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Perhaps his mum doesn’t trust your mum and thinks she will influence you to take him for more than is fair . . . or he just wanted reassurance from you that you won’t do that.

NO. Do not contact him to tell him he was out of line, etc. Simply live it. Don’t let it happen again. Telling someone something is just words that they may, or may not, hear and believe. Living it, however, shows them in no uncertain terms.

Don’t reassure him regarding what your plans are, or aren’t. Don’t give him insight into you, or your plans. The exercise that came from OW? For all we know it was for her benefit - who knows.

Yes NC means NC. That is what I shall do. All these thoughts and feelings are aligned with yours but it is hard to make things clear when u are in the storm. I am NC for my own health and healing. I tried NC previously but it was too early and I wasn’t ready or doing it for the right reason. However, since realising that being around him was actually causing me further pain I implemented NC again and soon saw the positive impact it had on me. It’s a no brainer really because it allows you to have healing space and prepares you for what is to come. The future, the me and DD and what we want and aspire to achieve moving forward and he can’t be apart of that because he’s not the man I fell in love with and he is broken and toxic to me.

The feelings of OMG that I get aren’t for him anymore, they’re for the unknown and uncertainty this situation brings. Loss of what was going to be. But I’m trying to adapt to that and be almost more open minded to it. Well my life was planned out a certain way but not anymore and who’s to say that the new path isn’t better. In actually fact it’s got to be better because it’s without him and his OW.

With regards to my mum influencing my choices on finances. Well that’s none of their business and let’s not forget who has caused this and who we all shouldn’t trust now. If they have negative attitudes towards her then maybe they should take a look at themselves!

Oh and by the way the reflective piece he sent me and suggested I did was something the OW sent him. WTF!!! Not that I ever considered doing it but what is actually in his head anymore?! He’s lost the plot. This OW is almost brain washing him.

I had wondered about that and almost posted to ask you about it, but I was running out the door at the time and figured there wasn't any good way for you to find out. Turns out your WH is too deep in la-la land to understand the optics of letting you know he's OW's sock puppet.

This isn't unusual though. OWs don't like to think of themselves as homewreckers, so they make all sorts of soothing noises to the married man about how they just want to do all they can to smooth the transition for the betrayed wife and make a great show of how empathetic they are to her pain.

This is part of the "pick me dance" that the OW will have to do for the entirety of the relationship. Once she's won her dubious prize, she's stuck, having painted herself out to be this wonderfully understanding and emotionally supportive person. Imagine how old that's going to get once the dust has settled, particularly for someone who's immoral and self-centered enough to poach in someone else's marriage.

Before you start feeling sorry for your WH though, understand that he isn't an unsuspecting victim. Yeah, he's going to be surprised when the OW can't keep the facade going, but cheaters KNOW they're doing wrong. It's why they hide it for as long as they do. This idiot thinks he can have it all... new romance with the OW (who's dancing her ass off) and a supportive ex-wife, who still cares about him and welcomes him into the family fold on HIS terms (read when it's convenient to him). Look at the fuss he's making already that you're not cuddly with his mom just now. And when you didn't cooperate immediately with OW's "conscious uncoupling" exercise, he toddled on over to apply charm.

NC isn't the same as the 180. NC means putting this guy out of your life. But because you have a child to consider, you'd be wise to see an attorney, get a parenting plan WITH A MORALITY CLAUSE in writing, put him on a parenting app, and allow no more verbal communications, just emails. That way, you can ignore anything and everything which doesn't concern parenting your daughter or achieving your legal freedom. He won't like it, but that's too bad. NC is for you, so you can move on with your life without this guy needling you at every turn.

((big hugs)) You've got this.

ETA:

He pointed out that his mum was upset that I had appeared to have dumped her and wasn’t seeking any emotional support from her. He said that she doesn’t trust my mum and she may influence my decision to take him to the cleaners.

He just told you what he's worried about. Cheaters aren't as clever as they think they are. When you pick discerningly through all the word salad, you find little gems like that one more often than you'd think. I very much doubt that his mother is as worried about the financial consequences of walking out on one's wife and child as HE is. Blaming that concern on someone else though so he can get your confirmation that all is well, that he's keeping you sweet through the discard, is worth the expenditure of a little charm and a home visit.

