SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I truly believe I was collateral and unintended damage. I truly believe my W thought her A would not affect me, at least at first.

This was enlightening to me on your views. While I have found your advice beneficial in many ways, I think our world views are fundamentally different. I come from a strong logical perspective, combined with a deep belief that an objective higher moral order (also called natural law in legal circles) exists in our universe.

When I combine logic and natural law, it becomes obvious that it simply doesn’t matter if a betrayed spouse was “unintended” damage or that “she thought” it wouldn’t affect me. These things are logically immaterial to whether adultery is a form of abuse.

It obviously is a form of abuse, and a toxic virus in any society, which is one reason it has been considered anathema in almost every single human society back as far as the written word was invented and likely for much longer than that.

Semantics or the motives of an adulterer or their good intentions (with which the road to hell is paved) do absolutely nothing to change that.

Legitimately, empirically, a betrayed is a victim. I don’t believe in making a betrayed feel bad (I.e. pathologizing the victim) just because almost every single betrayed on the planet understands instinctually that they are in fact the victims of abuse.

There’s nothing wrong with understanding that one has been a victim of adulterous abuse, and everything right about this insight that nearly every betrayed has. Doing otherwise would be like saying “well, she didn’t mean to plow you over with the car, even though she was being reckless and driving on the sidewalk and saw you strolling and minding your own business 100 yards away. She didn’t intend to hurt you, so you’re not the victim of a hit and run.”

Absurd.

I think it’s far healthier and much more in line with our natural human experience and modal intuition to acknowledge that yes it’s abuse, yes a betrayed is the victim of that abuse, and yes they can survive and heal from that abuse. That’s why this place is called Surviving Infidelity. That’s why Linda McDonald writes about adulterers needing to move from being destroyers to healers. The use of both terms implies directly that this is abuse.

Rather than playing word games, acknowledging that one is a victim of adulterous abuse is empowering because it copes with the real world using real words for real things. It doesn’t rob the victim of autonomy or the ability to heal or to overcome being victimized. Denying one is a victim, in my view, is just denying reality and that creates additional cognitive dissonance that is unhealthy.

Let’s acknowledge it is abuse. Let’s acknowledge that where abuse exists, a victim exists — no special new theories of mind or human relations are required, no need to parse language. Then, once that is acknowledged by both the perpetrator and the victim, people can decide for themselves what the rest of their lives will look like.

[This message edited by Thumos at 12:53 PM, September 15th (Sunday)]

The BS typically feels the WS doesn't understand and the WS feels the same but due to the BS not seeing how hard the WS is trying.

IF a WS was really trying, it would be obvious.

When we were courting our future partners, were they aware of what we were doing? We were trying to find a way into their heart. Acts of service, love, time spent together, intimate conversations - is was freaking obvious that we wanted a relationship with them.

So, why can't a WS do that same dance to win their BS back and help repair some of the damage they caused? It isn't as if it's hard... and yet, look at how many BS complain about WS disengaging, avoiding time together, and continued lies.

For my WW, I think the problem was/is pride and shame.

The reason I think the term abuser and its acceptance by many WS is because lots of WS were abused. When they use the word on themselves, they see how the Bs views them.

My grandfather was an abusive alcoholic who cheated on and beat my grandmother and terrorized the kids. My dad decided that abuse was bad and hurtful and never drank, never abused my mom and was very gentle with us kids. What is this magic formula that enabled him to not be an abuser?

Oh yeah, empathy. If you're abusing someone, you know it. You don't have to like the word "abuser", but it is what it is.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 5:02 PM, September 15th (Sunday)]

I don't think the term "collateral damage" means shit to make it better, really. Collateral damage means that they did not give a fuck about your life, your feelings, anything. It isn't passive damage. It is active damage. I hate the term. Being hurt by someone because you just don't count is simply abuse.

When we drop a bomb and kill a wedding party, we call it "collateral damage". You know, no big deal. Those weren't people and they didn't really die or anything. It's a language trick to reduce empathy and responsibility.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 5:08 PM, September 15th (Sunday)]

I don't think the term "collateral damage" means shit to make it better, really. Collateral damage means that they did not give a fuck about your life, your feelings, anything. It isn't passive damage. It is active damage. I hate the term. Being hurt by someone because you just don't count is simply abuse.

