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Good point, I have no idea. Because I am blind I guess

Hard to get there in one day. I am learning. slowly, very slowly

I really didn’t mean you. This takes years to work out if ever. I’m speaking about the things she should have done.

Yeah, can't speak about her, She's trying but I don't know if it is enough

I guess if your satisfied that’s all that matters. You have the patience of a saint. If my wife had a 4.5 year affair and feed me the same lies I would have expected more. A lot more and I wouldn’t have waited months for the truth (assuming you have it and personally I have my doubts about her story ) and for her to take action

Of course I’m divorced so maybe I’m not the best source of advice

I love waitedwaytoolong. He’s awesome. And has the ability to cut to the chase which I sure need and desire.

But his math skills are a bit lacking. We are a few days from 3 months, not 2! That’s even worse.

Anyway, my concern is she still blames these things she has to do, on you. Do you think that is true?

A remorseful WW would say, “I brought this on myself ... I want and need to make these changes to better myself and for you and our marriage. I understand and agree we cannot heal and rebuild while the AP is still in our lives. Thank you for the patience you have shown. I promise to make this right as quick as I can.”

Would you say that is her approach? Or are you far from it and she still resents YOU for having to upend her life?

I’m sorry this is where life has brought you.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 4:45 AM, July 1st (Wednesday)]

Stevesn, thanks for pointing that out. I guess that’s why my golf partners don’t let me keep score!

You are right. Does make it worse.

I guess I have never understood after such a betrayal and trauma that the BS is supposed let the WS come out of their “fog”.

I am of the school that if you screw up you fix it, and fix it fast

The fact she is still working with her AP and has resisted leaving the job, knowing the damage it has done to Achilles is something I just don’t understand. If it were me in the same shoes I would have resigned the first day.

In fact I would have quit the day the other BS found out years before.

Let's see how achilles does now. A lot of us go into shock on d-day. Few people are at their best while in shock. A lot of us need 2-4 months to get out of shock.

A BS often needs time to recover from the blows received before, on, and after d-day. Apparent inaction may actually be necessary for starting to deal with the trauma, gather one's internal resources, etc.

Energy spent beating oneself up and energy spent regretting the slowness of one's progress is wasted. It's much better to switch that energy into healing channels.

*****

A word, waited ... with biking, the data is objective - time, distance, power, cadence, speed ... very hard to manipulate. Just sayin'....

She has resisted taking any responsibility for anything for a long time. Supposedly when I contacted OBS there has been an epiphany of sorts for her. I have noticed a change, but am not totally convinced.

She still gets defensive at times and I don't think she has truly become vulnerable. I think she is still hedging her bets to a certain extent. I wonder if she is not capable of truly setting herself free. I still feel like she is holding back, afraid to take the next step. Like she can't totally be honest with herself.

Just feelings, but I think I know her pretty well. As soon as I wrote that I realized how stupid it was. I guess I don't know her at all. So maybe pure speculation.

She has resisted taking any responsibility for anything for a long time. Supposedly when I contacted OBS there has been an epiphany of sorts for her. I have noticed a change, but am not totally convinced.

She still gets defensive at times and I don't think she has truly become vulnerable. I think she is still hedging her bets to a certain extent. I wonder if she is not capable of truly setting herself free. I still feel like she is holding back, afraid to take the next step. Like she can't totally be honest with herself.

I recommend refocusing on yourself. Everyday ask, "What would make me happy or bring me some joy today?" Instead of asking what she's doing, if she's helping or hurting, growing or changing, see if she--as she currently is--fits into your intentional and conscious daily pursuit of joy. If not, the natural 180 takes effect. The natural 180 is when you just don't spend time thinking about things and people that disappoint, it says, "I focus on the activities, people, and pursuits that bring me good feelings about myself and the world. I stay away from spending time on things that let me down." Change your focus to YOU, to intentionally being happy. You will find yourself naturally pulling away from investing in her if you know that you will end up feeling worse, not better.

Please move your thoughts, time, energy, and goals toward things that make you happy--walks, hobbies, sports, hiking, biking, friends, family, animals, volunteering, new skills, church, or adventures. You deserve to be happy. Do not invest in activities, people, and goals that let you down. You are then pursuing self-harm. Do you understand that? Your life, your joy. Chase only things that bring joy. Spend a lot less time thinking about people like your WW and things that you cannot control. You do not fix a problem by focusing on it to the exclusion of your life. Your life is literally passing you by. Stop thinking about her all the time. Create the happiness you want to live.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 1:06 PM, July 1st (Wednesday)]

Let's see how achilles does now. A lot of us go into shock on d-day. Few people are at their best while in shock. A lot of us need 2-4 months to get out of shock.

That's what I was thinking, though it's not uncommon to see people pushing like this even in the Just Found Out Forum. It's a huge mindshift to make, and it does take a little more time.

