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Compartmentalizing is also a survival mechanism.

For any of you that are married to a first responder, nurse, Dr, etc you know that they have to be able to comparmentalize what they deal with and do, otherwise they would be dealing with constant grief, anger, emotional pain.

The shit they see/do/deal with daily has to be boxed up and put away to be able to function in a normal family situation as well. I was this many years old when I realized I had PTSD not just from my parental abuse, my H's A, but all the shit I dealt with in all the years I was an ICU/Trauma nurse. For many of us, Cops, Soldiers, Paramedics, you just deal with the trauma of others, do the best you can and never talk about it again. That isn't healthy either, and the more I understand it, the more I realize it probably has something to do with my health and autoimmune disease.

My point being there are some of us that are definitely trained to do this and more adept at it, and it becomes a muscle memory type thing where it just happens without conscious thought. It also explains a tiny part of the why these professions are some of the worst for A's.

The big difference in your example and an A is first responders, etc. are not the ones that caused the pain and\or suffering. In fact, they are typically trying to make the situation better or help the person. It's a helluva lot easier to take comfort in that versus actively trying to fuck your spouse and children over and "box it up" so you don't feel like a piece of shit. Totally different scenarios.

I don't think it's fair to even call the self delusion that cheater's use so they can keep some sort of notion that they aren't complete shitheels compartmentalization. They have to actively deceive the person they're cheating on. Your speaking ABOUT the person you're betraying to the AP while cheating. How can you not think about the person while doing that?

Yep. Sorry, but if you are talking about me to someone else, you have not compartmentalized me.

I haven’t read through all of this in detail, but this right here is exactly why I have an issue with my WH saying he compartmentalized. He talked about me with the first AP all the damn time. She brought me up all the time because she was jealous of me. I totally believe that cognitive dissonance, compartmentalizing, etc., is real. What I don’t believe is that my WH was doing it because of the reasons stated above. The two worlds collided often. There were no separate boxes open at different times. It was one big disorganized box.

To me, I think he was more in the justification realm that somebody previously outlined. Real life is hard. My wife is sad about not getting pregnant. She’s suspicious of my behavior. But this AP. Damn. It’s all fun and games with her.

So, I have zero ability to compartmentalize. I feel all my feelings in real time as I move through my day and my life, and I gotta say, sometimes it's even a problem. I wish I could compartmentalize better for more focus and less mess during difficult times! But at least I feel my feelings.

I have one weird cheating/real life overlap example that comes to mind.

I have a friend (more acquaintance) who was a huge cheater in his dating years. Every girlfriend broke up with him due to cheating. He's charming, knows how to connect with women. One of his girlfriends gets pregnant, so he decides to marry her. She accepts his excuses when he cheats, so he probably felt safe with her. (He is addicted to the chase and capture. It is the clearest example of addictive cheating for ego kibbles that I've ever seen.) He knows that I don't agree with his need for the ego boosts of cheating, don't tolerate it, and think it's beyond messed up. But he's a denier.

He was talking to a girl at a huge birthday party for a friend of ours, talking to her for a long time. Lots of smiling. She went to the bathroom. I go over and say, "I can't believe you. Leave her alone. Don't you think about your pregnant wife?" His eyes flashed. It was like watching the compartment leak (leak out the ego high he was experiencing!). He said, "Diana isn't here, and I'm not doing anything wrong. It's not your problem to worry about."

His voice was cold and detached. If, and I believe he was, I pushed him into his reality compartment, in that moment there was no emotion there in reality. His wife and child were not actual people in the room with him, and they weren't being physically harmed. Cold detachment. Justification. A flash of anger to get me away from that compartment. It was creepy. It was robotic.

We haven't been very friendly since that night, just keep our distance these days. I believe this is why cheaters either do not discuss their families or do so with blame, anger, and negative comments. That reality compartment--and the feelings in that box--are painful reminders that they are doing something bad, that they should be ashamed, so their FOO grown psyche (just my opinion) takes over to protect them from those shameful feelings, the pain of actually considering the hurt or truth of what they are doing. In my view, it is done at a subconscious level, naturally and without thought like has been done so many other times in their life. This is how cheating or flirting is like a drug, not processed with consequences, needed to feel better, and not looked at through reality because the shame is kept elsewhere in the psyche.

