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I thought about this a bit more and I wondered if I was being defensive and why that would be. I didn't want to edit the other post because typically I only do that to clarify a sentence or correct a typo.

When I really think about what I was shielding myself from - it was mostly me. I didn't want to consider my own actions moreso than anything else. When I think about hiding it, it wasn't really to protect him, but to protect myself. I wanted to be able to get out of the marriage without anyone realizing that this had happened. I wanted to save face and I wanted the secret to go to my grave.

But, one of the aspects of emotional exhaustion is that you are numb. I was numb to the place I was callous. I really didn't consider my husband or how he would feel very seriously at all. I saw someone post here the other day that they were on meds to the point they couldn't feel anything towards their husband and children. I wasn't on meds, but my emotions were very numbed anyway to the point that I was heartless in most aspects. The therapist said that the extreme behavior of the affair made me feel something - she feels that I was panicking that I couldn't feel something and when I did I placed more importance on it than I would have normally. I don't know if that is true, it's a lot of psychology that I don't have a firm grasp on. She said letting go of the AP was making me feel like I had to go back to feeling nothing again and that's why I couldn't let go of him. That part makes sense to me, because I knew logically I didn't want him, and it falls into line with what others say and I believe to be true about missing just the affair feelings. When I did regain touch with myself emotionally, it was extremely painful and raw. But all of this was so much about me and so not about either the AP or H.

BUT - I can see that none of that matters - it was abuse & pure abandonment and neglect. I can take full accountability for that, which is why I don't spend a lot of time talking about what the emotional exhaustion added to the situation.

That's why I said I was the worst kind of cheater.

my emotions were very numbed anyway to the point that I was heartless in most aspects. The therapist said that the extreme behavior of the affair made me feel something - she feels that I was panicking that I couldn't something

I've had therapists tell me something similar as my A occurred directly following a great loss in my sense of understanding of the Universe after traumatic life events. There is something missing in that though, I think. It sounds too simple, just as my initial reasoning of desperately needing to escape the pain that was my life at that time.

Can you expand on what made you heartless?

I wish I could, I can't quite understand it myself. I will try.

For about 18 months prior to the A, I was working 18 hour days 6-7 days a week. I had a full time job, was helping with my husband's business, we still had a senior in highschool who had a lot of events to attend and dresses to buy for. I ran the house solely myself because my H was working very hard on our business.

For about 6-8 of those last months I was not doing very well. I was dropping the ball on things a lot, forgetting things, and it felt like I was failing in about every aspect of my life. I was failing my kid who I had very little precious time with, I was not doing as well at work, and my H was constantly saying "why hasn't this been done, or this or this or this". It wasn't that he was mean or insensitive, it was more he knew me nothing but competent and felt like I was just not caring about getting those things done any more. We were disconnected, other than sex and having meals together or running occasional joint errands we were apart.

I thought I could handle it. I wanted to handle it. In the few months prior to the affair I started telling him something had to give. Our daughter was graduating and I was feeling like I was missing the most precious last drops of parenthood. (This was giving me an empty nest - which I put a lot of myself into the kids and this was a crisis on its own that I am not sure I could even write something that gives justice to it) He kept saying "We are almost there, this is going to give us freedoms we have never had, the kids are gone and we can retire early, etc. We just have to suck it up a little longer". I was having crying fits, I was exhausted physically and mentally but he didn't understand. I am conflict avoidant anyway and I didn't really try that hard to get him to see it either. I didn't protect my time or boundaries, I just assumed he was right and that I just needed to want it a little more and make it all happen.

I was super wrong. By the time the affair happened I was really questioning if I was cut out for marriage. I wanted a simpler life, and I wanted to rest. I didn't want the level of responsibilities I had any more. And, I had relied on being superwoman to my kids and to him all our time together in order to prove my worth. I felt like I was worthless. I didn't realize that they all loved me for me, not for what I did for them. I just had reached enough. I guess the exhaustion made me disconnect with a lot of my feelings. I believe Brene Brown when she says you can't numb the bad feelings without numbing the good. I guess I had gotten on such a numbing trajectory in order to cope that I couldn't feel anything anymore.

And, I blamed him for all of that. I wanted out. I didn't care about much at all any more. I don't know if this can make sense to anyone, but it was an unbearable escalation that I brought on myself by not just saying "No more, we have to do something different now".

That's why I said I was the worst kind of cheater.