Remember that the OW, even while presenting the perfect picture of empathetic concern, is most likely terrified of you, worried that he'll change his mind. Him spending one-on-one time with you, despite upsetting her (if she knows) shows you how important it is to him that you not "take him to the cleaners". And if she knows, she's upping her kibble production to keep up. Bonus. Triangulation is the fuel which keeps affairs exciting. So, while it's a fun exercise to think about ways you can make her ass uncomfortable, bear in mind that triangular drama energizes the affair, so NC is still your friend here.

Do "take him to the cleaners" though. Get as much as you can for you and your child. Whatever you leave him, he'll spend on the OW. I'm sure you will make MUCH better use of it than she will.

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 8:46 AM, September 15th (Sunday)]

It’s so difficult. You’re put in this position and don’t know where to turn. I feel so out of control at times. I have spent the whole day dwelling on our conversation last nights and have thought he doesn’t give a shit about me or DD. It’s so dangerous seeing someone you know knowingly doing erratic and irrational behaviours. I am unable to switch off from the complete turmoil that is now my life. I am sometimes unable to enjoy any aspects of my day due to him. However, it appears I’ve made him feel better now (don’t know this but paranoia tells me) and he’s off skipping to her. Which in turn, will improve their relationship for the time being. But then I ask myself, why am I bothered? I need him out of my life and what sh*t he now carries. Contact will be dictated to what I want it to me. About DD only and I inform him she is ok. Other than that he doesn’t contact me! I can’t be doing with him in my life anymore.

His visit confirmed for him that he can show up at any time and still have a pleasant conversation with you, plus, as CamomileTea pointed out, you somewhat dissipated his worries over financial issues for the time being, hence the improved mood.

Do you live in a matrimonial house and he has a right to come any time? If you can legally keep him out of your life and house, stay NC. It will make your life so much easier.

The feelings of OMG that I get aren’t for him anymore, they’re for the unknown and uncertainty this situation brings. Loss of what was going to be. But I’m trying to adapt to that and be almost more open minded to it. Well my life was planned out a certain way but not anymore and who’s to say that the new path isn’t better. In actually fact it’s got to be better because it’s without him and his OW.

This ^^^ is a great approach, you absolutely get it. Stay focused on healing yourself and keep NC at all cost.

Yeah I’m still in the matrimonial home and have sought legal advice. Can’t change the locks or stop him coming in. The house will be on the market very soon and will hopefully sell quickly. So I will soon be in my own home or my parents, where he can’t walk in or have access to me at any opportunity. Going NC has made him paranoid about my possible actions around finances. I worry about this, but then think that I will do what is fair so no need to worry. But hello, who has done all this?!

He’s told our friend that the OW is moody and argumentative. FFS what the hell is he doing?! Why can he be arsed? I wouldn’t leave my whole life for a manipulative, moody and argumentative person. And all these negatives so early on! Three things he can’t say about me. He certainly has picked the complete opposite of me.

I have had such a bad day today. Constantly dwelling on things and feeling out of control. I’ve spent the day with family and contacted friends for reassurance. I want to enjoy my life and the people that matter to me now. This forum and my IC have been life savers. I re read posts and revisit the healing library a lot to keep me on track.

Ego. Your CH has an ego. And his ego and pride may very well prevent him from ever leaving the OW or admitting this affair is a mistake. At least to you.

Even if you D and are no longer together, he may keep up the facade of “happily ever after” with her. He may choose that path than look like a fool. At least in front of you.

I’ve seen it happen. Trust me you have no idea what goes on in his mind. You only know what you see. He’s complaining about the OW? Poor baby isn’t so happy? ROFLMAO

I guess the karma bus hit him sooner than he expected.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 5:41 AM, September 16th (Monday)]

But where does that put me the1stwife? I had seriously thought about him not admitting his wrong doing. He is extremely stubborn but also very selfish. So it wouldn’t surprise me that he would shatter someone’s life (mine already) in the future to seek happiness or something that will soothe his wounds.

