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Have you tried to recover the deleted texts from his phone? It really sounds like he is hiding a lot more than he is saying. My gut is screaming for you. My STBX told me for 6 months his A with MOW was EA only. I got his phone and retrieved the texts sure enough PA and ongoing.

I would do some more investigating if it isn't sitting well with you.

First of all even though their wasn't any physical interaction it doesn't mean it wouldn't have led up to it. You just caught him before it could have gone that direction. There are several psychologists that would agree that it was indeed an emotional affair. John and Julia Gottman and Dr. Shirley Glassman would scientifically prove your husband and your friends wrong. The fact is he intimately had personal conversations with another woman that wasn't his wife. He still crossed boundaries and desired this woman behind your back. Single friends that are attractive and not a friendship of the marriage are potential replacements for you. His defensiveness and denial are already a bad sign that he will either stay in contact with this woman until he finally has sex with her or he will find another “friend” that he claims is not cheating. Your not misreading into this. He’s heading that direction and mentally leaving your marriage. You have to either do more digging or set him straight. Regardless, get rid of the unsupportive friends that don't support your marriage because they aren't true friends.

It’s still cheating!!!!!

If he had hidden interaction and conversations with someone you were not a part of - deep emotional conversations - it’s an emotional betrayal.

There is financial infidelity, emotional infidelity, etc.

It’s all a betrayal. Please explain that to your friends and family.

I have been told that nothing got physical although I'm not sure if I believe that. But I could probably have got over a ONS if the conditions were right. But the amount he shared with his APS meant that even if it was "just" an emotional affair there was no way I was staying

There is financial infidelity, emotional infidelity, etc.

It’s all a betrayal. Please explain that to your friends and family.

IMO, sometimes when it comes to those friends and family, there's betrayal there too! The ones who minimize, cover up, stay silent or "take sides".

In my story, WW wasn't the only one who betrayed me. It's a tidal wave of betrayal. It's a difficult thing to chew on.

[This message edited by ShatteredSakura at 9:54 AM, February 21st (Friday)]

I understand wanting to spend the money to move, not on a polygraph.

The problem is, if he is lying,you are moving with a man who is still lying to you. For reconciliation to be successful,the BS must, at the very least,know the entire truth. Otherwise reconciliation is built on a foundation of lies. And it will crumble.

You have stated that they had time alone together. And he is stating that there was no sex.

My question is what does sex mean to you?

My line is any type of physical contact you shouldn’t do with anyone other than your spouse.

Is he saying that they never kissed? Because that can be a very intimate and sexual act by itself.

This just all sucks that we have to even think about this stuff.

Hugs to you.

You have stated that they had time alone together. And he is stating that there was no sex.

My question is what does sex mean to you?

My line is any type of physical contact you shouldn’t do with anyone other than your spouse.

Is he saying that they never kissed? Because that can be a very intimate and sexual act by itself..

I know, right?!

In 2018, WW and AP were reportedly naked/fondling each other, making out at times. But she swore up and down no PIV (at least until 2019), as if that made it okay! When it all first began, it was "just" kissing" and she was shocked at the outrage!

Sweet jesus, the delusions of some of these people.

It's like the people who will sleep around but "reserve kissing on the mouth" for their SO. Or people who don't think oral or anal is really sex. All of these acts are intimacy. Even fully clothed and kissing is intimacy.

If someone is having an emotional affair and was alone with that person, I cannot believe nothing happened. I was gaslit for so long I just cannot believe people anymore in that situation. If you have such intense feeling, you're going to act on it in some way that is still infidelity. Many would argue having those feelings in the first place is still a grave betrayal anyways.

[This message edited by ShatteredSakura at 10:45 AM, February 21st (Friday)]

Is he saying that they never kissed? Because that can be a very intimate and sexual act by itself.

I find kissing to be more intimate than most "sexual" acts, honestly. I'd much rather have sex with someone I didn't find attractive than kiss them (passionately, I'm not talking about kissing my grandmother here, that's obviously different).

*sigh*

I do understand that non BS's just don't get it.

staystrong101,

They were together often and alone during the affair. They said they were in love. Hmm. I’d say it’s 99.99% chance it was physical. Adults, in “love” and in a hot secret relationship do have sex. I’m sorry. Cheaters also minimize and lie. He could be lying to protect her.

I agree. It doesn’t look good. But, I feel stuck and as if there’s no way to ever actually learn the truth unless he decides to share it with me.

Brokenandsolost,

Thanks for sharing. I’ve read hundreds of stories like yours, and I’m worried that I’m living one as we speak.

Crazyblindsided,

Have you tried to recover the deleted texts from his phone?

I haven’t. I honestly didn’t even know that was a thing you could do. He pretty much never gives me an opportunity to even look at his phone, so I don’t know even how I would. But, maybe I’ll ask him to recover them himself. If he has nothing to hide, he shouldn’t have a problem with doing that.