For what it's worth, I have read your wife's posts and agree with this assessment:

She has resisted taking any responsibility for anything for a long time. Supposedly when I contacted OBS there has been an epiphany of sorts for her. I have noticed a change, but am not totally convinced.

She still gets defensive at times and I don't think she has truly become vulnerable. I think she is still hedging her bets to a certain extent. I wonder if she is not capable of truly setting herself free. I still feel like she is holding back, afraid to take the next step. Like she can't totally be honest with herself.

And it might not be popular amongst some, but I also think that it takes the WS some time to get oriented after DDAY as well. That same 4-5 months my H spent in shock, I spent spinning as well, after a 2 month affair, much less a 4.5 year long affair. It's not right, I am not advocating you put up with anything, but it's why detachment is so needed in order to protect yourself during this time.

You don't go from spending 4.5 years keeping a secret like this, including the secret after the AP had a DDAY, without having built up a lot of narrative in your head that needs dispelled. I went to IC literally the week after the AP had a a dday, and went faithfully 2-3 times a week for 2 months before I even confessed to my own H, and still didn't quite get it even though I knew enough that it was the right thing to do at the time. But, at the same time just because I do think I did eventually get it, doesn't mean every WS will.

You have to think in terms of outcomes, how will you be okay regardless of where the pendulum swings? My H really felt a lot better when he had the confidence that things would be okay with or without me. He had clear plans and paths for making both possible. And, honestly even me having those things helped me gain clarity as well. The only way that R works in my opinion is if both people know they can do something else if they want to but feel the clarity they don't want to. And, as the BS you need to feel confident that if R doesn't work out you can get the heck out of dodge at any point you want.

I have advised your wife to get a poly. You probably read that already. I think if you have 4.5 years of not knowing what was going on in your life that you can't even begin to forgive things if you don't feel certain of what it is you are forgiving. That is completely still up to the two of you, but 4.5 years means that she has spun up a lot of justification, callousness, and the ability to lie. Those are things that fall under "self protection" and getting vulnerable takes unwinding a lot of the stuff we told ourselves.

I often give WW the benefit of the doubt because I do believe that we can redeem ourselves. I often say that the ones who seem so sure and seem to get it out of the gate...I am usually more suspicious of them to be honest. I often think maybe they are the greatest at compartmentalizing. It was messy in my aftermath for a reason, and it's because I am a bad compartmentalizer. I know I have ac confirmation bias based on my own experience. But because of my experience the ones who don't quite get it from the get go...I think they are the more genuine. The others who seem to get it from the get go I feel are better at hiding how they feel because they go into repair mode immediately. Unless it was like a ONS or a prostitute or something like that, it's hard for me to think that you can put away all of your narrative on the first week, first months out unless you are using what you practiced you were going to say.

Anyway, just some random thoughts I have been having as I have followed both your stories.

[This message edited by hikingout at 1:13 PM, July 1st (Wednesday)]

She has resisted taking any responsibility for anything for a long time. Supposedly when I contacted OBS there has been an epiphany of sorts for her. I have noticed a change, but am not totally convinced.

She still gets defensive at times and I don't think she has truly become vulnerable. I think she is still hedging her bets to a certain extent. I wonder if she is not capable of truly setting herself free. I still feel like she is holding back, afraid to take the next step. Like she can't totally be honest with herself.

Just feelings, but I think I know her pretty well. As soon as I wrote that I realized how stupid it was. I guess I don't know her at all. So maybe pure speculation.

Well, the last part shows you are learning.

4.5 years is a super long time. Seems like to me, if she loved you AND wanted the marriage she would have managed to figure out how to help you in some way.

As it is, she has really done nothing. 3 months and not really anything at all.

Why are you allowing yourself to be treated this way????

It's a difficult concept to explain, but pretend you know and can see everything. All future and past is known to you, and you can see your future. You see that you will face a very unfortunate accident in 45 days, and your WW will make zero changes during that time. You only have 45 days left. So the first two are probably spent crying, the next two are spent staring at a wall in a depressed stupor. Then you realize, "Wait, 41 days! I better get up!" You have kids, right? You think of them. Friends? They come to mind. Do you have a mom and dad, Achilles? Siblings? You think of ALL these people. There is your WW, sitting there. You spend a day trying to convince her to run around and be active with you. "Let's do something! Call in sick to work!" She tells you that she can't, that work is very important. So you sit there, alone. Feeling stuck.

40 days left.

You look at that tent that hasn't been opened in 10 years! That fishing pole that's gathering webs. "Yesss!" you think. "A few days in the woods will be great! WW won't come, so I'm not bothering with her. No time. I only have 40 days left! She is so broken! But damn it, I am not wasting my time worrying about that. I only have 40 more days!"