I am in absolute turmoil today. I feel like I am right back at the start again. It hurts so much to be in contact with him but hurts just as much not being. I don’t know how I am going to cope living in the house until it sells. I just want to run away and run fast. My thoughts are so manic at times I feel like I’m spiralling out of control and in the middle of all this is my gorgeous DD who deserves stability and a mummy who is emotionally there for her. Which at times I don’t feel like I am. I can become obsessed with reading about things and am distracted all he time with the thoughts in my head. I’m seeing IC weekly have loads of friends and family, have SI supporting me but I feel it’s not enough at times. I feel in a complete mess and don’t even know what to do first to sort it all out. How can he acknowledge to our friend that he has turned our world upside but not to me?! I feel like he is saying every word other than ‘I regret what I’ve done’. It’s almost like he is unable to turn back for whatever reason. Maybe because he doesn’t trust his OW ruining his career.

He now notices me...what I’m wearing, nail varnish, perfume. Why would he do this?

Sweet girl - your last post broke my heart to read.

We have all been in that horrible place of confusion and suffering when absolutely nothing makes sense.

You have got to just walk away from the mindfuck, honey. There is no way to figure this out. It is not worth your time or mental energy to wrestle with this absurdity.

He is deploying every manipulative tool available. And always remember, he is an exquisite liar so nothing he says can be trusted.

Everything he is doing now is to control outcomes. Outcomes, sweetie, he wants positive outcomes.

The weeping to your mutual friends = outcomes.

His mother's declarations = outcomes.

Heart-to-heart w/you = outcomes.

He cannot be trusted. He is counting on your continued investment. Is the OW a grumpy bitch? He wants to make sure you hear that. Anything to muddle an already multi-muddled mess.

Your strength is scaring the shit out of him now. He is realizing that he vastly underestimated you.

Do not succumb to the his flailing. Do not let it disrupt your clarity.

You are amazing. You are an inspiration. You have an awesome life waiting for you on the other side.

^^^^^^^^Exactly what she said. Self-Rescuer is spot on. He knows you so well, he knows exactly what will work with you. And when you won't hear if from him directly because of your attempts at NC, he feeds it to someone who will feed you.

My EX made me dinner on Valentines Day and said he made a horrible mistake and wanted me back. It would just take time to extricate himself from OW. It took less than a week for him to admit he only said that to get a better settlement deal in the divorce. It ripped me apart yet another time.

You eventually learn to stop touching the stove, because you are going to get burned.

Wobbles are to be expected. They are unfortunately part of the territory, so please no matter what go easy on yourself. Notice how his coming to sit and have a little chat with you has affected your state of mind and state of being. He left feeling lighter, but you are left in turmoil. His intentions are only to boost his own ego and alleviate his bad feelings for what he's done. His sorry little feelings of regret have way more to do with feeling bad that things did not go smoothly. He knows he hurt you and your DD, but he feels bad for himself. He is certainly not remorseful. He cares only about himself and his feelings. Just look at his behavior so far. It's all there. Doesn't matter what he says, actions are where it counts. His actions are all about him and his ridiculous AP. He is seeking pity because that's all he has to offer: self pity.

You said that staying in the house until it sells is unbearable. You also mentioned possibly moving in with your parents once the house sells. Is there any way you might consider staying with your parents now, while the house sells? You wouldn't have to worry about him entering your private space. It may give you back some peace of mind and help you stay as NC as possible.

Remember no matter where you find yourself on this roller coaster from hell that your strength, character, and values are always with you. When you're not feeling it, keep reaching out like you've been doing and remember that there are going to be many ups and downs. It's the nature of this ordeal unfortunately. It is hell, but you are not alone in this and you will make it to the other side.

It is hell. I’ve never experienced anything like it and hope I never do again. One of my close friends has lost her dad and she can see in me what she has been through but said it is almost worse because he’s still around to play with my head. I have been NC again since sat when we spoke. Which I can see helps a lot. I can also see the turmoil I am in since talking to him and him seeking support from our mutual friend. I never had him down as so calculating but like you’ve said, nothing can be trusted now.

