SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hi Joanna, I have not read through all the comments yet but felt I wanted to respond to your thread.

My WH didn't want to come on SI either for the same reasons. He did though at my insistence but he didn't follow through because his heart wasn't there and he didn't want to be called out for his bad behaviors. Felt SI was negative, just like your WH feels.

My WH didn't want to go to IC but he did it grudgingly. And he did end up liking it for awhile but eventually stopped going. We also went to MC together and this did seem to help.

My WH attended AA/Alanon with me at my insistence. Again he wasn't thrilled with it so that also fell by the way side.

We tried other things, church, CR, reading our own choices of literature but again today I feel it all was pretty much a waste of time. And you know why? Because my WH wasn't all in to fix himself for our marriage.

I can look back today and say that he in a sense was forced by me to attempt to change and in the end, it didn't work. His heart wasn't into wanting to change. He liked who he was at the price of hurting my soul. And he didn't want to do the hard work necessary for a better marriage.

I have to tell you the other part of my story because this is my story. My WH passed away a few months ago and we still had unfinished business of "trying" (really only on my part because he continued having wayward behaviors) to repair the damage he did to our marriage. But he wasn't going to stop hurting me because he felt he didn't need to stop. He felt I wouldn't leave and besides he enjoyed flirting with other women and getting feedback from them. Gave him an ego boost. It made him feel good about himself. He didn't bother to care though how it hurt me.

My point in telling you this is that from reading the little bit I've read so far, I feel your WH is like mine was, he isn't all in. If he were things would look a lot different.

I have learned so much about infidelity these past few months and I feel the best outcome comes when the BS stands up for themselves, gives ultimatums, sets new boundaries and the WH does the hard work to make themselves safe again for the marriage. I thought that I had started out strong but my resolved weakened as time went on and this especially is when my WH old antics started up again.

As others have stated, I think the best advice for you to take a step back and allow your WH to figure things out if he is even capable of doing it.

I hope you find your answers sooner than later.

[This message edited by Hurtmyheart at 1:02 AM, July 23rd (Thursday)]

HurtmyHeart,

Your story reminded me of someone. Not that your WH was like this person, but just the fact that your WH wasn't going to change because he didn't want to parallels this person:

A coworker's father had just passed away. I never met the man, but I would listen to my coworker tell me how he up and left his mother and three children when he was a child. He never moved far away, never really tried to make any amends, never paid any financial support to the wife or the children, and never really seemed to care. When he died, he had a small mobile home in need of repair, no material assets of any real value....and basically left the children(next of kin) to clean up the mess, along with the costs of removing the mobile home from its rental site.

No money put aside for his funeral expenses....someone else can take care of that. Each child was scratching what they could to have some sort of small service, and they found a small box of pictures at his home that they put out at the service. I went just to support my coworker, but when I am there looking at these pictures, not one of them was from his prior life. A few pictures of himself when he was young; some pictures of him fishing in his older years.

And only one thought came to my mind---as this man was taking his last breath in this world, the only two words going through his mind was "No Regrets". It's just the vibe that came with the atmosphere.

Didn't want to change---Wasn't going to change.

Some people simply do what they want.

I always struggle with the dark implications about all of this for humanity as a whole. We’re basically faced with about half the human race willing — even joyfully— to subject the other half to immeasurable pain and lacerating torture. Not a good look for a species that thinks so highly of itself.

And a lot of the 1/2 that hasn't done it to the other 1/2 is primarily because the right situation hasn't occurred yet, IMHO. I know I'd do it, which is why I guard vigilantly against being in that situation; it's the best I can do to prevent it. A lot of people lie to themselves (my W, exhibit A) and say "I'd never do that" or even better, "I couldn't do that". Well, a lot of those people are dead wrong and living in unreality.

IMHO, the model is just broken. Marriage worked in the past because of the strict controls and regulations around it. An A was a "fireable" offense and one that resulted in maximum prejudice from the judge against the betrayer. We've removed ANY punishment for an A, we've made them much more socially acceptable, we've built systems (Tinder, etc) to make it easier to have them. We say, as a society, that we don't want them, but our actions seem to prove, well, exactly the opposite. And, in some ways, it kind of makes sense, affairs a probably good for the economy (spreading money around rather than "hording it" in a marriage). They are good for birth rates, which, in turn, is good for economy. They are good for keeping people dependant on government (single mothers/fathers especially). There's a lot of "upside" from a very macro level if you just look past the immense human suffering that they cause.

