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worried about putting in all of the work only to D anyway

I think this is common. For me, I guess I ultimately realized that I will have to put in work no matter what. And that my 'work' was gonna be pretty much the same regardless of R or D.

I always use the WS driving a car with the BS as a passenger. The WS, by having an A, basically drives into a brick wall at 100mph. The BS is broken in every way - internal organs, broken bones, etc. They wake up in traction. No matter what happens with their WS, the BS must still figure out how to walk again. ONLY the BS can do the physical therapy exercises. ONLY the BS has to actually live through all that fucking pain in order to walk again. Yes, the WS can help (and they really must if R is on the table). I liken that help to bringing water or other comfort when the BS is struggling, making the dr appts, etc.

I love the adage "it's not your fault, but it is your responsibility". The injuries to the BS are not their fault. Never were. Never are. However, it is still the BS responsibility to heal. Not "for" their WS. Not "for" the M. The BS is responsible for healing themselves "for" themselves. Because every BS needs to learn to walk again in order to live a healthy & satisfying life.

Reframing that was helpful for me. Not only in working to move forward (tho I must admit Covid has stalled me big time), but also in finding ways to emotionally detach from my WH. In figuring out how to stop being his emotional sherpa in this shitshow.

He hasn't done much in the past to show me that he wants this, except for what I made him do.

We put our energies into things we value. For more than 2 years my WH showed me - from his ACTIONS (that pretty consistently were the opposite of his words) that he did not value fixing his shit. We can hear a bunch about how they "don't have the tools" or other such crap. These people are grown ups. I'm quite confident that if my WH got a cancer dx he'd be researching every fucking thing he could to figure out what he has and how to treat it - and so would I. To me, the stinkin thinkin that goes into being comfortable fucking another person is the emotional /psychological equivalent of cancer.

While I don't ever want to diminish the pain of any BS to whatever form(s) their WS' A(s) took, I do believe that, just like cancer, there are different stages (or varying degrees) of the "cancer" that lives within the WS and that the M must face after dday. And like cancer, there are a TON of variables that go into it. ONS, EA, emotionless sex, length of the A, 1st time or lifetime, LTA (and how long), how many APs, limerant or not, etc. The list goes on & on. Even a pretty bad or pretty good stage can be upgraded/downgraded (so to speak) by a host of factors - eg did the WS stop the A, did they confess, did they "get it" and "own it" relatively quickly, etc. Those stages - for the WS, the BS (cuz we now have cancer too) and the M will be different for each of us - depending on the A, the WS' ability to pull their head out their arse in a timely manner, the emotional baggage the BS brings to the table, and the state of the M before & after the A and dday.

However, like cancer, there are "go to" treatments that the WS must follow no matter what the 'stage' of the dx. IOW, EVERY WS must immediately end the A. Go NC. Answer ALL questions. Stop lying about anything & everything. Find and show remorse (which is very different from regret). Find and practice empathy. That list in How to Help Your Spouse is universal - whether an EA or ONS or LTA w/limerance. And if I recall, MacDonald says if she could sum it up into ONE word, it would be HUMILITY. If a WS cannot find a way to be humbled by the shitshow they have created, I don't think they will ever be capable of being a safe partner for anyone.

Ok. Sorry for the rant. It's over.

We've been together for 15 years and had a friendship even before that. That's almost half of my life and all of my adulthood

How old are you? It seems you are still young. I would argue that you have more of an attachment to your WH than any other emotion. Attachments are normal, but we can attach to people who are not good for us. Your objection to D is not a strength, although codependents (not saying you are) see it as one. A codependent type says, "I can take anything!" but they never say, "I don't accept just anything!" To really survive and thrive you have to detach from the outcome. Life is a journey, not a destination. It is important to be strong enough to push damaging things away, not just strong enough to tolerate any damaging things that come our way. You should not be so willing to tolerate as it short changes you. And it attracts those who take advantage--like your WS.

Do you have children?

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 10:57 AM, July 20th (Monday)]

hikingout,

But, you also have to remember that forums such as this one and subreddit draw a lot of people who are having a lot of problems at the time they are members.

I think that's a super important point.

