SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

You know what's so offensive about these threads?... it's that women are objectified as sex acts. Their sexuality is valued as commodity with this act being rated as more valuable/meaningful than that one. But the misogyny is camouflaged by the "emasculated male ego", so we're not supposed to notice it.

Women get every goddamned bit as upset as men do when we're cheated on and betrayed.

Their sexuality is valued as commodity with this act being rated as more valuable/meaningful than that one.

Well, I'm sure you won't like this.. But, I can't disagree with you, it is like sex is being viewed as a commodity, because, well, it is. And some acts are "rated" higher than others. We know all this because sex for money is a thing, and we know what acts command the highest premium (anal, in case you're wondering) and which are less valued. Now, let me state, I'm not saying this is RIGHT, but it is reality and it's not men that created this market, women set the "prices" and decide who gets what. They choose if a sexual encounter will occur and what will occur in that encounter in the vast majority of cases. It's not "right" anymore than a man's earning potential is a "good" measure for determining a husband, but people do it all the time. Or height, or "alpha" or a full head of hair, or whatever else, a lot of which is not at all under anyone control, all that goes into the value equation. It's ugly, of course it is, but it's also reality, the "sexual marketplace" exists and we're all aware of it to some degree or another.

Women get every goddamned bit as upset as men do when we're cheated on and betrayed.

Now this, I have absolutely no doubt at all your correct. But, I've only a few times seen women upset about THIS issue. This, at least in my experience, appears to be much more a male than female issue. And the reason is quite obvious, because this one of the compromises that a lot of men make (or making it personal, I made) going into marriage. I love her enough to give up some sexual acts that I really do enjoy. Do some women make that same compromise? I'm sure they do, but it doesn't seem to be as common; these threads always slant hugely male with this particular "issue". And it was a compromise that was bulls**t! I never needed to give up that part of myself to be in this marriage, she just, for whatever reason, decided I wasn't worth it (and the AP was, on the 2nd "date").

But, I can't disagree with you, it is like sex is being viewed as a commodity, because, well, it is

Oh, I'm sure there are price lists for prostitutes. But guess what?... not all women are hookers. Maybe that comes as a surprise to you, I dunno.

Oh, I'm sure there are price lists for prostitutes. But guess what?... not all women are hookers. Maybe that comes as a surprise to you, I dunno.

It doesn't matter. Not all men are oil drillers either, doesn't mean that oil isn't a commodity. It can be bought, sold, priced, traded. Male sexuality is different, it basically has no price because there's no demand for it; in the stock market, they'd say "the bottom dropped out of it". :)

Because of prostitution, there's a pretty "transparent" market for sex which helps establish the relative value of different acts. Of course, you can, and most people do choose to give them away for free, but relating this to an affair, when you "give away" the high value acts, of course it matters and of course it's going to make the BS feel "less valued". Just like if I gave you a diamond and gave someone else a lump of coal, there's a transparent market for both of those things, and it's easy for someone to figure out the lump of coal is worth less than the diamond.

I guess, just wondering, are you saying this dynamic doesn't exist or shouldn't exist? If it's the 2nd, of course, I agree with you. If it's the first; do me this favor, what sexual acts do you think that men value the most? Or do they value them all the same? I suspect, if you're honest, we could all come up with general male "value list" and it would be pretty similar between all of us.

Let us remember that you cannot be emasculated, but you can certainly be disrespected. Nobody can make you feel something by behaving a certain way. You cannot allow the actions of anyone--spouse or otherwise--to define the way you see your own self. Their actions show who THEY are. They do not show who YOU are. Protect your own value and view of yourself. If someone disrespects you, you have every right to walk away from them and surround yourself with people who treat you with decency and kindness. But do not let other people define your view of yourself.

I do get frustrated with some of the posters on threads like this. My frustration comes from BW's who consistently go to war with the BH's because they simply CANNOT understand this pain.

I'm aware that some of this is from sexual abuse survivors and some from feminists who put a woman's "body autonomy" above all but in my opinion they totally discount a mans experiences. They totally disregard a mans pain as not worthy of consideration and will defend their position to the death.

