SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

The number of fights between people that "love" love each other is so common, it is a cliche. Love can't even temper some from cheating, much less ensuring the tempering of arguments. Again, whatever love means.

This is a great point/response! Thank you, DIFM.

cancuncrushed, I am so sorry you've had to endure all of that. It is bad enough to be betrayed, but to have all of that piled in is just terrible. I hope that you have a much brighter future, and can get to a good place with your children again.

Thank you. It has been supriising . I thought my list was the right thing to do. I never dreamed these results would happen.

It’s a new world. One put on me. It can only get better. 😊

[This message edited by cancuncrushed at 9:13 AM, June 15th (Monday)]

While it's clear you're triggered over things in the past that have nothing to do with me

This type of comment is so infuriating. It is possible that she is triggered by you and your insulting and ridiculous question. It's very arrogant to assume that you know through a few internet posts what someone you don't know is feeling and why. Sometimes when someone reacts negatively to something you've said and done, you need to look at yourself. If all you were truly trying to do was get answers to your question, you would have graciously apologized for upsetting landclark and gone off to start your own thread. What makes you think you have the right to stake claim to someone else's thread? Arrogance? Entitlement? Too much ego?

I did not use "non-traditional" in the correct sense, but I did qualify that in parenthesis.

Unless

Your qualification does not provide any insight into what you meant. All it says is that you lack the proper word(s). You do not explain why you mean.

Again, assuming judgment of something when no such thing has been said. Please, show me where someone passed judgment on open Ms. Anyone with any sense knows that the general accepted, traditional, definition of marriage is between a man and a woman and expects fidelity. It's in the "traditional " vows.

Are you implying that there is no general expectation of fidelity in a M between same-sex people because it's not traditional? Why would you assume that?

If all you were truly trying to do was get answers to your question, you would have graciously apologized for upsetting landclark and gone off to start your own thread. What makes you think you have the right to stake claim to someone else's thread? Arrogance? Entitlement? Too much ego?

Go back and read the exchange. If she had been the least bit respectful in any of her posts this might have happened. She attacked me immediately--calling my post "stupid" and saying I "wanted drama." More followed. Totally uncalled for. It wasn't even about the thread.

So much depends on your spouse and their choices.

I get what you saying here. What we do will depend, somewhat, on other people. However, the ultimate decisions about our lives depend on us. I don't think anyone is suggesting to stay with someone who is still abusing and mistreating you and/or still cheating.

This post, to me, was about why you stay with an apparently remorseful cheater when you don't feel love for him anymore. There are plenty of perfectly valid to stay in a seemingly loveless M.

Another thing to consider is that feelings come and go in any LTR. It seems to me that a lot of people don't understand that M isn't happily ever after. It takes a lot of acceptance and understanding. People change over time. The longer the time, the greater the change.

I certainly have changed in the last 20+ years that I've been with my H. I've become more radical, less conventional or mainstream. I always was a bit on the margins. As I get older, I find I care less and less what other people think of me and am more inclined to go my own way.

I'm sure that's bothersome to my H. He is a very traditional, conventional person. Straight-laced, follows the rules. He's in the military because he prefers having very clear rules and expectations. No thinking outside the box. He fits in very well. Me, not so much. We had come up with pet names for each other. I called him Biff, and he called me Moonbeam.

Hardknocks, here is her first response to your first post.

Did you mean to post that here, HardKnocks? Because I don’t think anybody here has said they have a non-traditional marriage. If you’re talking about people staying together for more than just love, then i don’t see that as non-traditional, and I very much expect that he have sex, or any physical contact of a sexual/romantic nature, with just me.

I don't see "stupid" anywhere. I don't see an attack. I see a respectful response. It wasn't until after your smart-ass response to that that she got nasty.

I thought your post was ridiculous before I read any of landclark's responses. My first question to you was going to ask that you define "traditional" or "nontraditional". You still haven't done that. Instead, you continue to argue that you are being appropriate and are the victim here. Again, maybe take a close look at yourself.

Cocoplus5nuts I have contacted the Administrators.

I'll let them handle this from this point out.

HK, just going to leave this here from the guidelines.

ON TOPIC: Respect the original posters' intent and avoid threadjacking. Feel free to start new topics to discuss general subject matter in other threads, but do not refer to specific topics or threads outside of their original location.

[This message edited by landclark at 9:56 AM, June 15th (Monday)]

Great post thank you! My reasons are very similar to you, except we dont have kids. Also what other posters have said, 39 years of shared history, plus my mum, who is 90 and has been disabled for 20 years, adores him like a son. It would crush hed to realise the truth, and he continues to do a huge amount to support her, and me in my caring role.

I have only told two close friends, one totally gets it and would support me either way. The other just tells me I am plain wrong every single time we speak.

It took me a lot of courage to do my first post on here, and I really felt a bit attacked by the responses, like I was an idiot for staying.

No one on here should have to justify their decisions.

Hardknocks, Please start your own thread with your topic of interest and let this thread get back on track.

No need to start a new thread and no worries!

MangledHeart, thank you.

Pizzatheaction, thank you for sharing. I have a similar experience. One friend supports me, where the other thinks anything less than her make believe fairytale love story is ridiculous (the truth is it's all a cover). It gets to the point where you don't even want to confide in people. Don't want to be honest.

39 years is a long time (I am not even at 15 yet!), and helping to take care of your mum is huge. It's awesome that you can both be there for her.

No one on here should have to justify their decisions.

Exactly!

I am glad I brought up this topic and that so many people responded with similar feelings.