Achilles, it looks like that. I am not telling you to divorce your wife or hate her. I am telling you to focus on you, enjoy your life. We all only have 40 days or 40 weeks or 40 years left. You just never know, right? But focusing on you will be the beginning of knowing how or if your WW can fit into your awesome life. Just see how it goes, how she responds, how you feel. Drive your own life every single day and see if there is any place in your car for her. You don't need to know the answer right now. Get back to living and see how things go.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 1:33 PM, July 1st (Wednesday)]

Apparently the affair started on a game app in 2015. It continued for about a year when, for a reason I don't know, AP told his wife. Supposedly the affair ended at that time. Then at the end of 2017 it started up again and continued until I found out in May of 2019.

And it might not be popular amongst some, but I also think that it takes the WS some time to get oriented after DDAY as well.

Hikingout, you have great insights, but he finds out about the affair in May of 2019. It’s now July of 2020. Even though he didn’t have the full story, she did. Don’t you think a year is a reasonable amount of time to “get oriented” and figure out how to help herself, and a plan to help him?

Shouldn’t she at least have figured out a way to remove the AP from their lives as you did?

Do you also think that she in 4.5 years never kissed him? My guess is 99% of affairs begin with a kiss, and 99.9999% happen in a workplace environment where you have stolen moments.

Things just do not add up

I get that you want the marriage to continue. I respect that. You just need for her to be truthful and to help you heal from this nightmare.

OIN,

I think I get what you are saying. I have been working with my oldest son on his project car, and get out into the yard with my dogs, they are great helpers, experts in demolition and trenching. So I do have things for me. But, it all seems to circle back to the relationship. Do we need to live apart? I have rejected that so far.

Hikingout,

I think I am OK with D. I was a single dad before so I know I can do it. I don't particularly want to do it but I know I can.

You are correct in that I have to be certain I know everything. I don't think that is the case as of now. I don't think she is truly letting go and giving herself up. I think she is still afraid for what ever reason.

BP,

I agree she had a long time to try and make this right. I know you can't make this right, but I hope you know what I mean.

She has done some things, but I wonder if she truly "gets it". I am afraid she is doing only what I require, not doing things because it is right.

WWTL,

You make some great points that I agree with, why? Why? Why?

She did know and refused to tell me under the guise of "protecting me" BS, protecting herself.

Bottom line is she lied to me for, I now know, almost five years and then lied to me for another year after I found out. That is a lot of lying.

Why I stay is a complicated issue. I should have left when I first found out. I didn't so here I am.

Hikingout, you have great insights, but he finds out about the affair in May of 2019. It’s now July of 2020. Even though he didn’t have the full story, she did. Don’t you think a year is a reasonable amount of time to “get oriented” and figure out how to help herself, and a plan to help him?

I was going off the fact people were saying that it was 3 or 4 months. I thought for some reason it was May of this year. A year is definitely long enough. I would say it took me 6-8 months, and maybe more like 12 to be fully R material. But progress was being made continuously, I just wasn't quite where I needed to be yet. My behaviors matched my intent though, and H had the full truth. I was still finding ways that I wasn't the bad guy is the best way I could describe it.

Do you also think that she in 4.5 years never kissed him? My guess is 99% of affairs begin with a kiss, and 99.9999% happen in a workplace environment where you have stolen moments.

I fully admit some of her story doesn't add up, that's why I suggested to her that she needs to take a poly. I didn't see she said she didn't kiss him. I do not claim to know the truth, but if he feels like he doesn't have it, I definitely would not blame him for feeling that way.

As I told her, I had a 2 month affair where AP was more than a thousand miles away, sex still happened. I will say my affair did not start with a kiss, it was long distance so it started with texting/pictures/skype. Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction, but I would believe a BS gut feeling. It's not impossible if she really never saw him in any other environment, it's just hard to imagine that was never arranged.

I should have left when I first found out. I didn't so here I am.

Better late than never.

I will say my affair did not start with a kiss, it was long distance so it started with texting/pictures/skype.

My thoughts on the kiss were in relation to the sexual aspects of affairs.

No affair truly starts with a kiss. There is some kind of flirtation involved. It could be years over facebook, or a half an hour at a bar late at night.

I just dont believe someone ever gets to the point of any sexual act without the kiss being the start. My wife AP kissed her (this was after a few days of heavy flirting) and they were having sex 10 minutes later. She tried to fall back on that he initiated it, but that was bullshit. An electrician working on the house doesn't make that move unless strong signals were sent it would be ok.

He was more than well rewarded for whatever little risk he took.

But there was no way she does the things she did with him without that first overture of a kiss.

Just to clarify. I found the old phone and it took me a while to figure out who it was, so there were months were I knew she was having an affair but I didn't know with who. I didn't confront her until I knew who it was as I knew she would just deny it

WWTL,

I get what you are saying and it hits me hard. I guess denial is my friend