SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Achilles, do you have an open line of communication with OBS? What if you get a response from OBS in which she reveals not everything has been as innocuous as your WW would like you to believe it was? If you plan on outing the OM, make sure you're prepared for him to throw your WW under the bus again if she was also not following NC.

Achilles,

You have two things going against you right now:

1. You are a People Pleaser

2. You are in the process of Analysis until Paralysis

Fundamentally, when you put these two factors together, you get Limbo, as one exacerbates the other. Putting fuel in to the fire.

The People Please part wants to please everyone else, but themselves, and they would rather forgo their own needs/wants so that others get their needs/wants fulfilled. A martyr complex.

Then comes the analysis part; where the person overthinks the analysis, and hence does not accept it. Nothing will ever be good enough, because it does not fit their own internal results that they have already predetermined internally. This end-result may or may not be conscious.

Until you can break free of these two factors, you will not be able to move on with your life. This does NOT mean you have to D, but you will have to make a choice, or you would be slipping into the mindset of a wayward (hint: cake-eating, in that you want everything, but not willing to give up anything).

Just to be clear, I post on this thread what I feel regardless of how it effects anyone, my wife included. I have told her I don't care if she reads it. I am not scared of her.

She had to tell her whole family about the affair and get a new job. I know she put it off for a long time but those are two things that were consequences.

WWTL,

She did some incredibly screwed up things, there is no denying that. What I am looking for is that soul searching that can result in real change. Can she get there? I don't know. I am willing to wait and see.

She didn't continue the affair after I found out, as far as I can tell.

We are both privately messaging well respected people on the forum I guess you will just have to trust me on that If not, so be it.

OIN,

I am trying to deal with this in my own way, not always successfully. I believe she is making progress, but old habits are hard to break and it has been slow. Sometimes I think she still doesn't get it. Boundaries and changing those is a huge issue.

I do not have an open line of communication with OBS. She blocked me after I initially contacted her. I think she is in more denial than I seem to be. She made it clear that my wife is entirely to blame for everything, so I don't expect anything different when she gets our latest news. Sometimes I think it would make things easier if I had proof she was not being honest with me now.

RB,

A lot of what you say hits a chord with me. Maybe that is part of it, I don't know. I really haven't had the chance to analyze myself. I know I do feel pretty beat up both mentally and physically.

I get the whole devil you know thing. I had another spinal fusion and pretty soon I will be a stick figure, but I don't think that is what's happening here.

I never really thought of myself as a people pleaser. I pissed a lot of people off. I do believe in self sacrifice, so maybe that is the same thing. I definitely am not a martyr.

I guess the bottom line is I am willing to wait and see if she can really change. Yes the pain waiting is tough, but I am hopeful she can do it. If not, I am out. My youngest graduates high school next June. I can wait that long.

[This message edited by achilles1101 at 1:03 AM, November 16th (Monday)]

I will ask one more time. Did you have the discussion about the party? Did she even consider not going? Describe her thinking to us?

You are obviously not going to answer this other than to say you talked to her. I’m sure there is no way you will tell us how she justified it, or being ok with the AP being in town for the week. All of this your right. You owe us nothing

I however need to drop off this. I can’t help without knowing more than the bare minimum you are putting out here. I hope you are giving more the the posters you message with.

I will say, that no poster, no matter how wise, will be able to do much for you until she starts putting you first. That hasn’t happened yet

Good luck to you

I don't know if she ever considered not going to the party. She never really expressed that. If so, it was outweighed by her need or felt obligation to train her replacement. So yes I was put second or lower. She still had three more days of work there following the party. It wasn't reasonable for her to call in sick her last four days and I was sure he would show up to her work at a minimum on the party and possibly more and he did.

I did not tell her she could not go. One reason is I am tired of having to tell her everything and want to see her make correct decisions on her own. It burned me in this case.