Before I got married and had kids, I was the perfect wife and mother. I had all the answers! 😂🤣

The laws of nature found that to be completely ridiculous and started throwing me a lot of curveballs. I no longer trust my judgment on marriage or raising children because every time I am certain on something, I am proven wrong. I am now certain that I am not certain about anything. That's the only certainty I am willing to embrace anymore.

When I had my RA, I was positive that I wanted out of my M. I didn't. When I filled out my D paperwork, I was positive that I could never love or respect my H again. But I did. I would have told you that I would absolutely leave if I was ever cheated on, yet I didn't. And I would have also said at certain points in my life that there is no reason to stay married to someone when there is no romantic love. But there is. And I am hoping that romantic love might return and stay.

The only thing that I ever, EVER encourage people to do is to stand up for themselves, to feel respected, to demand proper treatment. I cannot see how this would ever be a bad thing, but I also do not know how that would look for each person or what kind of time frame for this respectful treatment. I do think bad decisions definitely harm our kids, but I am not always sure what the good decision would be in every circumstance. I thought I knew--before--back when I knew all sorts of things about things I knew nothing about. For example, arguing in front of your kids is obviously toxic (I've done it plenty, I am sad to say) but is the good decision leaving the M to stop the arguing or working on your own (read: me, Owning It Now) toxic need to yell, defend yourself, or be right in a disagreement? Is the good decision changing and growing up, or is it leaving the M?

I used to think that D solved all relationship problems, but what if two people learning and growing and changing is a better example of standing up for your dignity than divorce? Not gonna work for everyone, but these ideas have challenged my notions of good and bad marriages. (WTF? So vague! Such black and white categories that shame us since nothing is all good or bad!!!) I am everyday faced with, "Teach me more, universe. I'm paying attention, I promise."

HardKnocks, unless a specific agreement is made NOT to be monogamous, then yes, monogamy is expected.

If you were making a legitimate point about whether marriages that are not based on love and the linkage to sexual fidelity, I agree that a new thread would likely be appropriate. Additionally, given that marriages here have suffered through infidelity, it's a pretty big stretch to figure that monogamy would no longer be part of it given that this forum is about fidelitous marriages. Think about your implications; so if a WS cheats and the BS decides to stay even if there's no more romantic love, that's suddenly a free license for the WS to cheat? That's a ridiculous premise.

While I personally cannot understand staying in a relationship that no longer contains romantic love, everyone has their own reasons and everyone gets to decide what is valid and workable for them. The only thing that should be universal in relationships is informed consent. Beyond that, everything should be negotiated to suit the people who are involved in the relationship.

HardKnocks, yes, if i were to go outside the marriage for sex, even though we’re not having sex, it would be cheating and (I assume) a dealbreaker for him.

OTOH, I don’t believe I would care if he were getting it elsewhere; I don’t have personal feelings for him so I can’t conceive of why it would bother me—but I do realize that I would have no way of being sure of that unless it were to happen.

PSTI, I was just thinking about people I hadn't seen on here in awhile, and you crossed my mind. I don't read through the posts as much as I once did, so not sure if you've been active recently. I hope you're doing well, and thank you for your post.

DF -

I don’t have personal feelings for him so I can’t conceive of why it would bother me

It would bother me very much if my WH decided it was ok to hit it elsewhere. My feelings have changed, but I don't necessarily lack all personal feelings so my situation is a little different than yours in that way (and there is no judgement there at all, sounds like you've gone to hell and back). I also know it would bother my WH if I stepped out.

Part of that is definitely as PSTI said, informed consent, which I didn't get with his cheating. We do still have sex, but if he decided he wanted it (sex, online or emotionally) elsewhere or worse actually pursued it behind my back, then I would consider that cheating and would exit the marriage. He in no way gets a pass here when his actions are what lead my feelings here to begin with.

so if a WS cheats and the BS decides to stay even if there's no more romantic love, that's suddenly a free license for the WS to cheat? That's a ridiculous premise.

Exactly!

I know my WH is very much hoping that the romantic, deep love comes back. I am more skeptical, but I am also not completely opposed to it. If it happens organically, it's not like I will shut it down. He however still has work to do. It wasn't that long ago that he decided to have inside jokes with a woman I told him I wasn't comfortable with. I don't see me letting in all the romantic feelings until I am truly comfortable that he has made sustainable change. I do think he is way ahead of where he was a year ago, however, so I give him credit for heading in the right direction.

Also I think it's important for the skeptics (not directed to anybody specifically) to remember that I don't have my WH tied up in the basement. I am in no way forcing him to stay and I am in no way lying about where I am at with things. He is very informed on how I feel, and also reads my posts. He has his reasons for staying just as much as I have mine, and neither of us need to defend that, entertain ridiculous questions, or try to be shoved into a box that makes others comfortable with our decisions.

[This message edited by landclark at 5:17 PM, June 15th (Monday)]

OwningItNow, before all of this I also had ideas of marriage, divorce, what was good and what was bad, etc. Infidelity changes a lot.

LC,

I do have to reiterate that I don’t know for sure how I’d feel about it. I realize the fallacy of trying to assume feelings about events that haven’t happened. I also feel I need to say that my H isn’t a cheater and I have no reason to think he’d do that.

I totally respect and will comply with his feelings about expecting fidelity from me because we are married, even though it’s not a relationship. I don’t remain faithful because I love him (I don’t) or “feel married” (I don’t), but because it’s the right thing to do. Deciding to cheat almost 11 years ago was the worst decision ever just for the sake of my personal integrity and morality and one I have no intention of repeating.