Bluephoenix,

Agreed. I think it definitely would have gotten physical if the whistle hadn’t been blown on them. According to my husband (and OW’s diary), once they realized that they were “in love,” they tried to cool things off by inviting their spouses to hang out with them instead of hanging out alone. Too little too late in my humble opinion, seeing as how both had been lying to their spouses for weeks at that point already, and then the lies continued as I was introduced to OW as a “friend” and she tried to worm her way into becoming my friend as well. Some friend.

But, even though they supposedly had good intentions in cooling it off, they didn’t stop talking or hanging out. They kept doing it, I guess in hopes that their feelings would just go away or something. But, I think that, at some point, they would have consummated the relationship.

The1stWife,

Absolutely. Couldn’t agree more.

LittleRussian,

Yeah, he shared quite a bit with his AP partner that he never even once mentioned to me, like how he thought he was “polyamorous,” as well as his real thoughts about our marriage. Honestly, it makes me sick. If they had sex, I’m not sure it makes the situation much worse; it’s just the cherry on top.

ShatteredSakura,

IMO, sometimes when it comes to those friends and family, there's betrayal there too! The ones who minimize, cover up, stay silent or "take sides".

Yep, so much this. I was able to sneakily read a couple of conversations he had with friends about it. One of them (someone who I thought was also my friend at the time) went as far as to commemorate my husband for “having the strength to be honest” about the situation.

I don’t know how you can find honesty in a month straight of lying and gaslighting, but whatever. I guess, to him, the fact that they told each other they were in love and had a secret relationship for weeks means nothing as long as they didn’t actually have sex.

It's like the people who will sleep around but "reserve kissing on the mouth" for their SO. Or people who don't think oral or anal is really sex. All of these acts are intimacy. Even fully clothed and kissing is intimacy.

Yep, in a book I read, the author talked about a patient she had who that thought his affair didn’t count because no one orgasmed. Honestly, it’s just the rationalization bullshit that comes from doing something so terrible even they can’t live with it. These people can talk themselves into anything.

HellFire,

The problem is, if he is lying,you are moving with a man who is still lying to you.

There’s no denying that. I’m just not convinced a polygraph is the best course of action. I’ll talk to my therapist about it.

Hopeful30,

My question is what does sex mean to you?

My line is any type of physical contact you shouldn’t do with anyone other than your spouse. Is he saying that they never kissed? Because that can be a very intimate and sexual act by itself.

It’s devastating enough that he thinks he loved her; any amount of physical activity — even a kiss — would hurt. He swears that they never did anything physical at all and says they never even kissed.

Rideitout,

Same.

Dorothy123,

Yep. Hate it.

Do NOT ask him to recover the texts from his phone. The phone will...Somehow reset itself to factory settings.

Call places that do phone repairs and ask if they will run it for you. If it's an independent, sole proprietor they may have less restrictions than a chain. Look for people who advertise JailBreak, not what you want done but they at least sound like they know their way around software and phones.

On the polygraph, yes $800 sounds like an expense but spread the cost against a lifetime of future marriage and it does not seem so high.

(Edit, wrong their)

[This message edited by redfish at 12:37 PM, February 21st (Friday)]

Joanna,

Your H might be telling the truth. They may have seen themselves as noble for forgoing sex, for example. That's pretty unlikely, though.

I think you're dealing with both your own gut feeling and with logic. Logic says your H is likely to be lying, but it's not conclusive.

Your gut, OTOH, is very perceptive. If you can separate logic from gut, you may be able to figure out exactly what your gut sense is. If you figure out what your gut is telling you, I think you can be pretty confident of your conclusion and act accordingly.

*****

I think we all define illicit sex for ourselves.

A WS may set the boundary for 'sex' at no PIV or no 'ILY' or whatever.

Before being betrayed, I didn't have much of a definition for illicit sex, since I didn't think I'd need one.

On d-day, I learned what my W did, and there was no question in my mind - she had illicit sex. She started her revelation by admitting it.

Like ShatteredSakura, I pretty rapidly hypothesized that even a 'romantic' kiss would be cheating. I can't test the hypothesis, of course, since W's illicit sex went far beyond that.

Now, however, I think some (but not all) hugs cross the line. In fact, my W says that my holding her hand turns her on, so for her to hold another adult's hand could cross the line.

Being a BS can really tighten one's boundaries....

You should have full access to his phone. Just take it. Asking him to retrieve the deleted messages, is a mistake. Somehow, he will accidentally do a factory reset, or, he will lie and say they weren't retrievable.

DO NOT TELL HIM to recover the deleted texts. Like the others said he will reset his phone. What kind of phone does he have? Also read that DrFone is a good software to use. Do it while he is sleeping.

They may have seen themselves as noble for forgoing sex, for example. 

Hah WW had a glimmer of this. We separated for a month in 2018, she was with him constantly but she "wanted to wait". Did everything else. Then months later did it abyways secretly. Nothing noble about any of this.

Take the phone, leave the gun/cannolis.

People cry invasion of privacy. He lost that right doing what he did. IMO someone who is awake and remorseful should do that freely anyways. At the least with looking for yourself and violating that privacy you have a chance to smack him back to reality and save your relationship.

