SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Why is it hard for WS to understand that there is no RA when you already broke the vows. There is no marriage at that point in the eyes of god unless you both decide to reconcile which usually doesn't happen when “RA” happens.

If by God you are referring to the Judo-Christian God, then that's fundamentally not true. Marriage is considered a sacred covenant. Covenants are pledges that, unlike promises made in a contract, do not depend on the fulfillment of the other promises. That's why up until recent history, it was nearly impossible to get a divorce. I mean if that were the case, then the first time a partner failed to comfort the other then the vows were broken and there could be no affair.

that this somehow brings the BS down to the level of the WS. I understand how it likely muddies the waters in terms of a possible R, but I dont agree that a BS seeking refuge from the storm created by the WS is the same as a WS who decides in the first place, in a marriage devoid of infidelity, to cheat

.

It does in the sense it opens the door to buy into the belief that feelings compel actions. They do not. In order to not offend logic, if you believe that a RA is compelled by an A, then you have to accept that the A was compelled by some action of the BS. We say here, all the time, that regardless of the state of the marriage an affair is a choice and there are other options available. Logic dictates we must say the same thing about a RA.

Even if it were an option, most people would not want to change the rules mid-game, despite giving themselves an advantage, because they understand at some point they will have to be on the other side of the ball.

I can be sympathetic for the motivations behind a RA and still hold the BS to the same standards as the WS.

Mondas, I don’t think my affair was “justified” at all, let alone “more justified.”

Nobody but my H himself stopped my H from coming to SI (or anywhere else) for support. He doesn’t believe in internet support forums, therapy, or discussing his personal business with strangers in general. I told him about SI when I joined.

I don’t think what he did was “an affair” or even “cheating.” I don’t think it helped him, and neither did he. He has said on numerous occasions that he regrets it. And whether or not I regret remarrying him (and I do), I regret cheating instead of divorcing in the first place more.

My apologies for the t/j, Butforthegrace.

Marriage is a contract. When a WS cheats, IMO, that contract is null and voided. They chose to break it. They chose to break the union, the vows, their family, and most of all the heart of their BS. Arrogant as they are, somewhere in their minds must always be the knowledge that at some point they will get busted. The longer the A the greater the chance of that happening. Yet they do it anyway.

Then what? So the BS who at least was pushed to the side to make way for the person who has no problem fucking someone else's spouse is supposed to keep their integrity intact. Take the higher ground. Don't stoop to their level, and so on.

I'm sorry but once a spouse steps out on the marriage all bets are off. Yes I fully believe in an eye for an eye. Why the hell not? Especially when a BS is in a marriage with no way out. Should they just keep having sex with the person who obliterated them? Should they go without any human contact? Let's keep in mind that often as a WS is getting their precious needs met during their A they ignore those of their spouse. So a BS has been left unwanted during the A and then has to wrestle with conflicting feelings towards their WS after DDay.

I think a BS has every right to live their life from DDay on out as THEY see fit. The WS lost their right to say anything about what the BS does. If someone wants to have a revenge A I say go ahead and do it. If they find comfort in the company of someone else, so be it.

My heart, body, and soul were behind a door slammed shut to anyone other than my WH. Now? I'll do whatever the hell I want and if someone walks into my life and something happens, oh well. Then my WH should have kept his married dick out of another woman.

Yes these are words coming from a BS who has given her WH over 3 years to do something concrete towards R yet he still refuses to open up communication. Ok. I'm done trying. From here on out I do what I want. I sure don't feel like a wife, more like a roommate or the hired help.

I owe him NOTHING. Certainly not my loyalty. If anything ever happens I will respond with the same callous answer I recently received..."It just happened" and walk away just like him. Close a door and go into another room just like him. Most of all force him to eat the shit sandwich and act as if nothing is wrong. Just like him.

I get your anger, but divorce is a better answer than sleeping with other people. And I don't say that because I'd feel sorry for your WH. I don't. Sleeping with other people will not fix your life, your marriage, your pain, or make you feel better about his infidelity. It just won't. And you'll be with someone who is totally cool with sleeping with a married woman. Yeah, not so great character there either.

When you allow the circumstances of your life to goad you into acting against your own belief system, you either don't have true, grounding beliefs or you're injuring yourself.

thank you!!!

MBB - I didn't go into marriage thinking it was a contract. who does this? it is a covenant. my own heart is pure. I kept my vow, and that was not continguent on him keeping his.

MBB, be very careful. I am not sure whether you are serious or venting, but your WH seems like the type that would divorce you or physically hurt you for cheating.

My WH broke our covenant. My own personal belief is that two wrongs don’t make a right.