The good news, if you can call it that, is that I really do think that the "fix" is coming for many affairs. In person sex with a partner is going to be, at some point in the future, a poor substitute to sex with computers/machines/etc. That will remove the sexual motivation and tension from a lot of people (in fact, this is already happening, but I think it will happen to a much bigger degree). Remove that motivation, and a whole lot of A's that have happened to date no longer have 2 willing participants. My W, for example, only had an A because the AP was looking for more sex. He wouldn't have been there without that motivation, and that motivation, I think, will be eclipsed by other things, probably in my lifetime, but certainly over the next 50-100 years.

There are some stunningly good outcomes if this comes to pass and also some stunningly bad outcomes. Affairs will be less of an issue, but the "graying of the world" will be a huge problem. There will be less interaction between people at all, because, without the sexual motivation, a lot of other interactions no longer have purpose. I think it will be hugely demotivating to some; think "herbivore men" or "monks"; without the drive for sex, the drive to do a lot of other things goes away too.

We have the system we have now because this is what we, as a society, want. We could put laws in place to hugely curb affairs if we wanted to (in fact, we'd just have to put the laws in place that used to be there), we obviously DO NOT want that to system. Some of this, I'm sure, is that the powerful people who are making the laws are, well, enjoying their position as "powerful people" to have A's of their own. But as a society, we've just decided that my personal happiness trumps your pain that might be caused by my actions. And that bleeds over into many areas of life beyond affairs. But it's blindingly obvious to see if you care to look for it; we just don't care as much about each other and a lot more for ourselves. IMHO, a lot of this is simply a result of "waaaaayyyy too many people" on this planet, who cares if you hurt one, there are millions more where they came from. But no matter the cause, the results are obvious and causing lots of people immense pain in tons of different areas of their lives.

jb3199, yes it does seem that way, he really didn't want to change certain aspects about himself. I guess that you could call my husband a cakeeater, enjoyed flirting with other women but also enjoyed the comforts of a home life.

One thing different about my story is that my husband took care me and my son and daughter financially. He loved being a good provider for his family. And in the end, again he took care of me very well financially. This was very important to him. Problem was though, he didn't want to change his wayward behaviors. He felt entitled to behave this way. Correction: He either blamed me for his behavior or denied doing it.

If a person truly wants to change, it's something they need to do on their own (with emotional support of course). I feel if that person has to be forced to change, then it ends up being a temporary situation.

[This message edited by Hurtmyheart at 10:14 AM, July 23rd (Thursday)]

It’s something I don’t know if I’ll ever understand. I don’t want it to be the straw that broke the camel’s back, but it might have been. He knew it would hurt me yet again, and he did it anyway.

Somehow, he still doesn’t get it.

I do believe there are, for the most part, two types of people. These two types go through life getting their needs met in fundamentally different ways that started very early on. I'll use two of my three kids as examples.

My daughter, a middle child between two boys, is very much like me. She has great manners, does all her homework (she's in college), and never lets her friends down. She is responsible and very conscientious and good to other people. She's a proton, in science terms.

My youngest son, competing with a know-it-all oldest brother and perfectionist sister, always had people saying, "I'll do it! You're not doing it right" as he was growing up. When he made mistakes, he was very hard on himself because the other two weren't making mistakes, as he saw it. He started lying to cover for himself. He was actively lying by 5 years-old, and I couldn't seem to stop it. He hated looking foolish. Pretty soon I began to overhear conversations with friends where he was constantly bragging and telling tall tales. I was powerless to stop this belief inside him that he wasn't good enough compared to the other two, no matter how much I talked to him or kept him trying.

I remember encouraging him in junior high basketball. It felt like my last chance to get him some authentic self-esteem. He practiced in our driveway every single day--shooting hoops, doing layups, dribbling, switching hands. Hours and hours over months. This was his big chance because his brother didn't play basketball. You guessed it: 75 kids tried out for two teams of 18, and he didn't make it. My heart still hurts for him. He was beyond devastated. The world made no sense to me. His superficial self-esteem became much worse that day--a false self that went around spouting success while his inner self felt like a complete loser. He became a right fighter, never able to be wrong in an argument. I mean NEVER. He developed more of an unpleasant air about him. He's a neutron, in science terms.