Is it really though? I think we all are. I am a cake eater. Not really nice either. I chose to hurt my wife knowing I was hurting her. Knowing full well er past with a ton of childhood abuse and trauma. I chose to take her for granted and I chose to take advantage of a good person. Knowing full well the APs meant jack shit. Knowing full well that I was risking my marriage yet banking on the good moral Christian woman my wife was to not leave no matter what I chose to do to her. Then we have men that cheat on their pregnant wives and abandon them. I really don't think you are the worse, but we all believe individually if we are truly remorseful that we are. Thank you for clarifying the shielding thing. That makes more sense.

Hikingout - so you are saying that you being heartless was about the numbness in your own heart, not about how you were treating your BS? I'm sure it is chronicled somewhere, but how did you outwardly treat your BS during your affair?

I ask because I did not treat my BS well at all during my A. I was cruel and spoke to her in ways that would be considered abusive even had I not been abusing her through infidelity already. It is my understanding that this is not typical for those WS who take their As underground in an attempt to cake eat.

I want to hear more from the WS in how they understand their actions to be abusive, even if they weren't being outwardly cruel. It is difficult for me to differentiate sometimes because I was so mean, and many WS are not. Many actually treat their BS better while cheating before Dday, and yet it is clearly still abusive. Can other WS help me wade through this?

Yes, that's exactly what I am saying.

There are a lot of factors that go into the experience of infidelity - length of affair can make a difference I believe on stages that get hit or not hit. I think I would have eventually gotten more distant and possibly not treated H very well had the affair gone on long term. It might have been starting a little at the end. Cognitive dissonance grows I think the longer you are in the affair.

I didn't do a lot of the things that are pointed out here - I didn't gaslight, or mistreat BS outwardly. But I feel I abandoned him, neglected him, and I took away his security. That is where I attribute the abuse.

My heartlessness was numbing my own feelings, yes. Inside I just didn't care what happened. I hid more I think to save face rather than saving anything. I knew what I was doing was wrong. But, I was heartless in I had already abandoned H and the marriage. I don't know if that helps what you are asking?

I didn't do a lot of the things that are pointed out here - I didn't gaslight, or mistreat BS outwardly.

Hikingout, I am curious about your opinion — and other WS’s here who didn’t do any significant gaslighting — about WW’s who did gaslight significantly and treated their BH’s with cruelty.

It is something I struggle with, in addition to the sexual betrayal in our home.

[This message edited by Thumos at 3:36 PM, September 20th (Friday)]

Thumos, I appreciate why you want to know the answer to that, but before I try to answer, I'll explain why I think it's a problematic question to ask a WS.

Most waywards (absolutely including me) try to minimize what we did by focusing on what we didn't do. I had a serious case of "at least I" when I arrived here. At least I confessed before I got caught, at least I admitted the sex right away, at least I never broke NC, etc etc. So it's very tempting to "otherize" the WS who were deliberately cruel in their language and non-cheating actions and to say, "How could they do that? I can't understand it/I would never do it/they were broken in a way that I was not." So I'm going to avoid making any moral judgments in my response, not by way of defending or excusing cruelty, but to check that tendency to diminish my own actions in comparison.

I believe there is a chapter in "Not Just Friends" that addresses the difference between the compartmentalizer and the "monogamous infidel." I don't have the book with me, so I'll summarize my memory of it and apologize in advance if I get it wrong. IIIRC, it argued that those who compartmentalize are capable of dividing their emotions and loyalties between multiple partners. They believe they're loving more than one person, and their behavior towards the betrayed partner does not change during the affair. The monogamous infidel can only love one person at a time without feeling guilt and dissonance. They resolve that disloyalty by finding excuses to vilify their current partner, in an effort to separate and focus on the new partner.

When I read about previously uncharacteristic cruelty from a WS, I surmise that it's the latter case at work. It makes sense to me, to the extent that any cheating behavior makes sense.

I need to reread that brave sir robin - I was so foggy when I read it the first time. I forgot about those concepts. Interestingly I think I was the monogamists infidel (I consider my affair to have been exit)

But to explain that and possibly answer thumos’s question- I wasn’t above using those behaviors in theory. My affair was over pretty fast in comparison and I think behavior escalates over a period of time due to cognitive dissonance getting stronger. I think if h would have asked me I don’t think I would have gaslighted him because I wanted out and also I am a really bad liar. I would have just confessed at that point, I had numbed myself to being hard enough to not care a lot. That’s what I am ashamed to say in the light I see it in now. My affair consisted of lies by omission. It was long distance so I didn’t have to sneak around and say I was here when I was really there. I was mostly hiding it because I wanted to get out without that kind of explanation, I wanted to point at the pre affair issues as the reasons why. And if I am honest, even as heartless as I was feeling, I think part of me was really confused and undecided so there was some cake eating in there I am sure but a smaller part of that than the just feeling done and wanting out.