If the contract is null and void, then should he continue to be able to have affairs and disrespect you while living under the same roof? Breaking a contract has benefits and consequences for both parties.

sewardak

No I didn't enter marriage looking at it as a contract but it is, isn't it? Otherwise why would lawyers be needed to end it?

I entered my marriage full of hope. Believing in marriage. Believing in my vows. Believing he meant his. Believing we would have a family and a great life together. I believed a lot. I certainly never considered stepping out on him no matter how badly I was being treated. I kept my integrity and????? WTF did it get me? What did marriage get me? A broken heart. Hurt. Pain. Emotional, verbal and financial abuse. So glad I signed up for that shit.

I was an idiot.

I no longer believe in the things I used to. I just can't. That part of me is gone.

Yes I cried at the wedding we attended this weekend as vows were exchanged, especially those of fidelity. I dabbed my tears as if I were merely just a sappy wedding guest. He was right next to me and I physically turned away from him.

northeasternarea

No worries. There is no one, and I mean NO ONE I am contemplating being with. If there's someone out there he has yet to enter my life.

Yes this is very much coming from a place of anger. Every time I may become nostalgic towards our relationship, our marriage, I am finding myself immediately replacing those stupid mushy feelings with a voice inside reminding me what he has done. What he is failing to do now in spectacular fashion. It pretty much says "Hey MBB, don't forget he's an asshole who didn't give two shits about you" and viola nostalgia turns to anger and pain, thus leading to further detachment.

I think it’s easy to see both sides of this. We all (to varying degrees, granted) have firsthand experience in dealing with the profound pain and terror infidelity causes. And so it’s fairly easy to grant someone who so profoundly feels the loss of security, certainty, and trust that arises. Consequently, grasping for meaning or reassurance seems a somewhat intuitive result, and when so much of what we examine here is the strengthening of individuals, both cheater and betrayed, it’s once again not a surprise that a betrayed spouse would seek this reassurance in a surrogate relationship of some sort. I think that most here feels that the word revenge is, consequently, a misnomer.

I really like KingRat’s point on the covenant- I honestly didn’t stay faithful for the vast majority of my M because I didn’t want my wife to cheat, I did it because I love her and knew it to be the right way to show that love. This is the same lesson in unconditional giving- That REGARDLESS of conditions, I give in accordance with what I feel is honest. Bottom line is it’s not the deterrent value of contractual obligation that drives fidelity, it’s more a natural byproduct of the unconditional giving we associate with love.

So bottom line, I understand the reflexive urge to pair and feel security, and think that terming it revenge is an oversimplification. Sure there are some BSs who might legitimately act out to inflict the same pain as they feel. But I think that’s as low a percentage as cheaters who cheat primarily to hurt.

I entered my marriage full of hope. Believing in marriage. Believing in my vows. Believing he meant his. Believing we would have a family and a great life together. I believed a lot. I certainly never considered stepping out on him no matter how badly I was being treated. I kept my integrity and????? WTF did it get me? What did marriage get me? A broken heart. Hurt. Pain. Emotional, verbal and financial abuse. So glad I signed up for that shit.

And if you betrayed your integrity, what would that have gotten you? Integrity is not conditional, it isn't mutable, it isn't for the benefit of someone else. It is the only firm ground that you can stand on when the world is crashing down around you. No body can take it away; you can only choose to give it up.

These revenge affair threads prompted me to register.

I am someone that revenge cheated. My parents divorced because of my father’s infidelity. He left for the the other woman and I got to experience the joys of a step family and shared holidays. I swore I would never cheat; I had experienced it firsthand and it sucked from my vantage point. My wife and I had a heart to heart before marriage about cheating and swore to each other it would never happen.I was 100% faithful in every way before I found out my wife cheated. Then I told my wife I was going to date other women and that she should consider my side of the marriage open too. I did not lie or sneak around. I did have sex (affairs) with two women, neither were married or in relationships at the time. I guess that ends my disclaimer. You all sorta know where I’m coming from now.

It seems like the RA folks are held in lower regard than the original cheaters here at SI. Why is that? I find it strange that the folks like oldwounds and sewardak that consider the marriage a covenant vs a contract don’t have more issue(s) staying in a marriage to someone that doesn’t share your beliefs. How do you rationalize that? Aren’t you lowering your morals and beliefs by staying with an adulterer?

Her affair handed me a bunch of issues and pain to sort out. The revenge affairs helped me figure some of these out. For some reason, the fact I passed up three chances to cheat in our marriage enraged me. I didn’t feel like a pushover or doormat anymore. It gave my wife some understanding of the severity of our situation and it, along with divorce papers, helped her get her shit together. I didn’t deal with emasculation or humiliation.I knew I could attract and satisfy other women. I got my swag back.