I could move into my parents at any time and feel this pull more and more as the weeks go on. I feel like I need to float for a while and have people around me constantly to heal. But I didn’t really want him to come back in the house. But is the unhappiness worth enduring for that risk?! I am thinking to just stay there as much as I can without impacting DD too much.

I feel like I am waiting for his world to fall apart so he can feel half of what I feel right now.

I speak to so many friends and family who are flabbergasted with what’s happening. I’ve read within the healing library that if your marriage didn’t have any signs of falling apart or unhappiness it is the hardest experience to deal with. You are completely off guard and how do you ever trust your intuition again?

Hey NB,

He's managed to do what he set out to do, confuse you. Bringing you more heartache, he hasn't said all of this to you as he would have to say it while looking into your eyes, You would therefore be able to tell if he's lying, remember its just words not actions.

His actions are showing you the man he is.

He's still trying to be the 'good guy' when you know in your heart he's anything but.

You have to do whats right for you, be it standing firm with strength & determination or letting him control which direction this goes.

He sounds very calculated & manipulative, Knowing who will send messages back to have the greatest impact.

NB This is why its called a rollercoaster, up & down round & round,

only you can decide when its derailed.

((((hugs))))

Also don't waste your time waiting for his world to fall apart,

Clearly it didn't happen when he packed his bags (leaving the marital home) to give the OW the green light while leaving you & your DD heartbroken, I'm sorry to say its unlikely it'll happen now.

Honestly to me it sounds like he’s playing you. He’s concerned about himself and his future.

Why even bring up the thing about “Taking him to the cleaners”? How self absorbed. For reference, it’s not easy to take everything. You don’t have to sit around waiting for an offer with what he feels is fair. How much do you want to bet it’ll be way less than you are entitled to? Courts don’t let one party walk away with everything. They try to distribute assets evenly and award support where it is warranted. Why should you get less?

The best way to knock him back to reality (as much as possible while he’s with OW anyway) would be to consult a lawyer, find out what you are legally entitled to, and serve him with divorce papers. Don’t settle for less than what you SHOULD get. I bet that will shake him up.

I’m not saying this to as something vindictive. It will allow you to move on with a solid plan. You will have a clearer view of finances and you will start to untangle yourself from him on paper. Why not? It’s what he wants right?

I could move into my parents at any time and feel this pull more and more as the weeks go on. I feel like I need to float for a while and have people around me constantly to heal. But I didn’t really want him to come back in the house. But is the unhappiness worth enduring for that risk?! I am thinking to just stay there as much as I can without impacting DD too much.

I think that's a good plan. If you leave the home, there's nothing stopping him from moving back in and perhaps bringing the OW with him. You'll also be able to give a better accounting of your monthly expenses for your settlement. Not only might you spend more time visiting at your parents place, you might also invite friends or family members to stay with you more frequently.

If you haven't seen an attorney and filed yet, you might consider it. It may feel early to you, but consequences are the most effective way to interfere with the affair fantasy. I can't tell you how often we see hesitancy on the part of the BS allow the cheater to take his time and comfortably ease his way out at his own pace. If there's any chance for that affair bubble to pop, it's usually when the WS starts seeing how much he's losing. They have it all worked out in their head how they imagine things will be, you see? A new romantic partner, a supportive and caring ex, blended families who all get on, etc. When you start showing him stark contrast between the fantasy and reality, you introduce uncertainty.

Remember that cheaters don't typically have enough self-awareness to identify their own manipulations and bullshit. It all feels very real and natural to them. Some snap out of it, some don't. And whether they do or not, it's always okay for you to just be done. No cheater is owed a second chance. They know fully well what they're risking before they risk it.

Yeah I’ve been and sought legal advice and know what I am entitled to. I think I’m stupid to think he actually cares anymore. Like you said he only cares about his own future. He’s caused massive devastation and is completely oblivious to it all. But then appears to have crocodile tears all of a sudden to me and our friend. He sat throughout MC crying but is still hell bent on ruining mine and DD’s life.