If you ask me, using compartmentalization while cheating and admitting to it is a red flag of serious detachment and coping issues gone wrong. It shows an ability to separate from the necessary and self-regulating feelings of guilt and shame. Yes, those feelings had to be survived during FOO years, but now they need to be reintegrated for healthy living and decision making as an adult. If a WS says, "No, I never thought about you," they need to march into IC and ask why they are so good at putting away feelings and how they can get more in touch with their full palate of emotions. Asap.

Unless you revisit the toxic guilt and shame you have learned to compartmentalize and still compartmentalize whenever it shows up in your life, you do not know yourself at all. You are hiding from your true feelings about yourself and all that you do. Toxic detachment.

I don't understand how you tell your committed partner you love her, and then immediately go have sex with someone else and tell that person you love her.

But, as long as you swap the genders of the pronouns to fit your sitch, that is one of THE biggest issues for BSes.

And there's no certain resolution. One turns one's mind one way or another, and makes a choice to accept or not accept one's WS's words.

I'm writing to argue that the 'why' and the how are unimportant. What's important is first, that the WS chose to betray and second, how the BS wants to respond to the betrayal(s).

Sometimes the why is clear to the BS. I chose to view my W's A as, in essence, a 'nervous breakdown.' Because of her choices and events forced on her, I rapidly concluded she betrayed me only because she betrayed herself first. So I was up for R IF she decided to figure out how not to betray herself again.

Some people - the 'D always' folks - probably think I gave her a pass that I shouldn't have. I agree that I gave her a pass. I am as confident as I can be that it was the right choice for me and for her.

I'm pretty healthy psychologically. I avoid some conflicts, but I address most of them. I don't dissociate. I don't notably compartmentalize.

But I think my approach to dealing with my W's A is a case of compartmentalization. I addressed it every way I could think of, but in the end, I don't think I understand it, and in the end, I had to put it in a box in my head and keep it there.

*****

And them there's the fairly consistent advice from M 'experts' to 'leave the office at the office,' as if today's managers allow their knowledge workers to do that.

Isn't that a case of experts telling people to compartmentalize?

*****

Again, the same term can be used to explain and/or excuse (and probably for other purposes, too). I'm a lot more positive about an explanation than an excuse, but I'm not sure that here or there.

That's why I emphasize actions. That's why one of SI's major commandments is to watch the WS's actions and to not listen to the words alone. Whether it's an explanation or an excuse, if the WS wants to R, s/he/they damn well better do the work necessary to R, no matter what they say about why they cheated.

[This message edited by sisoon at 10:14 AM, February 29th (Saturday)]

My STBXWW had her secret life, but it took a toll on her health. The stress was bad enough that, even before Dday, people were commenting on how rapidly she was aging. She even ended up with an enlarged heart. So I guess the compartmentalizing did not work so well. But I'm sure it was sure worth it for all the truck sex they had... now it makes me laugh. What, were they like 16?

Most likely answer, "He said "I love you" to get in her panties", it was a line, not a "feeling".

RIO, you say this a lot in response to my posts. I don't know if you don't read what I say or you don't believe it because it doesn't fit into your view of things. But, my H did not say that to into her pants. He has never been the type to try to get unto someone's pants.

He didn't have to try with the MOW. She was the pursuer,the one who pushed for sex. He said it to her because he felt it. He said it to me because he was supposed to because I'm his W. He was lying to me about loving me at the time, not her.

I'm not distraught over it, so I don't need your reassurances that it wasn't true. I know it wasn't real. I don't need my H to love me.

What I was trying to get at is that I don't see how that is compartmentalization. I was front and center right up until the moment he switched his attention to her. I don't believe he was able to turn me off like a switch.

I can say that I did compartmentalize yet I had to make the conscience choice to do so. I had to choose to be selfish and to take my wife for granted so I could take advantage of her. Compartmentalizing isn't an excuse. It is a road. A way to clean up a mess. No matter how I did it. I can admit I chose to do it. Watch Laugh Your Way to a Better Marriage. That man is good at explaining compartmentalizing.