I have seen some threads on this topic where it got really angry between BW's and BH's.

This is obviously this is an important topic to many BH's which is WHY is keeps coming up. To be dismissive of this topic is to say that YOU don't think their is ANY value in this discussion.

Well Ladies I am going to have to disagree with you on this! To a man this is one of the most IMPORTANT and PAINFUL aspects of the whole shit sandwich we are presented with.

If the topic is NOT that important to YOU, than maybe YOU can pass it by without dismissing the pain since you obviously do not have THIS problem!!!

There is supposed to be a "happy medium" that we reach with our marital partner a give and take to maintain a happy and satisfying marital sex life. When the WW blows that out of the water you HAVE to renegotiate the whole deal.

What we are looking for is empathy and a REASONAL way to help- rebalance the sexual relationship. OK sometimes we put things here a little harshly but when we go through this we are in an emotional wasteland and vent some.

I am probably one of the ones that have been the more blunt ones when I list my demands but then that is who I am. I don't dance around the subject.

My normal demands include that EVERYTHING she did with him I want ENTHUSIASTICLY and very SOON!!! If that doesn't happen than don't let the door hit you in the ass! Now this stance absolutely inflames some of the ladies on here and they have tried to explain how terrible that is for a woman and have likened it to marital rape. They tell me how "degraded she MUST feel being forced to do those HORRIBLE things that I want. They then try to tell me how "maybe she didn't enjoy it and ONLY DID IT TO PLEASE HIM!!! I can't expect her to go to those depth's of depravity for ME! To do so would breed discontent and "resentment" in my WW. If that happens I will destroy any chance at reconciliation.

Well guess what? If it DOSEN'T happen then there would be no chance of reconciliation anyway. I should worry about my WW's resentment well WHAT ABOUT MINE!

Now I have to qualify this with the fact that in my experience I was emotionally destroyed by a planned attack on my confidence because as she said "I couldn't divorce you while you were strong".

However that was 45yrs or so ago and it still hurts.

Now that I have thrown that grenade out there I'll sit back and just wait for the reaction.

JMO YMMV

How many times, in how many variations, does this need to be asked? If you aren't happy with your situation of what you did or didn't get and you don't have a partner willing to accommodate that or you aren't ok with it, divorce.

Until the certain misandric group of posters eventually understands the logical perspective.

I personally am not holding out much hope for it, they simply have too much an agenda or perhaps its simply baggage.

In my agreement with Pink, I did not mean to disparage or “pounce.” BFTG, I realize I’m not a man nor a BS and so I cannot entirely relate to the POV being discussed (although I can relate to having a sex partner who was a boring sad sack in, well, the sack).

My agreement with her post stems from the fact that, as I always say in these threads, if that is your (general “your”) situation, then there is no solution. If your sexual partner isn’t willing/just doesn’t want to/can’t prove his/her authenticity of desire, and it’s too important to you to let go, then what other action IS there to take aside from terminating the relationship and finding someone else who is more sexually compatible?

I’m sincerely sorry if I offended.

[This message edited by Darkness Falls at 8:51 PM, July 3rd (Friday)]

... they simply have too much an agenda or perhaps its simply baggage.

Not an agenda. Just the forlorn hope that females might possibly be viewed as people rather than sexual vending machines. The application of price tags on our sexuality is offensive.

I apologize for my OP. I realize now that it's a re-hash of the same-old same-old. I was trying to frame it more narrowly than "stuff the AP gets, the BH should get".

There's an active poster that brought this thought to mind. The poster seems like somebody who, "on paper", is a prime candidate for R. WW showing remorse, doing the work, etc. Yet the poster seems stuck. My impression is that a sticking point is the fact that what the WW did sexually with the AP is something the BH wishes he had gotten, but didn't. The conundrum there is that it is now impossible for the WW to recreate that with the BH, again due to circumstances beyond both of their control, even though she probably would if she could. So the BH finds himself resenting the fact that his WW gave the AP something he himself has long desired, knowing that if he stays with his WW, he can never experience.