But, here is the problem with your husband. Your husband does not have the luxury to be worried about what the results will be. He is the one who already ducked out. His only choice is to stand up and fight for what it is he wants or he will lose it. But, he has to also redefine what that means. Maybe he thinks "but I want this marriage". I mean, that's good, and that's okay. But what he REALLY has to say is "I want to be a better man. I want to look deeply at myself and make the improvements that will make that happen. And, in the midst of that, I will be a better husband, father, and over all person". True change is always selfish, and it's always precipitated by one's own personal pain.

Exactly! I think/hope that he's starting to see that.

I don't know if that helps, but I can tell you that R doesn't always have to mean a lackluster marriage for the rest of your life. It can actually begin a marriage that is better than you ever knew it could be. Your husband needs to shift his focus to what he can control, and that begins with the digging and the self awareness, the transparency of that.

It really does help, thank you. And, I totally agree.

EllieKMAS,

And I, reeling from all this, was doing some pretty spectacular mental gymnastics about how 'reading books about the affair causes him a lot of shame' (poor muffin), and 'all the work he needs to do to fix this is overwhelming' and and AND ad nauseum. But... let's logic this shall we? He had NO issues with downloading 18 EIGHTEEN books on ployamory and reading those.

Yeah...to my knowledge, he never actually read any books on polyamory, but I know he did lots and lots of research when OW told him that she was poly. That's a really good point.

Joanna, I understand what a mind-fuck it is. i really do. But please take some time to really think about YOU. Cus as far as I can see, you are still concerning yourself with him - what he's read, who he's talking to, what he's doing. I get it, and I LIVED IT. But that is still a version of the pick-me tango. It still feeds into his pathetic ego. Worry about YOU and your needs and wants, and then really take off those rosy glasses and look at what he is actually DOING. Which to now is pretty much nothing.

Thank you. I needed to hear this. I'm scared because I have zero idea of what focusing on myself and my needs and wants looks like. I don't even really know what those are. Pathetic, I know.

gmc94,

I really like the way you've reframed it and your car crash metaphor. And, I think that you're right that my own work of healing myself has to be the same no matter what we do. I think maybe I've been putting off doing that work because I've been trying to control the process and force him to heal himself. It's obviously not working.

We put our energies into things we value.

It's true.

He just told me he's reading that book today (the first one I didn't tell him to read, yay!).

If a WS cannot find a way to be humbled by the shitshow they have created, I don't think they will ever be capable of being a safe partner for anyone.

Hopefully he'll learn that lesson. I know I need to let go and try not worry about whether he does or not though. It's just hard.

OwningItNow,

I'm 33. He was my high school boyfriend, and we've been together since. And, you're right, I'm definitely attached to him and the life we've built together. I also agree that I have to learn to detach from the outcome. And, I'm also learning to set boundaries and be vocal about things that are damaging rather than just tolerating them. I'm trying. I don't know if I really know how, but I'm trying.

We do not have children and don't want them.

some of us always had that kind of support from our WS. I sure did/do.

My point is that kind of support does not necessarily equal safety or trust or fidelity. It sure as hell didn’t in my sitch. And if I had ever been given a choice, I would gladly give it all back - the ability to be a SAHM for a few years, the graduate degree I got later in life, the awesome (but low paying) job I’ve had for the last several years, etc. I’d give it all back to have had a husband that had been honest and kept his pants zipped. Because I’m not sure any of it was really about supporting ME, as much as it made him feel good about himself to be a KISA.

Just another perspective on “true love”

gmc, I think that love and fidelity are two entirely separate concepts. It's society that has tied them together. It's why I do believe that cheaters can love their spouses. I condemn their ACTIONS as unloving, but not their hearts.

I don't love my husband any less because I'm not monogamous. But then again, I'm not lying to him or breaking agreements :P We both have safety and trust in our marriage. And fidelity to our agreements.

[This message edited by PSTI at 11:43 AM, July 20th (Monday)]

I was in bed last night and the words I was looking for came to me but I was too tired to get up and type them and now it feels like some of it is missing, but I'll try.

I guess what I meant before when I replied to your comment about being with him because it was better than being alone? Flip it around; how would you feel if your WS said that being with you was better than being alone? I think both of you deserve better than that. A relationship should add value to your life, not give the minimum required effort to sustain it. I think it's so easy to fall into a rut of "good enough" and not realize that things could be so much better. Like I found out when my husband left me, sometimes we don't even see the box we're confining ourselves in until we get out of it.