AP was not in town for the week. When I say he worked in another office, the other office is only about a 40 minute drive from her office and he lives about 15 minutes farther from his office. All in the same county. So they both live and work in the same county. If they want to hook up they easily could make it happen.

Calling in sick the day of the party,doesn't mean she had to call in sick the following 3 days.

I understand why you didn't tell her not to go. At this point,you shouldn't have to,and after awhile of asking or telling, it becomes painful and degrading. She should want to put you first. I'm sorry she doesn't.

Sir. With the deepest respect to you and your pain. You are waiting for her to change? Change how? Change from what to what?

People's personalities are fixed by the time they are in adulthood and real change is very very hard. What kinds of change are you looking for? That she gets it? That she realizes that there is a sickness within her?

I know the word affair is shorthand for a lot of behavior, but you really need to think outside the box here. Most affairs are about broken people who see the partner as someone who fills a hole in them. LTAs usually have some level of limerence or affection or sexual longing or whatever you want to call it.

I don't see what your wife did for four years as an affair. I see it as a denial of self. True self debasement. Can you possibly believe that the OM does not have utter contempt for her. Can you possibly believe that others in the workplace are unaware of what she was doing?

And yet she claims that what she did was "control." Seriously?

She needs to reframe the narrative and see her behavior for what it was. It wasn't about control or love or affection or regard or guilty pleasure. It was spending four years on her knees.

Until she starts dealing with the demons within her, she is not going to exhibit any behavior that makes you feel like she is "changing."

And finally, what is in it for you in this relationship? Do you take any pleasure at all in her presence? Does she feed your ego properly? Do you even like her?

All I see on your posts is immeasurable pain. I don't see any progress. Have you even entertained the idea of life without this albatross of abuse around your neck?

[This message edited by longsadstory1952 at 9:50 AM, November 18th (Wednesday)]

We have all seen this person his WW is, she shall come up with every excuse as to why she must do something that causes harm (goto to a party).

She will when pressured endlessly speak about the "work" she does or is doing on herself, in reality, it simply a stalling or limiting tactic.

She will speak about her progress, when in reality they are incremental in nature at best, more often than not they are illusionary.

She is who is, she has shown you the value she places upon you as a person. Her valuation of YOU is less than her APs or image.

You may choose to be passive and accept this or you make changes, but do not pretend you are doing anything but accepting her disrespect and devaluation.

You cannot be a man if you are unwilling to act like one, and she cannot act like a wife if you do not demand it of her (shouldn't need to, in reality, however, she is who she is, and you have allowed it).

If you did not teach your children how to behave would they behave in a preferred manner?

I don't know if she ever considered not going to the party. She never really expressed that.

Two red flags here (and at this stage, you should not have any red flags if your WW were truly remorseful);

1. If she did not 'ever considered not going', it shows that she is not putting in any effort.

2. At this stage, she should be communicating to you like she has never done before, more communication would be preferable to less...

I did not tell her she could not go.

... and so you shouldn't. You are correct in your thinking and approach.

One reason is I am tired of having to tell her everything and want to see her make correct decisions on her own.

... again, correct approach.

It burned me in this case.

I would beg to differ on this. You have been given the gift of seeing how much your WS values you.

Edited to change tone of item 2.

[This message edited by RocketRaccoon at 12:25 AM, November 19th (Thursday)]

LSS,

You have probably hit this situation the closest. The more I learn the more pathetic it seems. She sold her soul to get feel goods from someone who didn't care about her and would say or do whatever he needed to to keep his bj's coming. Sad to think that was my wife who I loved. How do you fall so low? I have a hard time understanding this. He rarely made her "O" and seemed only interested in himself. How did my wife fall for that?

He made her feel like she was attractive and desirable, that she could please a man, especially a young man, not a broken down husband. He would say or do anything to keep on the hook and she bought it. I thought she was smarter than that, but I guess not. She allowed herself to be abused at my expense.