Ruminating on how powerful this specific phenomenon can be.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 9:20 PM, July 3rd (Friday)]

BFTG you are at your private message limit. Could you correct this please.

Butforthegrace...you have nothing to apologize for Dear Sir . I see those threads similar to this one and I don't comment on them because they aren't relevant to me. But apparently these threads need to be posted. Just like when the new BWs come in here talking about how they must not be pretty enough...sexy enough...etc...or else their WHs wouldn't have strayed. These types of threads are posted regularly on here too. Even though it is a repeating issue...it doesn't mean it can't still be repeated!

This place is for people who are hurting to be able to come on here and find support . You are trying to help someone out and that is commendable that you opened this discussion up. I hope that BH may find some words of wisdom from this thread that will help him to heal .

Not an agenda. Just the forlorn hope that females might possibly be viewed as people rather than sexual vending machines. The application of price tags on our sexuality is offensive.

Really? You think there is so much pain, thought,and discussion about this topic because betrayed husbands are mad the vending machine didn't spit out what they ordered.

I simply do not understand this issue. I guess from what I am reading, it is because I am a woman.

I have never really bought into the fact that “men feel this way, and women feel that way“. I’m certain that if everyone on this site weighed in, there would be a good percentage of women who agreed with the underlying premise, and men who would take a different view.

I guess you could say that I am a “basic menu” sort of sexual person. Nothing to be proud of, OR ashamed of. There are some things I simply have zero interest in experiencing. But, conversely, I certainly have no judgment for anyone who enjoys the things I would not enjoy. Why would I? (Have judgment).

But I would totally and completely resent being set aside (as in divorced) because of my taste (or lack of taste) for certain sexual experiences.

I totally understand the heartache when our WSs give others something we would want, but are denied. My FWH did nothing (to my knowledge) sexually with the prostitute that he and I had not experienced with each other. But he did go on dating sites and talk and share about his “feelings” and made efforts to be helpful (I’m thinking a sort of KISA?) for other women.

Of course BETRAYAL was the issue that devastated, but the emotional support / connection he was willing / eager to share with these strangers was more hurtful to me than the blow job he got from the prostitute. Because he is TOTALLY UNWILLING to share himself with me emotionally.

Again, no judgement intended, but for me personally, I can’t comprehend the “if your H or W won’t give you sexually what you want, then just divorce them” point of view. Do people actually expect that their partner will completely fulfill EVERY desire? Is sex more important than other aspects of a marriage? Shared values, experiences, co-parenting, shared faith, etc.? Not for me.

I come from the diametrically opposite point of view …JMHO, but if my husband put my participating in something sexual that could hurt me physically and/or emotionally over our overall connection, or even the very entirety of our marriage...I would not only question the strength of the marriage, but also the reason to continue it.

It is such a shame that we are not always able to “vet” our potential partners more closely for shared interests in all things sexual, experiential, having to do with feelings and connection, and having to do with character and integrity. I’m sure all of us wish that we knew everything about our partner prior to making commitments to them, rather than afterwards.

Now that I think of it, and reread my post, I guess I am making the same point as the thread…just from the other perspective.

Maybe I am inadvertently perpetuating the gender presuppositions.

Due to my husband’s physical condition, we will never have sex again. But that is not what is most painful to me. What is most painful to me is that we will probably never have a truly non sexual intimacy / trust / respect for each other again. 😥

But am I going to decide that “I have needs” and “if he can’t meet them, I will sure as hell go find somebody who can”? Definitely not. I think that attitude would speak volumes about my depth as a person.

I’m beginning to wonder if this is support for OR a different view regarding this thread… Or just simply a t/j.