It's funny- on different forums, I spend so much of my time trying to tell people that relationships are hard and that just because you can swipe a dozen new people on Tinder doesn't mean you should give on someone just because of one little thing. But this is different- people here aren't holding onto perfection. It seems that so many are just looking for their "good enough" when they could have so much more- whereas the starry eyed people I see literally want their dream soulmate. I don't think either extreme is a good choice.

Don't fall into the sunk cost fallacy. If you decide that spending time on your own is better for you than being with WS, the amount of time you spent with him shouldn't factor into it at all. That time is gone. You can't change that. But it doesn't mean you should pour more of your life into it unless you truly believe that it is the best decision for you.

I don't regret the time I spent with my xH. We were together for 14 years and we produced a beautiful son. In 14 years we had a lot of wonderful moments. But I would never give him another day of my life just because things were once good. That person doesn't exist anymore.

I don't know- you say he puts you first and makes you feel like he would give you anything, too? Then how does that thought coexist with the idea that he hasn't been putting you first, that you have been left home while he is out all night with his music? I don't mean to be pointed, but those thoughts don't seem to go together to me factually. Is it possible you're letting your emotions of good times cloud things?

It is not pathetic not to know what your needs and wants are. I think that we all go through that. We try things out over the years and see what works. But it is usually only when something goes really wrong that we get the perspective to see that something does not work for us, or that we really do need something. Otherwise? It's like being the frog in boiling water. Things don't go wrong all at once. If our WS behaved like they do in a LTR right at the beginning, no one would ever marry them, right? But it slowly gets worse and we tolerate it because there's always issues in LTRs right? Until one day it's too much.

Learning to set boundaries and call WS to account is just as important as figuring out the positive things- what you do want and need. And it's okay to decide that something needs to stop even if you've tolerated it before.

I'm scared because I have zero idea of what focusing on myself and my needs and wants looks like. I don't even really know what those are. Pathetic, I know.

(((Joanna)))

It's totally normal and okay to be scared. The thought of a big change is always scary. And like I said in my earlier post, I think it's pretty normal - especially for women - to have set their own needs and wants aside for their partner. I think it's because women tend to be nurturers and part of how they show love is taking care of their partner. In theory, that's beautiful and there's nothing wrong with it. The issues come in when that partner isn't taking care of you in return.

It took me time too! I floundered for months before I finally put my foot down and said no to all his stupid bullshit. It is a process. And for me it felt very foreign because it almost felt... selfish? in a way. But taking care of yourself and clearly laying out what you need and want from the relationship is not selfish. It's healthy. Take time for yourself to really envision what you want your life to be. Who is your ideal partner in a perfect world? What is your ideal situation in a perfect world? Then really look at what you have right here right now. How does it differ from that vision? I know we don't live in a perfect world, but going to that place in your head can often jump start retraining your brain to look at things differently.

And girl you are in no way pathetic. AT ALL. You're hurt and your whole world has been turned inside-out and you are doing the best you can to keep going. That's not pathetic - it's badass.

[This message edited by EllieKMAS at 11:49 AM, July 20th (Monday)]

I guess what I meant before when I replied to your comment about being with him because it was better than being alone? Flip it around; how would you feel if your WS said that being with you was better than being alone?

That's not how I feel though. I'd be lying if not wanting to be alone wasn't a small part of the reason, but it's not the whole reason or the main reason. I love my husband. I don't want to be with just anyone or to have just any shoulder to cry on. I want him.

I don't know- you say he puts you first and makes you feel like he would give you anything, too? Then how does that thought coexist with the idea that he hasn't been putting you first, that you have been left home while he is out all night with his music? I don't mean to be pointed, but those thoughts don't seem to go together to me factually. Is it possible you're letting your emotions of good times cloud things?

I understand what you're saying. I think that, prior to his affair, I never really saw it as him putting music or anything else ahead of me. I only really started seeing it that way after, so at the time, I did feel like he put me first and made me feel like he'd giving anything for me.

Learning to set boundaries and call WS to account is just as important as figuring out the positive things- what you do want and need. And it's okay to decide that something needs to stop even if you've tolerated it before.

I totally agree. I don't think that means D for me though.

And girl you are in no way pathetic. AT ALL. You're hurt and your whole world has been turned inside-out and you are doing the best you can to keep going. That's not pathetic - it's badass.

Thank you <3. I needed to hear that.