My WW KNEW what she was doing would shatter my world, and that it would likely end our marriage. She knew that, then with deliberate forethought she went ahead with her LTA anyway. Even to the extent of introducing OM to our kids and bringing him into our home and into our bed while I was away on business.

Cheating is a carefully considered choice. It's more than slapping your partner in a fit of anger - it's planning the assault in advance.

IF a WS was really trying, it would be obvious.

When we were courting our future partners, were they aware of what we were doing? We were trying to find a way into their heart. Acts of service, love, time spent together, intimate conversations - is was freaking obvious that we wanted a relationship with them.

So, why can't a WS do that same dance to win their BS back and help repair some of the damage they caused? It isn't as if it's hard... and yet, look at how many BS complain about WS disengaging, avoiding time together, and continued lies.

For my WW, I think the problem was/is pride and shame.

I agree with what you wrote here Nightmare. I can only add that at first, I felt like the things I was thinking if I said them outloud they would be insulting and unbelievable. For example, I wanted to tell him that I wouldn't do it again, that I loved him, and a lot of other assurances. But, in the face of the actions I had just finished, how could that be authentic? I had to get to a point that they were clarified for me. In some ways in retrospect, I think he was waiting to hear those things. But, I just couldn't find the vulnerability to do it even though I authentically thought them. I worked myself away from that, it took a lot of uncomfortable practice. It sounds like your wife just never made that leap. Shame and pride seems on the nose to me.

Cheating is a carefully considered choice. It's more than slapping your partner in a fit of anger - it's planning the assault in advance.

This may be true for your situation, I don't know. I think what Thumos said rings more true for mine. I did not realize how traumatizing the affair would be, and I shielded myself from considering it by telling myself he would never find out. These are straight out of the cheater's handbook, but I think they actually are the way things were for me. Any introspection was completely drowned out. I was numbing myself from everything, detached from self in many ways. But, it doesn't matter what the intention was the abuse still occurred. The trauma was still inflicted. Your statement just wasn't true for me and the bubble I was living in, but it doesn't matter the results were the same. I can't say that I would have ever thought abuse would have been a word that would have entered my mind at the time, but abuse, neglect, abandonment are still my crimes. It isn't that I didn't know it was wrong, more that the decisions were made with little evaluation past that.

HikingOut - thanks for the reply.

There was another aspect to the mess for me though, and maybe it's the same for other BS's.

It was her secrets... and me knowing something was off and that she was keeping secrets. It drove me insane. She knew what she was doing would destroy me, and she kept at it anyway. I lived for several years wondering WTH was going on, knowing that something was off and suspecting the affair but NOT wanting to believe it. I asked and begged for answers and got a smoke screen - in retrospect, really obvious lies, BUT I wanted to believe them, so I did. In a very real sense I betrayed myself.

In my case, I consider what my WW did an assault (above abuse). She knew my past and must have known what she was doing would destroy my soul, and yet she continued on - almost gleefully. This may sound harsh, so just know that I'm speaking only of MY case, no one else's. I consider her affair to be rape via proxy. She was vindictively letting OM screw me via her body. She was torturing me mentally, and abusing me physically.

On a better note, I've worked a lot on myself in the years since Dday. I've accomplished things that I'm proud of and feel good about myself maybe 70% of the time (which is a huge improvement). So things are good. WW and I are still together and we get along fine.

Nightmare - If I understand correctly, you are saying she trickle truthed you for an extended period of time? I do think trickle truth is proof of further manipulation and an extended period of abuse. So, I think if I am interpreting you correctly that is another really good point.

I have seen many BS's here say that the straw that broke the camel's back was more about the conduct after the affair than the affair itself. I could see how that would be an extended torture. After all, now you KNOW what is happening but you are still being kept in the dark. I can see how that would be it's own set of issues.

I benefited from being on this site a couple of months before confessing, so I knew not to do that. I was tempted to on some things though - BUT for myself and probably some of the masses - if I had chosen to lie it would have been about self preservation and not purposefully torturing him. I don't think most of us see it as extracting more pain from the BS, more we have a misguided belief that we are controlling the narrative and making ourselves seem better. TT ends up being the result of recognizing they are making it worse by not saying and coming clean on it. And, I am guessing that it's often just about the part they are being interrogated about. Once they are through that part of it, they are reluctant to tell during the next round, but can then see what it's doing. It takes several rounds of this for some. I am glad I resisted that, but I would have done the same thing had I not read everything I could get my hands on here, not because I was morally superior.