I guess the main purpose of this post was to say two things…

1) The point of view that a marriage is not worth continuing just because there was not a “full menu” of sexual options...well, it seems to me to be an entitled and possibly selfish point of view, and would make its own argument for the marriage not continuing.

and...what I never really even got around to expressing…

2) If a WS is truly remorseful, and expresses that their sexual behaviors with the AP were a result of an unhealthy perspective (of the motivation...not the act) AND they we’re/are feeling disgust about it... I cannot wrap my head around what justification the BS would have for pushing, and even requiring the same negative (for the WS) experience for them (the BS). Isn’t that pumping (excuse the expression) more negativity into the relationship?

Again, isn’t the fact of the “betrayal, the big issue here? Not so much whether it was a certain sex act, that was or was not withheld from you, OR a non-sexual intimacy that was withheld from you?

If we have decided to make an effort to repair something so important and monumental as a marriage/partnership… Does it seem prudent that we would expect our every wish be “granted”? Is that superficial? I’m honestly asking.

I hope I’ve made it clear that I have no desire to besmirch anyone here.

I have certainly seen these situations posted from the viewpoint of the BW just as many times but for some reason they don't gain traction. The threads are lucky to get one full page. Similarly with the BW whose WH suddenly develop ED problems after DDay. You don't get the same level of vitriol, of demanding he get help sexually satisfying the BW or get out no it's all nice kind posts about how to help the WH and nothing about the BW frustration.

There is truly a double standard here when it comes to attitudes about sexual betrayal and it's either gotten worse or it's just so part of SI now that I expect a thread every couple of months.

1) The point of view that a marriage is not worth continuing just because there was not a “full menu” of sexual options...well, it seems to me to be an entitled and possibly selfish point of view, and would make its own argument for the marriage not continuing.

Change "sexual" to "emotional" above and see if that changes your viewpoint. If there was a BH who was incredibly caring, doting, emotionally open with his AP and not his wife, and then, after d-day, continues to shut his wife out emotionally. Would it seem "entitled and selfish" for the BW in that situation to end the marriage?

I can’t comprehend the “if your H or W won’t give you sexually what you want, then just divorce them” point of view. Do people actually expect that their partner will completely fulfill EVERY desire? Is sex more important than other aspects of a marriage? Shared values, experiences, co-parenting, shared faith, etc.? Not for me.

Well, you have to remember, this thread is usually framed as "she did X for the AP and won't do X for me". So, if that's in fact what we're talking about, then I'd change what you said above, "Do people actually expect their partner, after and affair, will put at least as much effort into sexually fulfilling their desires as they put into filling the APs?" to which I'd answer, "yes", or not speaking for others, "yes, I do".

Is sex more important than other aspects of the M? This is a long involved discussion, but eventually, in my mind, winds up in a "yes" and "no" answer. Yes, because it's the only thing that's exclusive the the marriage, it's the only thing that we can't get somewhere else if we're unhappy or unfilled. It's the "line" between a best friend or a close personal relationship and an intimate one. And no because it's a small part of the relationship, you spend hours upon hours together every day and have sex for minutes, so without the things you mentioned, a relationship will not work. But, overall, for me, the answer generally leans "yes", it is that important. Using one of your examples above, if my wife didn't want to share some other experience with me, let's say hang gliding, I could still hang glide with my friends. Or go by myself. The experience isn't lost to me, I can still have it within the confines of a marriage and likely without upsetting my wife at all. If she doesn't share my faith, I can still share it with others when I go to church, also, entirely within the confines of marriage. Now, of course, it would be better/best if we were entirely compatible on all issues, but of those mentioned above, I'd certainly choose sexual compatibility above the others because of it's exclusivity.

I have certainly seen these situations posted from the viewpoint of the BW just as many times but for some reason they don't gain traction. The threads are lucky to get one full page. Similarly with the BW whose WH suddenly develop ED problems after DDay.