Joanna, I'm not saying this out of a pro-D stance. I see you saying that divorce is not for you, and I get it, no one gets married fantasizing about how great the divorce will be. None of us who divorced wanted that outcome when we got married. I was deliriously happy with my XWH when we got married. Could not believe I'd gotten so lucky as to meet and fall in love with this amazing man. I knew we'd be together for the rest of our lives. Absolutely knew it. There was no way that wouldn't be the outcome. He was my best friend, my person, etc. and so on. When you read those of us who chose the divorce route, it's not that we're joyfully cheerleading for anyone else to divorce. It's not a fun party or a cool club to join. It can be the absolute best outcome for the BS after infidelity. It can be what leads to a much better less stressful and painful life. I think R is a lot harder than D. None of it is a cakewalk. You have two hard choices before you. It's a case of choosing which hard thing is best for you.

If you as the BS want the marriage more and fight harder to keep it together than your WH does, you are pretty much guaranteed to have a more painful and traumatic life than you would have if you just divorced. This really isn't something that you can fix. You can't make him become a better person who wouldn't be able to cheat on you again. You can't make him value you or the marriage as much as you want him to.

You aren't powerless. No BS is powerless. Your power doesn't reside in saving your marriage. It isn't dependent upon what your WS does or doesn't do. Your power is in you deciding what you will tolerate and being your own best friend.

And listen, if it does come down to divorce, that is an acceptable outcome and you have not ruined your life by getting divorced. It still amazes me how resilient we humans are. These strong attachments really can become "somebody I used to know". Love fades and dies. We move on and one day cannot understand why on earth we were so devoted to a person who hurt us so deeply. Time works miracles on the heart and mind. It seems so impossible, and yet it happens all the time to all kinds of people. One year you would die for this person, a year later you don't know why you ever even dated them.

It isn't that I want you excited about divorce as an option. You're just more likely to find a path out of infidelity if you can accept divorce as an option. If your WS knows you will do everything but leave, well...that is where you do become powerless.

And listen, if it does come down to divorce, that is an acceptable outcome and you have not ruined your life by getting divorced. It still amazes me how resilient we humans are. These strong attachments really can become "somebody I used to know". Love fades and dies. We move on and one day cannot understand why on earth we were so devoted to a person who hurt us so deeply. Time works miracles on the heart and mind. It seems so impossible, and yet it happens all the time to all kinds of people. One year you would die for this person, a year later you don't know why you ever even dated them.

PREACH. Or it becomes "Thank the LAWD and the universe and all things holy that I am FREEEEEEE of the shitshow!" Having the knowledge that I learned the hard way and knowing that he has not changed one bit (and likely won't ever - he will just play his wittle poor baby card and find another poor sap to buy the bullshit he peddles as 'love') and my life would be so much harder if I was still mired in the shit he caused. Can't tell you how often these days I have been so unbelievably grateful that I am just me now...

I don’t think I’m afraid of divorce per say. I mean, you’re right, that’s not what I want nor what I ever wanted. I do see it as the last resort though. I want to fight for us, and I’m not ready to give up yet.

After my sister was diagnosed with sarcoma a few months ago, I stayed with my family out of state for over a month, and it taught me that I really don’t need him and I can be ok on my own.

I no longer see divorce as the worst case scenario. It’s still not what I want though. But everyone is correct when they say that we both need to let go of the outcome and just focus on healing ourselves, and that includes me letting go of his process and not continuing to worry about whether he does the work or not.

If he doesn’t, I won’t keep doing this to myself. I’m not sure where the line is at or how long I’ll give him yet, but I no longer want to have to be the one holding us together. It’s his turn to figure it out.

If a WS cannot find a way to be humbled by the shitshow they have created, I don't think they will ever be capable of being a safe partner for anyone

This is very important.

My ex left our marriage and before our divorce was even final was already creating the same dynamic between himself and his girlfriend that we had. That's when it really hit home that it was never me, it was always him. His gf and I are very different but he is the common denominator and they have exactly the same drama. He never fixed his shit.

I want to fight for us

As long as you feel this way, your WH is unlikely to fight for the M. Because it's not in jeopardy, is it?

Eta: This is not just directed at you specifically, Joanna, more just a general statement about a situation that so many here are in, but one of my biggest pet peeves here is when a BS says the marriage is worth saving because they love their WS--the spouse that has crushed them, driven them into the depths of pain and obsession, left them sleepless and ill. The inequity in the R always gives me this image in my head of a person underneath the water with their WS standing on their shoulders. The wayward's head is above the water, and they are smiling and breathing fresh air. Down below, the BS is struggling under the weight and running out of oxygen.