I can’t put myself in a different moral footing than any other ws here as BSR has already explained. I only said what I did because without those behaviors I still believe what I did was abusive. But I believe for a lot of ws the gaslighting and the villianizing is more a part of the ws justifying and deflecting rather than trying to be malicious. The results are the same though. You might not intend to shoot someone but if you do they are just as dead.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:58 PM, September 22nd (Sunday)]

IMO the lies and deceit that go into an A are, in and of themselves, "gaslighting" . Maybe we all have different definitions for the term, but my understanding is that it's about the manipulation of one's perception of reality that, in turn, may cause the recipient to question their sanity. So, having an A is manipulating a BS' reality to, at a minimum, thinking they are in a monogamous relationship - to believe their reality includes a faithful spouse.

My WH's deceit was predominantly (tho not completely) lies of omission. I feel 1000% gaslight. I was completely manipulated to believe the reality of my M included fidelity. I made decisions for myself based upon that reality. When the truth came to light, I absolutely questioned my sanity.

Lies by omission are just as manipulative as outright lies - and the results are the same.

Anyhow, this was my reaction to these recent posts.

Interesting, gmc. I understand gaslighting to be different from the kind of lying you describe. It's not so much creating an illusion that pulls the rug out from you after the fact as telling a lie that makes you doubt the evidence of your senses in real time. Like, "You didn't see me on the phone in the bathroom. I was in the kitchen making a sandwich. You were right there, you even handed me the cheese, remember? Sweetheart, have you been having any other hallucinations?" It's fucking with the victim's head from a very specific angle.

ETA: I'm absolutely not trying to diminish the trauma inflicted by any kind of lie. This is just a clarification of what I believe the dictionary definition to be.

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 6:48 PM, September 22nd (Sunday)]

BraveSIrRobin - you are correct on the definition of gaslighting. It is literally refuting direct confrontation, so lies by omission can not be gaslighting.

Gaslighting is a form of psychological manipulation in which a person seeks to sow seeds of doubt in a targeted individual or in members of a targeted group, making them question their own memory, perception, and sanity.

In order to gaslight, you have to address the target's perception and memory directly.

Lies by omission are still abusive specifically in adultery because of the results of those lies.

It's not so much creating an illusion that pulls the rug out from you after the fact as telling a lie that makes you doubt the evidence of your senses in real time.

lies by omission can not be gaslighting.

I think it's true that the term 'gaslighting' does tend to get distorted here from time to time, though I would argue that 'lying by omission' can absolutely be a part of that pattern. And BraveSirRobin's edit is apt; lying still has a great potential for traumatizing someone regardless of how we define it.

When I synthesize the various definitions of 'gaslighting' I can find on the Internet, I can't help but come to this conclusion: at the end of the day, it's pattern over time of a variety of types of 'lying' with the purpose of making someone (in our case, the BS) believe some sort of alternate reality. That can look like *so* many things, but it's a pattern, and it's with a purpose.

Some common, highly-generalized examples, I think:

1) WS gets you to believe they are in one place when they are in another (ex: "I'm going to be in a late meeting in the city today; can you pick up the kids and take care of dinner/bedtime?")

2) WS gets you to believe they are doing things that they are *not* doing (or not doing things they *are* doing) (ex: "Sorry, I can't meet you for lunch; I have this huge report to finish by 3:00!")

3) WS gets you to believe that they are doing things for reasons *other than* what are true (ex: "Can you believe my boss asked me to move my office to AP's wing of the building?? She says it's part of a whole company restructuring thing. Ugh, guess I'll start packing up my things!"

4) WS compels *you* to do things that are based on reasons/information that is not true (ex: "Hey, why don't you head to hunting camp this weekend? It would be great for you to have some time for yourself, and you may not have another chance this year.")

5) WS gets you to believe that they are having conversations with people or spending time with people they are *not* (changing contact info in phone, etc.)

There are probably so many other examples, but in my opinion, living your life with just these 5 things happening to you over time will drastically alter your perception of reality in just a few weeks/months. The longer it goes, the worse it is. If/when it all comes crashing down, and BS suddenly realizes that perhaps hundreds or thousands of little things they thought were true, and were impetuses for *their own* life choices, are actually NOT true...then BS will be traumatized.