There were times I thought about my wife when I would choose to compartmentalize. I didn't care. I found ways to still justify doing what I thought was fun. I knew she wasn't going anywhere. I already won that. I banked on her love. Yeah..I was that selfish and shallow. I would challenge every wayward to really dig deep into their compartmentalizing and admit some reality checks and ugly truths.

I haven't read the entire thread yet.

Compartmentalization is real! We all do it because we have to. We compartmentalize our thoughts about our professional lives when we are cooking dinner, taking care of kids, etc.

But cheaters generally use "compartmentalization" as an excuse to hide the truth, which is they "didn't give a shit" as long as they weren't in trouble.

"Compartmentalizing" and "not giving a shit" are completely different.

Let's try it out:

"Honey, I was able to keep having a sexual affair with that bimbo from the office who I sexted, texted, and planned meetups with even while I was at home because I compartmentalized it as long as you never found out."

VS.

"Honey, I was able to keep having a sexual affair with that bimbo from the office who I sexted, texted, and planned meetups with even while I was at home because I didn't give a shit about it as long as you never found out."

The second one was the truth, the first was excuses in the form of psych-talk.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 8:10 PM, February 29th (Saturday)]

But cheaters generally use "compartmentalization" as an excuse to hide the truth, which is they "didn't give a shit"

"Not giving a shit" requires zero compartmentalizing. You can think on your spouse and kids all day because you don't care. No guilt. No shame. Nada.

"Having crappy feelings, guilt, or shame because you know what you are doing is wrong and hurtful?" Now that requires a different compartment asap. Push it away. Fast.

Two different selfish spouses.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 8:38 PM, February 29th (Saturday)]

^^^Not for me it wasn't. I still had shame even though I didn't give a shit about hurting my spouse to get what I wanted. I had to compartmentalize to escape the shame. Not because of hurting my spouse. Because I was hurting myself. To escape the true me. Though I did care to a point. Obviously I chose to not go too far to put what I valued more at risk.

[This message edited by Zugzwang at 8:30 AM, March 1st (Sunday)]

still had shame even though I didn't give a shit about hurting my spouse

If you didn't care about hurting your W, why the shame? Because cheating is wrong and you didn't want to be a bad person? A general sense of breaking the rules?

I think that's more likely where my H's shame came from at first. He always prided himself on being the good guy, always followed the rules. Suddenly, he was the bad guy. He couldn't handle that, so he vilified me and victimized himself. He wasn't bad if he was doing it because I was mean and mistreating him and he deserved to be feel good, be happy.

I totally see him compartmentalizing his feelings about cheating. I don't see him compartmentalizing me.

shame? Because cheating is wrong and you didn't want to be a bad person? A general sense of breaking the rules?

Yes to both. I had shame in pretending to be someone I was not. The compartmentalizing wasn't for her. It was for me. Of course, many need to know I had wanted and valued my wife like an object. To make things easier...I put her in a mother role. Hell, I even talked about my APs in front of her. Like a proud teen who just made two new friends. Do kids compartmentalize their parents? Or do they just bank on unconditional love and take advantage of them and take them for granted when they shift to peer oriented behaviors?

Do kids compartmentalize their parents? Or do they just bank on unconditional love and take advantage of them and take them for granted when they shift to peer oriented behaviors?

I don't understand what you are asking. I don't think children who are loved unconditionally take advantage of their parents. Maybe they take that for granted, but that's the point, isn't? I want my children to know that I will always love them no matter what. Of course, that's not the same as liking them.

When would a child need to compartmentalize his parents?

Conflict avoidants are excellent compartmentalizers. Due to FOO (usually) they learn to put their anger and hurt in a compartment and switch the channel since they are often powerless as children to actually articulate that anger. Being out of practice and uncomfortable with their own anger then, they enter marriage and keep all anger in until it becomes a festering resentment. Unaware that their compartmentalization and avoidance is their own issue and not their spouse's fault, they justify cheating as a way to get back their power over this anger they feel. It's very passive aggressive. Most compartmentalizers can be very passive aggressive.

I agree with evertrying - we have a winner here. This is pretty much my WH, all rolled into a nice package. Conflict avoidant, unresolved FOO, the works.