[This message edited by hikingout at 10:39 AM, September 16th (Monday)]

I could say more, but I don't want this thread to go off the rails. So, I'll just add that I could have handed physical abuse much better than the mental torture of gas-lighting, trickle-truth, and sudden memory loss of my WW.

It obviously is a form of abuse....

But it's not obvious to me. You're stating an opinion as fact. That's not logical.

...and a toxic virus in any society, which is one reason it has been considered anathema in almost every single human society....

Did you just switch from 'abuse' to 'adultery'?

All sorts of abuses are condoned by all sorts of societies. All sorts of abuses are the norm in all sorts of societies.

I am not arguing that adultery is anything but negative for a couple. I think it's worth considering that adultery has pretty much always been with us, and society continues. (Some of us think we're in an existential crisis WRT climate change, but I don't see how adultery affects that one way or another.)

I shared my opinion that adultery doesn't qualify as abuse in my worldview. I'm clearly in a minority. I'm OK with that. In fact, I think it's great that we have different opinions.

I've shared my experience that I was collateral damage. (BTW, my W got no points for not intending to hurt me.) It's simply not logical to argue that an experience someone shares is somehow wrong or not real.

I do think that many of us are collateral damage. An A is about the cheater(s). We hear again and again that at least some WSes simply don't consider their BSes when they start and maintain their As.

I come from a strong logical perspective, combined with a deep belief that an objective higher moral order (also called natural law in legal circles) exists in our universe.

Overall, your tone strikes me as more emotional than logical. After all, beliefs are themselves emotional. That's feedback, not criticism.

Logic does not treat pain. I suspect that's a fact.

Not recognizing when emotion impacts logic probably increases pain. That's opinion.

Being betrayed is traumatic. It brings with it immense amounts of grief, anger, fear, and shame. That's probably a fact.

Those feelings, IMO, probably generate immense numbers of negative thoughts about one's self. That's probably a fact.

If one is going to heal, one has to address the feelings and process them out of one's body. That's probably a fact.

Healing requires dealing with feelings.

[This message edited by sisoon at 5:26 PM, September 16th (Monday)]

I did not realize how traumatizing the affair would be, and I shielded myself from considering it by telling myself he would never find out.

If you shielded yourself, then wouldn't it be true that you did realize how traumatizing it would be? Maybe not the extent, however you knew it would be hurtful if he found out...otherwise you wouldn't hide it and you wouldn't have shielded yourself by telling lies to yourself to make yourself feel better to make a choice you knew was wrong???

I can see the "collateral damage" thing too. Though I truly believe I abused her. I know I chose to take risks based on her unconditional love. Certainly abuse for my definition. In the beginning my wife called it "emotional rape". As she healed though and used the situation to her advantage after having a deeper understanding of how it was about me, she would say she was a spectator splashed with shit at my epic meltdown of character. Collateral damage. Maybe those far out from Dday and healing with a working R in the marriage might see the whole thing differently like my wife and Sisoon. Though my wife is a very Christian person and I think that has a lot to do with how she views it now.

No I knew that it could end the marriage. I just had no idea it would be abuse/trauma. I knew he would be upset, but this is more of a statement about minimizing it to myself not claiming what I did wasn’t wrong.

For what it's worth, an easily-googlable national domestic violence organization defines these behaviors/actions as "abuse":

- Humiliating you in any way

- Blaming you for the abuse

- Gaslighting

- Accusing you of cheating and being often jealous of your outside relationships

- Serially cheating on you and then blaming you for his or her behavior

- Cheating on you intentionally to hurt you and then threatening to cheat again

- Cheating to prove that they are more desired, worthy, etc. than you are

- Forcing or manipulating you into to having sex or performing sexual acts

-Involving other people in sexual activities with you against your will

- Ignoring your feelings regarding sex

-Playing on the fact that you’re in a relationship, saying things such as: “Sex is the way to prove your love for me,” “If I don’t get sex from you I’ll get it somewhere else”

- Preventing you from viewing or having access to bank accounts

-Maxing out credit cards in your name without permission or not paying the bills on credit cards, which could ruin your credit score

- Stealing money from you or your family and friends

- Using funds from children’s savings accounts without your permission

I have seen all of this here in the stories of BS on SI in one way or another. Some more repeatedly than others.