In all honesty, the second affair ended horribly and I caused the other woman (and myself) a bunch of pain. I personally will never cheat again for that reason alone. An affair is no way to start a new relationship. I don’t think it’s a good way to end one either. If I had a “do over” I would have just divorced right away and skipped all of the revenge crap. That said I completely understand why people seek revenge after infidelity.

I think KingRat summed it up better than me:

Integrity is not conditional, it isn't mutable, it isn't for the benefit of someone else. It is the only firm ground that you can stand on when the world is crashing down around you. No body can take it away; you can only choose to give it up.

Using someone else for sex to feel better about my wife's infidelity goes against every value I have. There are other more honorable options in response -- such as walking out the door.

All these RA conversations are based on the futile belief that there is some sense of justice to be sought in relationships. There is not. Sometimes you eat the bear; sometimes the bear eats you. The universe does not recognize fairness. That's a construct of man. The longer we spend preoccupied and obsessed with balancing the scales, the further from healing we are because nothing that is done in the future can ever undo what was done in the past. This "looking back to find our way forward" causes us to be suspended in limbo in the present.

At the end of the day, after we properly patch up our ships (grieve and process) we either change course or find away to navigate the one we are on. Lamenting and fixating on what "should" be is irrelevant and maladaptive to helping us deal with what actually is. If we keep circling the ship in the hopes to claim victory over the sea, we are bound to run aground on the same shoals.

I am not endorsing revenge affairs. however, I am not the one that broke the covenant, not the one that betrayed my vows, destroyed the others trust, or accepted the risk of disease, embarrassment of our family and the AP's family.

That was the waywards decision. Her commitment was to me, and to me alone.

I, and I alone will determine when the wrong is righted. As I chose to stay because of financial and family commitments, the rules have changed, ( or perhaps I just became informed of the rules that I was unaware of). If I choose to have sex with someone else, I will do so, discreetly or not. She has the same choice as I now do, she can leave, or deal with it as I have.

We always have a choice. I don't see how one can argue that that is not fair and equal.

And no, that's not a marriage, it's an arrangement. One she had failed to tell me about for 14 years. She's had a big head start, and I've got a lot of catching up before we are even.

I'm not saying I would, but if the opportunity arises, I would not now dismiss it out of hand.

The universe does not recognize fairness. That's a construct of man.

You are correct, I am not the universe. I am a man.

(Sorry KR, that is not meant to personal, just philosophical.)

[This message edited by twisted at 4:02 PM, November 5th (Tuesday)]

Buck, are you stillarried to your wife who cheated?

I got my swag back.

In all honesty, the second affair ended horribly and I caused the other woman (and myself) a bunch of pain. I personally will never cheat again for that reason alone.

You got your swag back, with the price tag of badly hurting OW2. How do you separate those two in your mind? I would imagine that it would be hard to think of "swag" without associating it with pain, but other folks' minds work differently.

Do you feel you used either of the OWs? Do you feel either of them used you?

It seems like the RA folks are held in lower regard than the original cheaters here at SI.

For some reason, I've seen that more to be true when a BW becomes a MH, rather than when a BH becomes a MH. I see a lot more "I won't judge you" responses when it's a BH/MH (and even "go you! I feel that!"), and a lot less of that when it's a BW/MH. But perhaps I'm seeing it wrong.

I don't think the RA folks are necessarily held in lower regard - more like, frustration from a lot of posters along the lines of "why would you let your WS's shitty behavior compromise your integrity?!" It's not an attempt to invalidate the BS's pain - it's an attempt to prevent the BS from destroying themselves. Sort of like the equivalent of "don't go into that dark room where the axe-murderer is! You already saw Skyler go into that room ten minutes ago and you know ain't nothing good happened after that!"

(Though I have seen some MHs be held in lower regard. I don't agree with that. I think there are a lot more factors to consider, and each individual person has their own degree and different manner of unhealthiness.)

You are correct, I am not the universe. I am a man.

That exists within the laws and applications of the universe.

I can choose to believe that I can fly and no one can make me believe otherwise. But if I jump off my roof, I am bound to the laws of physics which will cause me to plummet and smash into the ground. My belief in my ability to fly will not prevent the painful outcome.

There is nothing inherently wrong with believing in a sense of justice, but it is maladaptive to expect it.

Also, I think the tone when talking to a BS-turned-MH is remarkably like how people greet foggy WS on the Wayward Side - trying very hard to wake them up and bring them out of the fog, often with 2x4s. But with the added complication that you're now addressing someone who wears both hats.