I've told BW's "he needs to go to the doctor" at least a few times. ED is a medical problem, so I do think it's a bit different, that would be like us jumping all over a woman with TMJ who wouldn't give her husband BJ's but gave them to the AP; while I'd tell that BH "he needs to get her to a doctor" it's different than "I just don't feel like it". That said, I agree with you, and if there really are all these "he did for her but not me" sexually threads out there, I've just missed a lot of them, but I have and would tell a woman the same thing I'm saying here. Also, the reason you may be seeing a limited number of posts there, I think that we all kind of agree. Does anyone here think that it's OK for a WH to go down on his AP and then refuse that to his wife? I sure don't, so, if a newly BW posted that, a few of us would all say "unacceptable" and "tell him to get it together or get out" and it would turn into an echo chamber. If there are ever men defending a WH doing that, please, by all means, send up the "bat signal" and I (and I suspect a lot of others) will come into that thread to blow it up.

If a WS is truly remorseful, and expresses that their sexual behaviors with the AP were a result of an unhealthy perspective (of the motivation...not the act) AND they we’re/are feeling disgust about it... I cannot wrap my head around what justification the BS would have for pushing, and even requiring the same negative (for the WS) experience for them (the BS).

I agree with you here, but, the thing is, there's just no way to know. WS's lie. Let's take my situation, no need for a hypothetical here. My W said she didn't do a particular sex act early in our relationship. I was very disappointed, it used to be one of my favorite things, but I accepted it and moved on. In her A, she did it with the AP, and then actually referred to it in messages to him, telling him she couldn't wait for the next time. After d-day, she continued to withhold it and eventually did try the "negative experience" thing. Well, now we're in a bit of a quandary here aren't we? Because I (exhibit A) have this 3 pages of messages with you and the AP that seem to indicate that you didn't have a negative experience at all, in fact, you looked forward to it. So, you enjoy it with him and not me? Reasonable explanation, I've certainly held back some things from women in the past because I wasn't as attracted to them, but completely unacceptable for R.

There are, of course, exceptions. The AP forced that act. The WS was intoxicated. Lots of "rape" or "near rape" type situations that we could dream up that would, for sure, change my general stance on this. But we all know that's not the "normal" here, it's much more "I won't do this with my H/W because he/she doesn't deserve it" and then "The AP is worth it and I'll do it for them". And that, no matter what it is, sex, emotional closeness, gifts.. It's just unacceptable, and frankly, should remain that way; not something we struggle to rationalize and excuse when it happens to involve one particular thing (again, because we all seem to wholly agree when it's anything given to the AP and denied from the H/W and it's NOT sex).

I had to correct and recorrect this post lol

#####warning triggers####

I rarely post. I'm more of a lurker.

I would like to add a different perspective, if I may.

A bit of background though... I'm a mad hatter. If that disqualifies me morally then please disregard or delete this post.

I did it. It hurt. I hurt. I wouldn't don't again... but some things happened, and I'll share them intimately so maybe it can shed some light.

I was cheated on 2x times and I was angry. A woman in a failing relationship approached me. Like walked up and kissed me with the pretense of " she treats you with so much disrespect and your sexy" wth but I fell for it. My damaged ego had crumbled and myself respect crumbled. I wanted an exit affair.

My ap and I did everything.... I mean everything. Her husband when he realized it was to this point even jumped in to participate.. trying to live out some of his "fantasized acts" with her and I, before their demise. She still denied him, only used him to satisfy her own desires with me 《---- please note this point. Her desires with me.

My wife asked me to come back. Later during the r stage of my wife and I.... during one of our copulation, she asked me:

A. What acts did I do with her (ap).

B. If I would do those with her (ww).

C. Why didn't I just bring it up with her

D. After I reminded her I did and she didn't listen.

E. She then proceeded to demand I do those acts with her, I told I I would but not included a 3rd party after seeing the destructive nature from my own experience.

F. We did those acts. She told me to stop at a certain point.

I stopped immediately, AND I started

To cry... WTH

.. I cried. She asked me why was I crying. I responded that I didn't want to do most of those things with her. They were demeaning, and she was my woman, not my fantasy!

Well. We still do some of those things, but are very open about our dark thoughts. The communication has been wonderful.

I quit the affair when I realized how crazy the mh thing was. I wanted no part. The affair sex was not about love or connection per say it was about fatasy selfish sex. It was cheap (and shallow) with her, but now those fantasies are a healthy emotional connection between my wife and I. She genuinely enjoys them.