What kinds of change are you looking for? That she gets it? That she realizes that there is a sickness within her?

Yes, that is exactly what I am looking for.

Most affairs are about broken people who see the partner as someone who fills a hole in them. LTAs usually have some level of limerence or affection or sexual longing or whatever you want to call it.

She is broken and was looking for something to fill that hole. I don't think limerence or sexual longing had anything to do with it. She needed to feel good about herself. No matter how bad he treated her, she felt like he couldn't stay away and felt she was desirable, sad.

Can you possibly believe that the OM does not have utter contempt for her. Can you possibly believe that others in the workplace are unaware of what she was doing?

No, I am sure he thought she was a cheap piece he could exploit. I am sure the workplace knew what was going on. I am sure they couldn't hide it and that he couldn't help but brag.

Until she starts dealing with the demons within her, she is not going to exhibit any behavior that makes you feel like she is "changing.

I totally agree.

All I see on your posts is immeasurable pain. I don't see any progress. Have you even entertained the idea of life without this albatross of abuse around your neck?

There is a lot of that. I see progress. Not enough but some. Yes I have, I don't like it but I see it.

You cannot be a man if you are unwilling to act like one,

You can do unmentionable things to yourself, you are not helping.

Rocket, yes I expect more

[This message edited by achilles1101 at 12:37 AM, November 20th (Friday)]

She is broken and was looking for something to fill that hole. I don't think limerence or sexual longing had anything to do with it. She needed to feel good about herself. No matter how bad he treated her, she felt like he couldn't stay away and felt she was desirable, sad.

This describes almost all cheating and cheaters to some level. It isn't just your WW that felt this way and used someone who "couldn't stay away" as validation; it's most. And the OM exploited that? Of course because that is validation from the other side of the same equation, the other type of cheater motivation. It's the yin yang. We all get our validation in one of these two ways, unless we get it the best way--just happy with ourselves in general.

You feel powerful because you can control a relationship.

Or you feel valuable because someone cares enough to control you.

You feel impprtant because someone listens whenever you talk.

Or you feel valuable because someone chooses to talk to you when they could talk to others.

You feel powerful because you can "get some."

Or you feel valuable because you have something that someone actually wants.

You feel attractive because you can talk someone into having sex with you.

Or you feel attractive because someone was willing to cheat, lie, compromise their morals TO have sex with you.

You feel complimented because someone agrees to go out with you.

Or you feel flattered that they asked.

Different situations, personalities, or times in our life bring different types of taker/giver validation, but "getting something" from someone is just one type of validation; having something that someone wants, being pursued, is the other type of validation. And cheating validation revolves around both of these forms, whether it was a serial cheater, an LTA or a one time thing. BOTH people feel validated by the risk (along with feeling disgusting and immoral, but that's pushed away to focus on the needed message of value) and acquiescing.

The whole thing is disgusting and pathetic, Achilles. But your WW was in it for the exact same ego kibbles as every other WW, no worse and no better. And the OM was in it for the exact same ego kibbles as every other OM, no worse and no better. But it was all about the external and additional validation. Those who thrive on external validation or need it to survive some inner crisis will not be validated by an already stable R or M; the validation needs to come from either new sources like serial cheaters or constant risks like LTAs. Stability does not breed ego kibbles. A stable relationship is two people mostly providing their own ego kibbles and not expecting the M to do it for them. The M is icing on the cake but not a source of continual "look at how amazing I am."

I am very sorry for what you are going through, and it is true that she needs to see the monster that she was, the pathetic and broken woman she probably still is. And she needs to own every corner of that truth for you to feel like she is starting to fill that emptiness the right way. That's what is so unsafe about the unremorseful--how can they fix what they still want to hide and forget about? Every time they won't talk, won't discuss, won't condemn something, it leaves you with an image of a big, empty hole you're both jumping over in that moment, a hole big enough to swallow you both up yet again. You feel the danger in that moment, the darkness lurking because they yet again "don't want to talk about it right now." It's like a dark cloud passes overhead because we know that a willingness to talk and talk and talk about those dark places and admit them is the first visible sign of meaningful change. I hope she gets there soon.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 4:39 AM, November 20th (Friday)]

What I am looking for is that soul searching that can result in real change. Can she get there? I don't know. I am willing to wait and see.