Letting an unremorseful person have their privacy to continue betraying you will just lead to false R and other heartache. There are no consequences, why would they change their behavior? It's just an opportunity to cover up tracks and then rugsweep.

And if he is anything like WW, it'll just lead to years down the road where it keeps going further and further making life a living hell for you.

Redfish,

That’s good advice. Thank you. He’s super tech-savvy, and I doubt he’d accidentally restore it to factory settings, as he basically has his whole life on that phone. But if he’s desperate enough for me not to read them, I could see him doing something shady like that.

On the polygraph, yes $800 sounds like an expense but spread the cost against a lifetime of future marriage and it does not seem so high.

That’s a good point. I still feel like I should talk to my IC about it first though. I would have no idea how to go about that, and if he is telling the truth, I kind of feel like asking for it will set us back in the recovery process.

I know that sounds backwards, as he chose to have a secret relationship and lie to my face about it so many times, but I just can’t help but feel that it’d be the beginning of the end.

sisoon,

Your gut, OTOH, is very perceptive. If you can separate logic from gut, you may be able to figure out exactly what your gut sense is. If you figure out what your gut is telling you, I think you can be pretty confident of your conclusion and act accordingly.

On one hand, I feel like my gut is so right it’s almost psychic. I knew from the moment everything started happening that something was off, and I was pretty convinced before I even met OW that he was having an affair with someone. And then, when I met her, I KNEW she wasn’t who they both told me she was and that she was the catalyst for how shitty my husband was treating me at the time and what was going on in our relationship.

On the other hand, though, I feel that, now, my gut is failing me. Logically, yeah, I get that I’d be a fool to believe one word he says. But, my gut tells me that he’s telling the truth. I think maybe this is just ingrained in me after being together for almost half of my life. I just wish there was a way to know for sure without a time machine (or a husband I could trust).

Being a BS can really tighten one's boundaries....

Yep. It really, really does. My husband has always had lots of female friends, many of whom have become my friends now too. But it’ll be a cold day in hell when I ever feel comfortable with him hanging out one-on-one with them or even talking on the phone.

I never wanted to be this person. I hate this.

HellFire and crazyblindsided,

He basically sleeps with his phone under his pillow, and he has changed the password, so I have no way of accessing it even if I wanted to. He has an iPhone, and a while back, I did log into his iCloud so that I could read his iMessages, but he hadn’t backed his phone up since March, so it didn’t help. However, I was able to read the current messages, so at least I know he’s not still talking to her (that is, if she has an iPhone, which I’m pretty sure she does but can’t remember for sure).

Any advice on hacking into it? Haha seriously, I can’t emphasize enough how much I never wanted to be this person. I kind of hate him for turning me into this.

Joanna,

Not having access to your husband's phone right now (ESPECIALLY because it was an EA) should be an automatic deal-breaker. I'm not saying you have to walk-out immediately or anything, but I think you should clearly express that not having access to it at the moment makes you feel unsafe and why (you have a VERY rational reason) and that if he's unwilling to make this concession than it makes it very difficult to try to even begin to build trust. You should be setting and enforcing your boundaries right now and he should be jumping through hoops to meet them.

If he resists, I hate to say it, but it sounds like he's *still* hiding something. Messages can very easily be deleted. Do not feel guilty - what you are feeling is normal.

You'll see it written over and over again but if you want to save your marriage you have to be willing to lose it. That means being willing to "set things back" as far as you're recovering. If you don't do all the work now, you wont be all-the-way reconciled at the end of the day. There really aren't any shortcuts.

I'm sorry you're struggling.

emergent8,

Yeah, I know what it looks like. He’s always been a “phone in the bathroom” type of guy though, so being glued to it isn’t something new that’s happened since the affair.

I haven’t asked for access to his phone, expect to see the text messages between him and her to ensure that they weren’t still happening. When I asked, he scrolled through the list of texts for November (which is when he said he stopped talking to her) and said, “this is where they would have been. I must have deleted them.” Seemed pretty fucking fishy to me though, seeing as how he seemed not to remember deleting them. And if she had texted him after that day, her texts wouldn’t have shown up with the November ones.

We were in couples counseling at first (we’ve recently stopped for the moment, and I am going to IC for the first time next week). Our counselor told me not to get too caught up in the “spy games” because they undermine the rebuilding of trust, which is why I haven’t demanded full access like a lot of people say they have. I sort of feel like he might be right, but I am planning to talk to my IC about it, as well as whether or not a polygraph is a good idea.

You'll see it written over and over again but if you want to save your marriage you have to be willing to lose it. That means being willing to "set things back" as far as you're recovering. If you don't do all the work now, you wont be all-the-way reconciled at the end of the day. There really aren't any shortcuts.

Ouch. That’s terrifying and incredibly upsetting to hear, but I know you’re probably right.

The fact that he changed his password and sleeps with his phone isn't a good sign. I would demand the password and the phone and then back it up to your computer. In the back-up files there is code and within the code are the deleted messages. That is how I caught my STBX. You can even google how to look through which code files.

If he gets upset or takes off with the phone you know he is hiding something.