If you didn't care about hurting your W, why the shame?

Well, shame has to come from "caring" about hurting someone, but it's not that you are terrified of their reaction to the hurt necessarily (you can't be if you aren't letting yourself think about it, especially by convincing yourself "they'll never find out"). No, you are more likely shamed because you are breaking your own moral code to be a good person, to not hurt people, especially those people who are good to you. Deciding to participate in something that goes against who you are--because you are chasing some dysfunctional, misguided high or need that you cannot even name or understand (hence the "I don't know what I was thinking")--always brings on an "I am such a horrible person" level of shame that must be psychologically dealt with. Unless you are a sociopath who literally feels nothing, acting against your own set of beliefs is the purest definition of dysfunction and immediately causes toxic levels of shame, making shame and compartmentalization very close friends.

They say that toxic shame is the cause of the greatest compartmentalizers of all time--npds and other personality disorders--who have completely lost touch with their true self to escape that unbearable shame and self-loathing they were consumed with long ago.

Shame is, "I am a horrible human being." And when some other need or longing or empty place is demanding attention inside you, and soothing that need will break one's moral code, it automatically produces shame that must be managed. The irony is that shame was often the original bottomless pit that demanded attention--and was cured with MORE shameful behavior! That is the siren song of every alcoholic, drug addict, shoplifter, cutter, npd, workaholic, bully, codependent, and sex addict there ever was. Round and round it goes.

Shame is a powerful emotion that can cause people to feel defective, unacceptable, even damaged beyond repair.

When you feel shame, you're feeling that your whole self is wrong.

When you feel guilty, you're making a judgment that something you've done is wrong.

When you feel guilty about the wrong thing you did, you can take steps to make up for it and put it behind you. But feeling convinced that you are the thing that's wrong offers no clear-cut way to "come back" to feeling more positive about yourself.

For many of us, shame is at the heart of cheating and would be one of the Whys. (But no BS must accept it or care. It just is. Do with it what you will.)

Brene Brown is the guru of toxic shame. She is a fantastic source on the topic.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 1:19 PM, March 2nd (Monday)]

I don't think children who are loved unconditionally take advantage of their parents.

Did you ever do anything you knew you weren't allowed to do? Ever disrespect your parents? Sneak out? Stay out late? Did you ever disregard what your parents said about how great you were and that wasn't enough? You wanted the acceptance and opinion of your peers? Take their love for granted because you knew you had it and instead tried to impress kids in your own peer group?

IMO teens go to is compartmentalizing.

I view shame differently. It is feeling bad because you knew you did something you were guilty of that was wrong. Earned and deserved. There to feel so you might not do it again the next time. No different than feeling burnt if you touched something hot. That is the internal reaction to a more abstract stimuli.

My H was definitely full of shame. He was ashamed that he couldn't make me happy and that our life wasn't straight out of Leave it to Beaver. His solution was to do something truly shameful.

Zug, I did all those things. But, I did not receive unconditional love from my parents. Very few parents give their children unconditional love, even if they feel it. There are many parents who purposely do not give their children unconditional love. I don't think that you can look at traditional, mainstream parenting as unconditional or teen "rebellion" as taking advantage of that.

My children know they are unconditionally loved. They do not defy me. But, then, I don't have absolute rules that they must follow because I'm in charge for them to defy.

My 16yo son went to a friend's house last night. I don't even know what time he left. It was dark out. The rest of us went to bed around 10. He wasn't home. My 8yo expressed fear about his brother not being home yet. Not 5 minutes later, said brother walked in the door.

I didn't tell him what time to be home. He doesn't have a curfew. I didn't grill him about what he was going to do before he left or what he did while he was gone. He told me where he was and what he did.

He and 2 friends went to McDonald's. He asked if I was upset about that. I said I wasn't. I asked if there was any reason I should be. Did they cause trouble? He said they didn't. They were just hanging out. He said his friends asked if I would be mad that he went there. He told them I probably wouldn't mind. He was right. I'm so glad he feels that safe with me. I trust him and he respects me (for the most part).

I have done my best to create an environment of unconditional love, respect, safety, trust, and freedom for my children.