"Willing to wait and see". How long will you wait? Time is linear. Once a day has passed, you never get it back. At present, your WW shows zero signs of having the desire or ability to do the work to achieve R. Meanwhile, your life is passing you by. Ten years from now, which Achilles is going to be staring you down in the mirror? The beat down dog who is still whimpering in the corner, waiting to see if she might show a glimmer of "real change"?

SI is about getting out of infidelity, not mucking about in it like a hog in a wallow. There is a ton of crowd-sourced wisdom about infidelity on this board. Based on that wisdom, the best way to find out whether your WW will ever "get it", make changes, do the work, is to detach and move on. Do NOT suggest one single rule, one single limit or guideline or measure of recompense. Simply tell her you won't share her with her fantasy life and that you are giving her the gift of letting her pursue it, since she so obviously wants it.

If she wants you, she will come after you and offer rules, limits, guidelines, measures of recompense. If shes doesn't do that, she never wanted you, and you can know you made the right decision to leave a marriage with a woman who doesn't desire you.

I get all your points. Totally. You are waiting and watching and hoping for her to show you that she is returning to normal, and that this is the glue that is keeping you together.

On a day to day basis, do you feel honored? Does she meet your needs? Do you like being around her? Do you find her a source of intellectual stimulation? Is she empathetic to you? Do you look forward to being with her when you get back from work?

If the answers to at least some of these questions is yes, then I understand your reasons for not putting her out in the street.

The one real question is how does she feel about you. From your posts, it appears that she claims she loves you, but her demonstration of that has been lacking. It appears that she is defensive and angry about having to deal with this, and lashes out at you and is not patient with your dealing with her betrayal.

Has anyone, including you, gotten through to her that this is counterproductive?

I won’t belabor this. I think in any relationship the good times have to seriously outweigh the bad times. Are you getting there?

I had a friend who once put it bluntly. You know you are ready to divorce when you are willing to live in a cave to get away from the person. It’s clear you are not there.

As you continue on your life journey don’t let yourself trade off your needs for peace and quiet. I’m not saying this is happening, but you should never feel like she is doing you a favor by letting you remain in her life. She should be thanking you every night for not leaving.

[This message edited by longsadstory1952 at 7:15 AM, November 20th (Friday)]

This describes almost all cheating and cheaters to some level. It isn't just your WW that felt this way and used someone who "couldn't stay away" as validation; it's most. And the OM exploited that? Of course because that is validation from the other side of the same equation, the other type of cheater motivation. It's the yin yang. We all get our validation in one of these two ways, unless we get it the best way--just happy with ourselves in general.

I guess it makes sense in some way. I really don't get it. You have a husband that loves you, but isn't perfect, kids, a house, career and you risk it all? One thing I don't understand at all is why put up with him treating you poorly? In this case he would get what he wanted and then ignore her for a couple of weeks. Then when he wanted a BJ, he would give her attention and get what he wanted. Over and over. She even had to tell him he needed to pay more attention to her when he came back around following his first D Day. Why put up with that? She got little sexually from this thing. Not nothing, but the sex was focused on him. How do you get to a point where this is acceptable? How low do you have to go? She really doesn't have a "good" answer for that. I got she had nothing invested in him so it was easier to overlook and she thought he was feeling guilty, right.

We have had a lot of in depth, very painful discussions. She is less defensive now. She gives me painful details, although sometimes they first come out as very general. I think IC and the private messaging here is starting to have an affect.