It's so common, especially with the saturated, over-use of the term in pop culture, to want to respond to claims of 'gaslighting' with "that's just lying!" But I really believe it's more about the pattern, the intent, and how the lies cause BS to alter their life-course that makes it 'gaslighting,' (and, in turn, abusive).

My $0.02.

If/when it all comes crashing down, and BS suddenly realizes that perhaps hundreds or thousands of little things they thought were true, and were impetuses for *their own* life choices, are actually NOT true...then BS will be traumatized. [....]

I really believe it's more about the pattern, the intent, and how the lies cause BS to alter their life-course that makes it 'gaslighting,' (and, in turn, abusive).

I think these are really important distinctions, the pattern and the intent. Whatever the motivation to lie the overall intent is to keep the BS from knowing the truth. This absolutely influences their reality to which they will make life decisions on.

I am finally understanding what it means to take away another person's choice.

Over the past 2 years I have watched my BS attempt to piece her reality back together during the 6 months of my A. In not giving her all the details, she had stitched together a reality that I made more palatable to her. Rather, that made ME more palatable to her. Over the past 2 weeks I have ripped those stitches out and replaced them with the ugly truth about the person she chose to spend her life with, and now she is once again trying to put her reality back together from the 5 different realities I have presented to her about my A.

And not just over 6 months, but over the entirety of our almost 13 year relationship. In this quest for authenticity I realized there were things she needed to know from years ago. I might not have cheated on her before, but I was still lying about things I knew would hurt her.

This woman made a conscious choice to marry me 6 years ago based on the reality she understood to be true. She made the very conscious and intentional choice to offer me R 2 years ago, based on the reality she understood to be true. I constructed those realities. It doesn't matter that I had no malicious intent and was trying to protect everybody, it was gaslighting, and it was abuse.

I will reiterate what I said above first.

I can’t put myself in a different moral footing than any other ws here as BSR has already explained. I only said what I did because without those behaviors I still believe what I did was abusive. But I believe for a lot of ws the gaslighting and the villianizing is more a part of the ws justifying and deflecting rather than trying to be malicious. The results are the same though. You might not intend to shoot someone but if you do they are just as dead.

But in terms of the things below, none of these were part of my affair:

1) WS gets you to believe they are in one place when they are in another (ex: "I'm going to be in a late meeting in the city today; can you pick up the kids and take care of dinner/bedtime?")

2) WS gets you to believe they are doing things that they are *not* doing (or not doing things they *are* doing) (ex: "Sorry, I can't meet you for lunch; I have this huge report to finish by 3:00!")

3) WS gets you to believe that they are doing things for reasons *other than* what are true (ex: "Can you believe my boss asked me to move my office to AP's wing of the building?? She says it's part of a whole company restructuring thing. Ugh, guess I'll start packing up my things!"

4) WS compels *you* to do things that are based on reasons/information that is not true (ex: "Hey, why don't you head to hunting camp this weekend? It would be great for you to have some time for yourself, and you may not have another chance this year.")

5) WS gets you to believe that they are having conversations with people or spending time with people they are *not* (changing contact info in phone, etc.)

It doesn't make it better, I still lied by omission, I still had an affair, and it was still abuse. But, I don't fit this broader example of gaslighting either. During my affair, I mostly talked to AP at work or when my husband was away. I never snuck off to meet him, he lived hundreds of miles away.

I am only stating this because I said above I didn't gaslight. But, I do take the same accountability as it doesn't matter if these things happened or not. I think a drunken ONS is abuse. So, you don't need these broad lists of what qualifies, every BS on this site was abused and every WS was an abuser.

This woman made a conscious choice to marry me 6 years ago based on the reality she understood to be true. She made the very conscious and intentional choice to offer me R 2 years ago, based on the reality she understood to be true. I constructed those realities. It doesn't matter that I had no malicious intent and was trying to protect everybody, it was gaslighting, and it was abuse.

I think what FA and okokok said is very pertinent. Maybe the problem isn't so much the term "gaslighting" as it is that the definition is too narrow. Maybe it would be better to say "acute gaslighting" vs "chronic gaslighting".

Acute gaslighting would fit what BSR said in her example. Chronic gaslighting would fit more what FA said in above quote.

Because let me tell you as a BS, I don't care if it didn't fit the 'textbook' definition, what was done to me absolutely made me doubt my reality, memory, perception, and sanity for the last 6 years.