Speaking personally, the BIG one was gaslighting. By far the most *abusive* thing that happened to me during my ex-WW's affair, and I can't stress enough how abusive and horrible this behavior can be to another person. To this day, I am triggered and re-traumatized periodically. I have every expectation that this abuse has rewired me for life to some degree, and I'm thankful that at least I have some language to tie to the behaviors and actions that helped put me in this place.

I'm not pretending here that this list is the *only* way one can be abusive to a partner, but I think this lends at least a little credibility to the idea that some affair behaviors are objectively defined as "abuse" outside of the opinions in this thread.

It also makes sense to me that some BS, while certainly unhappy and hurt, wouldn't necessarily feel "abused" -- and that's ok, too! If your affair experience, for example, is that your WS had a random one-night stand on a business trip, then fessed up to it completely, was remorseful, and there were no other secrets, well...you may have a different experience. For others, the months and years of having your mind and reality controlled by someone can do some pretty serious damage beyond just making you feel sad and bad.

FearfulAvoidance

Abusive or abuse is a word that I never thought would have been associated with me. That sends my mind into an even darker place. From listening to my BS, I am guilt stricken. The model I thought I was living was not true, Hearing how I made her feel is like a bullet to my heart. The thought that this was me is devastating. Its devastating to know that I put her through this, dealing with my pain and the infidelity just adds more shit on the bullshit mountain that I have built.

I wish I could have seen myself in this way the way that I see it now. yes, I do believe that infedility can be a from of abuse. I have a problem with that word, the problem is I have been abusive.

Years of seeing that from my parents and I said I would never be that way and yet here she is and here we are. WTF!!!!

Hi Ruined39,

It is devastating to realize we are not at all who we thought we were. Even more so to realize how truly far we can fall from that idea of self into the realm of abuser. It has taken me years to wrap my head around accepting that yes, I have abused my wife. Sadly, in multiple ways, even before the A. My picture of an abuser was always of physical violence, or verbally degrading screaming, or extreme psychological torture. That picture was never me. Up until a week ago, it was.

But abuse takes many forms and I couldn't let myself see that I was taking one. You can't see something until you can see it, right? Seeing it, accepting it, owning it, and taking responsibility for it is all you can do at this point aside from apologize. And make damn sure you do everything possible to ensure you never do it again.

For others, the months and years of having your mind and reality controlled by someone can do some pretty serious damage beyond just making you feel sad and bad.

ding ding ding.

I knew he would be upset,

Maybe look into that more. Is that really only what you thought. That he would be upset? If so, then I can see how you would only think I know this is wrong but it will not hurt. Yet, you state that you shielded yourself. From what? Him being upset? Doesn't seem like something that bad to shield yourself. IDK, I just see more there than that. Are you really honest with yourself the extent of knowing how much pain you were causing? Upset doesn't seem big enough for shielding and self lying.

Shielding - I was in denial. I literally shut down thoughts or exploration of it. It went beyond lying to myself it was completely avoiding thoughts about it. I just concentrated in getting away with it. I think the reason you don’t relate is your went on longer right? By the time I realized I was even having an affair, the ohysical happened, and there were a few weeks after that before it was over. If it was longer term maybe the avoiding would have been harder?

I thought he would be upset, the marriage might be over. But that’s the other difference with you and I- you were cake eating. I felt like I wanted out. You ask me this every time I describe it, but I think my state of mind was different than yours. I didn’t feel I had a lot to lose because I was done, it was easier to ignore a lot of stuff. . You have to also understand that I was diagnosed with emotional exhaustion around this time, my state of mind was not as clear as you understand it to be. I also spent very little time with my h during this time. That had been going in for months. It made it easier to shut out my thoughts about him.

That being said I certainly knew what I was doing was fucked up, but their was no plan. And no I didn’t know it was trauma. I basically went into obsessive behavior ove the AP and crowded my h out. I feel like these things make me the worst possible kind of cheater, so I am always amazed when you think Inam sugar coating it. There is no reason at this point not to own everything - this detail is no worse than all the others?

Also zug - don’t forget we once upon a time in our early years did some swinging/open relationship stuff. My h had seen me with other people and was never jealous but happy. It definitely lent me the idea that this would not be traumatizing. It’s not all cookie cutter.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:01 AM, September 18th (Wednesday)]