I realized:

(From the days of playing the field)

A.If a girl (or guys for some) I was intrested, and seemed to reciprocate my feelings denied me her number and gave it to someone else in front of me, that would be a clear indicator of lack of interest. The signal would be clear, I must have been mistaken.

B.If a girl(or guy for some) I was intrested, and was reciprocating my feelings and we had been dating a while and she refused to kiss me and kissed a customer on a the cheek? I should disengage quickly.

C. If a girl (or guy for some)I was intrested, and was reciprocating my feelings and we had been dating a while and I find out she gave a specific sexual act to a male friend, most here would advise to gtfo no? Even if she seems to be repentant?

D If I am married and my wife tells me

That she loved certain acts with others and denied me for many years because i was special and she didn't want to "dirty" our relationship, and she does it with an ap? Wait a min. Your telling me she shouldn't do it because she might diary our relationship? I can't predicate my gift of r with absolute openness of emotional and physical connection because its some sort of degrading my partner into a sort of sexual vending machine? This point to me seems like a double standard. I should not feel like I am not being male chauvinist pig for doing so.

Rather than being a sexual thing it's more of relational point (at least to me). If my partner, in an agreed monogamous relationship, decided to give something away that we would both agree stays in in the boundary our relationship. If when the bs asks for it to be brought back into the relationship and they decide to withhold it, that doesn't look like r.

That looks like more warning signs of compartmentalization. You would expect honest, truth, openness, and emotional/physical connection with everything. If I ask for passwords, I should get it no? In a marriage, privacy is a non sequitur. How much more to a bs? Financial, location, and the like? So why should sex, emotional or anything else that was given away in betrayl be off the table when it was the core reason the bs felt so hurt?

Not an agenda. Just the forlorn hope that females might possibly be viewed as people rather than sexual vending machines. The application of price tags on our sexuality is offensive.

And that IS the agenda in your own words and why I said I had little hope for your side of this discussion. You simply have too much baggage to see the obvious.

[This message edited by blahblahblahe at 7:31 AM, July 4th (Saturday)]

Ive seen over time here where BWs don't really like the relationship that some of the BHes here have with the WWs. Even seen the question raised why they're so well liked over some BWs.

This thread and others like it answer it. This example sums it up:

BH: If she won't give to me what she gave to him, then it's time for D.

BW: You see us as nothing but sex objects, nothing more than a hole! You can't make her do things she doesn't want to do! And stop giving ultimatums that have sex acts in them! Coercion! Bodily autonomy! Raaaape!!!

WWs: Agree with you! You need to let her know how you feel and if she still won't treat you at least as good sexually as she did him, then it's time for D.

Betrayed husband here. 15 months post Dday for me and healing pretty good these days. Don’t post much (almost never) but read frequently. This topic definitely hits home for me as I still struggle sometimes with this. Although sexual intimacy is not “everything” in reconciliation, it is a major part for betrayeds in my experience. - men and women.

Graphic content below.........be forewarned......

Example 1, my wife performed oral sex with LO (limerant object - refuse to use term “AP”) and swallowed every time. In 2.5 years she is unable to count how many times just said “it was a lot”.. this does not happen in our relationship before or after her affair. She has stated in past, “I wouldn’t have done it if it wasn’t for the affair.”

Example 2: (hypothetical) your husband performed oral sex with his LO but will not do this with you the BW and you have told him this is an issue for you.

I think this is what the crux (at least for me) of this entire thread. Not that sexual intimacy is everything in reconciliation but it plays a significant role from a betrayed’s perspective (I cannot speak for wayward side). Can reconciliation truly happen in the above 2 scenarios without resentment, anger, hurt, or ......(fill in blank) negative emotion hindering the process? IMHO there will always be a divide. Now, can some betrayeds “get past” it or let it go....maybe....while others are not able to let go of this loss. I just pray that all waywards see that this is way they can FOR SURE help their BS heal as long as it does not involve harmful/dangerous sexual behavior.

Just my 2 cents