unilateraly decide on something that important. IMHO, anyone in a committed monogamous relationship that makes a decision like that with no discussion about it is being a selfish AHole.

The poly thing is admittedly a sensitive subject for me personally. My STBXWH wanted to "explore a poly relationship" with his 18 yo AP and treated me like shit for months because I told him flat out that was never gonna happen with me. I was under no obligation to green light that because that was a decision he made and didn't discuss with me at all. I know there are plenty of people that a poly lifestyle works well for, but I know that I am not one of them. I don't understand the poly thing, but I also say to each their own. If it works for you and your spouse and doesn't cause harm to others, then awesome.

As far as friends and family... While those opinions obviously do factor into people's psyche around relationships, ultimately it is the two people in the relationship and their opinions/thoughts/feelings that matter the most. If sex is important to one person and their spouse is not interested in that, then D is a perfectly viable option. And screw anyone for any judgement on that because everyone else is not IN the marriage. If you are in a marriage that is not good for you in whatever way, you have a duty of care to yourself to leave if you know things will never change for either party.

Another scenario IMO, unfair to a marriage, is the opposite..If all one partner thinks about and focuses on during free time is Sex, sex, sex..

Especially if said partner has ED in which he stays erect, but takes an extraordinarily long time to finish..No fun for the other partner to have to work to the point of pain or exhaustion to help him finish.

There’s no shame in having this disorder, it’s all about attitude..This person has no right to take on an attitude that nothing will please him, to act cranky / nasty if the act of direct vigorous genital stimulation can’t last at least 30 minutes or more..To belittle his partner for her best efforts to please him..

I think two people in a relationship have to figure out a balance that works in the bedroom and daily life... We all need attention, but we also need our space without guilt..I’m going to dread sex if it has to be a 1-2 two hour session of bending, turning, squatting, etc...Sorry, TMI ...A little appreciation/ gratitude goes a long way if both partners are trying..

Life is more pleasant if sex can be fun and relaxing, without unreasonable expectations on frequency/ infrequency...

[This message edited by doggiediva at 10:33 AM, August 18th (Sunday)]

If your spouse is unable to meet your needs and those needs are a dealbreaker, you need to separate, full stop. Mindfulness of what is and isn't acceptable to you at any given time is paramount to long term happiness.

Unfortunately, people are largely cowards and status quo defenders by our very nature, and so the lack of needs meeting wears us down over time until somebody cheats or even just deeply resents the other person, which to me is a farce of a relationship.

True..

In my case, I was the one who called for the separation...After he blamed me for his cheating because I couldn’t meet his needs..

If a partner doesn’t want sex anymore, he/ she needs to be up front about it and offer the other partner a fair divorce..