Think I might seriously consider moving back in with my parents. It feels like I’m running away but I haven’t got the strength to sort through the sh*t he has caused. I have spent the last 3 months trying to navigate this and still don’t feel any further forward. It’s interesting that he’s telling our friend the negatives about his OW. Why he wouldn’t portray her as fantastic, I don’t know. Makes him look more like a twit if he’s leaving for a psycho. Apparently our friend asked him what did he expect?!

I am going to suggest seeing a solicitor and starting divorce proceedings. I need closure on all of this. The limbo is debilitating at times. I don’t even know where the last 3 months have gone. I don’t think July and August even happened did they? I’m surviving and nothing else at present. I’m trying to fill y time with fun but it’s so hard when your mind is so manic and traumatised.

I feel like I am waiting for his world to fall apart so he can feel half of what I feel right now.

Agree with BBEyes not to wait around. Refocus on taking good care of yourself and your DD as you are weathering this terrible storm. Try to detach as best as you can. This is much easier said than done. It is a process. Time, support, and self-care (which includes NC) are going to help in getting you through this.

I speak to so many friends and family who are flabbergasted with what’s happening. I’ve read within the healing library that if your marriage didn’t have any signs of falling apart or unhappiness it is the hardest experience to deal with. You are completely off guard and how do you ever trust your intuition again?

Yes, this is true in mine and I think in many others' experiences. You were completely blindsided by something that has been going on for some time under your radar. But his deception has no reflection on you because we are wired to bond and trust our significant others. Cheating and deception are the manifestations of a major character flaw, a broken person. It's not normal to deceive your loved ones and destroy them in the process. Trust and emotional security are normal and they are what healthy people contribute and receive in loving relationships. His actions have everything to do with him and nothing to do with you, but sadly we BSs have to deal with the emotional and practical fallout from the horrendous choices stemming from a bad character flaw.

Your intuition is not at fault here, but I vividly remember feeling that way too, like how am I ever going to trust myself again?? But that feeling of self-trust is coming back and at times seems even stronger than before. You have been knocked down, knocked off balance, and you will question yourself. It may help to remember that questioning yourself is a very normal reaction to trauma. Although it doesn't make the pain go away, it can help you see this as part of a larger process.

Going through betrayal and infidelity amounts to grief but it's a whole different animal than going through the death of a loved one. It's necessary to grieve both kinds of loss, and your friend is right that because your WP is still around it really complicates things. On top of that, the very one you'd normally turn to for safety and comfort is the one that inflicted all this destruction and pain in the first place. It is truly mind blowing and highly disorienting in many ways.

You will begin to feel more grounded in yourself as time marches on and as you work on getting your bearings, processing, and healing. It's a lot to deal with. It's a very tall order, and it takes time. You will regain everything and more, but you will lose what was not right for you. Even though something (or someone) is not right for you, it is still a very painful loss, even moreso when you are completely blindsided.

You are in my thoughts today (((NB))).

[This message edited by burninghouse at 11:44 AM, September 16th (Monday)]

Honest question: why would you consult him about filing for divorce?

You’re not on the same team. As with everything so far, he will be protecting his own agenda. He’s worried about his finances, he won’t be concerned about making this a fair process for you.

Collaborating would be cheaper, I just personally think he and OW will be fighting for every dollar.

I am looking forward to regaining everything and more. It’s hard to believe that your world is turned upside down and not long after you are able to appreciate aspects of what is now becoming your future.

Consulting him on divorce isn’t an option. I will be telling him that we are getting divorced, if he fails to cooperate then I will be off to the solicitors. He hasn’t played fair throughout our marriage so I won’t be doing if he starts to play games on that front. I don’t want the financial strain of solicitors and all the he said, she said. Because that will turn me bitter which I won’t be able to cope with in the long term. He has agreed (but aware this can change at any point) to give me what I am entitled to, maintenance and spousal.

He tells me time and time again that he will never walk away from his responsibilities and I will be able to trust him in time. However, I am under no illusion that this will happen. As he so easily walked away from the responsibility of our marriage. If that occurs both I and the rest of us will see what he is actually about. And I doubt anyone will be surprised following what he has already done.

Found out today that his dad rang one of his friends to ask them to take him out for a beer! Because he is isolating himself and only communicating with the OW. For god sake, let the big fella sort his own life out and stop interfering.