My daughter keeps hanging out with friends who act like my son--superficial types who are all me, me, me. My daughter starts listening to their favorite bands, watching their favorite shows, hanging with their other friends. I keep telling her, "Stand up for yourself" and she at first says, "No, it's fine! I like that stuff, too. It's my idea." That eventually turns into, "But that's not right! They shouldn't just ignore my feelings like this!" She's choosing to bring these selfish people into her life. They are selfish from the start. And then she does not understand why they dismiss her feelings. The real question is why did she dismiss her feelings initially? It's because protons attract to neutrons.

And then my youngest hangs with very responsible kids who allow him to brag and exaggerate. Occasionally his friends stop speaking to him over something he's done, and I talk with him and get him to apologize and try to see how he's hurt them with his selfishness. He follows my advice, but he doesn't quite get what he has done wrong. Because he is very, very empathetically challenged. He has spent his life wrapped up in a pain that I could not soothe, and it's made him pain averse. His inner self believes he has to keep that pain at bay, so he sort of keeps feeding his ego. It would compromise his ego to look at himself more realistically. He is a neutron attracting to protons who allow his selfishness.

Watching my kids adopt unhealthy thinking has been really, really painful. I keep their minds open with talk and knowledge and acceptance, but I can't change them. They have to want it. I always offer therapy and talk about my own, but the patterns are still there. My daughter has started with a therapist due to her hurt feelings with her best friend and a few others. It's helping her, I think. I'm hoping it will help her choose a healthy partner, but I'm not sure. Because protons and neutrons attract, unfortunately.

Your WH is like my son, and you are like my daughter. Your H is simply feeding his ego. This is the way he has built up his ego all of his life. He gathered the superficial ego kibbles--the audience at performances, the accolades, the wife that adores him, the side piece. You are my responsible daughter with extra empathy who loves to support people. But then you needed to be around people who wanted all that attention and support--neutrons.

Your WH met up with her because the chance to build his ego was irresistible. He does build his ego with your love, but it's not enough. He needs more of that superficial. The real thing to look at is why you, a proton, are so needy of a selfish neutron? Why choose such a selfish person in the first place? And why not let him go when he is hurtful? Because us responsible protons can't stop being responsible. We build our ego with perfectionism and goodness. You are as in love with trying to "do right" over taking care of your selfish need by leaving as he is in love with his "selfish side" over taking care of his need to do right. Yin yang. Protons and neutrons. Peanut butter and jelly. The sun and the moon.

You both need to let go of your natural tendencies: you need to stop trying to do right and be a little selfish by standing up for yourself. He needs to stop standing up for his selfish needs and start trying to do right. BOTH of you changing a little will steady your marital ship. Both of you. Both.

You need to feel good even if you get a divorce. He needs to feel good even if he gets no external validation. These are the marital changes that will fix both of you.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 10:08 AM, July 23rd (Thursday)]

Thanks for all of the replies. My sister just tested positive for covid so I am going to be taking a mental break from SI for a while. I can’t think about infidelity right now or what the right choice is for us. But I will read through them all later and do really appreciate your input and support. I’m so glad I found this place.

Sorry to hear about your sister Joanna, I hope everything goes well for her.

IMO, my marriage is much more fragile post infidelity. I’m much less willing to tolerate any bullshit from her. I also find myself considering other options at some of those big junctures in life. For instance, our nest is just now empty. Youngest graduated this spring and moved out of the house this summer. Normally that’s a good thing and you have more time with each other, the tempo of life changes somewhat, meals and other things are just more flexible without accommodating a bunch of schedules, etc. We now have a grand daughter and that is simply incredible. Plus, we can have living room sex again, a lot of good things.

But I find myself wondering if now isn’t the best time to divorce and finally put all of this behind me. I’m 50 and in great shape. I have most of my hair and I make a good living with a tidy nest egg for retirement. I’m in a much different place than I was when this first happened and a lot of the factors that kept me from divorcing years ago are no longer in play. I suppose I do feel like I’m settling for something “less than”. And, I guess I’m thinking this is likely how a lot of marriages end after infidelity. Years later with a whimper instead of immediately after d day with a Big Bang.