Some of my biggest frustrations are I just don't understand why she did what she did. She says she loved me but had an affair. She says she felt guilty but didn't stop. A lot of other things she felt or did I don't understand either. I wonder if I will ever understand, it seems beyond me. I could never do or feel like she did.

On a day to day basis, do you feel honored? Does she meet your needs? Do you like being around her? Do you find her a source of intellectual stimulation? Is she empathetic to you? Do you look forward to being with her when you get back from work?

It varies by the day on all counts. Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

The one real question is how does she feel about you. From your posts, it appears that she claims she loves you, but her demonstration of that has been lacking. It appears that she is defensive and angry about having to deal with this, and lashes out at you and is not patient with your dealing with her betrayal.

Has anyone, including you, gotten through to her that this is counterproductive?

She is getting better, less defensive and angry. I think IC and the private messaging is helping. I am not sure I am helping. I still am struggling with all this and and not really helping anyone.

I don't feel like she is doing me a favor by staying. I could use a little more thanking for not leaving

Why wait to do recovery on her phone? If it would make you feel better in any way then do it now.

So he sent her dick pics but you already know that. Does she not want you to see how hung he is are something. Just run the phone recovery and try to find what you are looking for.

does it work?

Yes I already know what he sent her, I think. There are subtleties I want to know. I need to do it now.

[This message edited by achilles1101 at 11:55 PM, November 20th (Friday)]

Does it work?

I believe it does sometimes, maybe 50/50 chance of it working but you have nothing to lose. I personally don't remember how it's done but I have seen it explained in detail here on surviving infidelity.

Some type of recovery app I'm thinking?

Maybe someone else will chime in to explain.

I don't feel like she is doing me a favor by staying. I could use a little more thanking for not leaving

I think this is quite a key point.

The very fact that she is not doing this, indicates that she is still very much wrapped up with herself. You are not a consideration. It is even worse if she considered it, but deemed it not worth her time nor effort.

What helps to confirm this, was her lack of consideration of how you would feel about her attending her 'farewell' party.

Your end game seems to be 'stay in the M no matter what the cost', rather than 'to get out of Infidelity'. By predetermining the path, you may not get to the destination you should be heading for... which is get the heck out of Infidelity.

Achilles

I am just curious. So now she has made sure she has had plenty of contact with this scumbag. And it appears he is still in pursuit mode.

So she starts a new job. What makes you think that some of her friends from the old job will not stay in contact with her ( I'd say thats 100% going to happen). So whats you position going to be when she tells you some of the old crew are going out for drinks. You gonna believe for one second he will not out of the clear blue sky show up.???

It does not take a rocket scientist for her to have know she had no business to go partying where he would certainly be. You should not have said a fucking word.

And like Hellfire I believe said, you were told exactly how she could have gotten out of that party if she had any desire to in enough time to insist on it. You were just afraid to demand anything, even if you should not have had to.

That has nothing to do with D or R. It has to do with respect. She has none for you.

And like Hellfire I believe said, you were told exactly how she could have gotten out of that party if she had any desire to in enough time to insist on it. You were just afraid to demand anything, even if you should not have had to.

He shouldn't have had to for obvious reasons. She shouldn't have wanted to go,knowing OM would be there,and know how this was hurting her husband.

He shouldn't have had to,because she has said,and he has made it clear,she watches this thread like a hawk. She not only has seen his pain,but she has read about it. And she saw the suggestion that she call in sick. She chose to go to the party, and basically expects him to suck it up.

She continues to feed him the shit sandwich. And he continues to eat it. And will continue to do just that, until he finally says no more. And means it. And takes action. Only then will she realize she can't continue this her way. Maybe she will suddenly take drastic action to save her marriage. Or not. Either way, he will finally start to heal.

Op, you need to get to the point that in order to save your marriage, you are willing to lose it. You must learn that you need to save yourself, because she's not going to be the hero here.

[This message edited by HellFire at 5:43 AM, November 23rd (Monday)]