Why so much love and value toward someone who is standing on your shoulders, enjoying life, while you literally drown? It makes me sad. It's not right. Love yourself right now, not him. He should have to earn your love back.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 2:16 PM, July 20th (Monday)]

This is a great community. What makes it great is that everyone here in the throws of infidelity have a huge community trying to help them. It really is special.

What it isn't, is a good statistical indicator of infidelity over all. Think about why people come here? They really are lost and looking for answers and advice. So you have people coming here to fix something, or as the name says survive infidelity.

Contrast that with the population as a whole. Its unfortunate, but my guess is more betrayed women stay than men due to socio economics, but still many just get fed up and walk. They don't search out answers. For men, again my guess is many men do the same, possibly after inflicting physical violence on their WW. I think the conventional wisdom is pretty much split here between divorce and R. If I had told my story to my guy friends the advice would have been 100% to kick her out and leave her with nothing.

If SI were a poll, it wouldn't be valid as it is statically stacked towards R. Even if it doesn't sometimes feel like it.

Redditt is a little different. Some of the subs are similar to SI, but much of it is the wild west. That is because the good work of the Mods here keep things more in line.

2. (Slightly less rare) WS has affair. BS discovers. The A stops immediately. WS is immediately remorseful. WS and BS do *everything* right in the aftermath of DDay. They do the hard work. In the end, it's still not enough, the A was too much, and they proceed with D (usually initiated by BS).

This is clearly my category. The ending was written on D Day. It just took me a while to get there.

I do think that his focus is way off. He should be 100% looking at what a successful reconciliation would be, and should be doing everything to get there. No doubts, just total focus. Sorry for the golf reference, but the best golfers look at the lake, figure out how to far they need to hit it to get over, then focus on that shot. Most amateurs focus on the lake and that is where the ball goes. He feels like the amateur golfer.

You can't lead him into R, he needs to fight for it.

I think that love and fidelity are two entirely separate concepts

Ah. And I respectfully disagree.

OwningItNow,

Why so much love and value toward someone who is standing on your shoulders, enjoying life, while you literally drown? It makes me sad. It's not right. Love yourself right now, not him. He should have to earn your love back.

Because love for me just doesn't disappear. He has to earn my trust back and my firm commitment to the marriage, but the love wouldn't go away even if we divorced.

I get what you mean though, and I am going to be strong and refrain from holding up our relationship on my own. From now on, he has to put in the work. I will no longer do it for him.

waitedwaytoolong,

What it isn't, is a good statistical indicator of infidelity over all. Think about why people come here? They really are lost and looking for answers and advice. So you have people coming here to fix something, or as the name says survive infidelity.

I think you're totally right. I'm trying not to be as concerned about how many other couples stay together or reach true R as I was. I'm just trying to focus on my own healing.

I like your golf reference, and I think it fits really well.

You can't lead him into R, he needs to fight for it.

Agreed. And I'm finally starting to see this.

Agreed. And I'm finally starting to see this.

This is good news, Joanna. None of us understood how to straighten out our lives immediately. I may come across like I think I have all the answers because I get right to the point after hundreds of hours of giving the same advice to suffering members, but that advice comes from my own tears and trial and error. That you feel yourself gaining clarity and getting stronger is excellent news. Change is difficult and does not happen overnight, so don't be too hard on yourself. Every single one of us had to learn how to save ourselves.

OwningItNow,

Thank you for saying that. I'm so ashamed at what an idiot I've been and how desperate I was to keep someone who really didn't seem to want me back.

I don't feel stronger but I'm coming to terms with the fact that he has to do the work and demonstrate to me that he wants this.

Many of us wore the idiot hat. I wore it for years. But I don't feel ashamed about it anymore because I did grow to appreciate and value myself, and I like who I have become. It was a long journey, and people took advantage of my weakness and excessive kindness, but that's ok. I learned. And I ended up feeling great.

Be kind to yourself but kind in the good way--the way that believes it's ok to tell people No and ask more of them because you matter. If you mess up and get weak, that's ok but it might end up getting you burned again. But then your determination will get stronger. Your strength inside grows bigger.

Make sure to read websites and books and journal and grow yourself strong inside, like a beautiful, tall sunflower. It's not about hating anyone or pushing your WH away; it's about believing in yourself and your right to be with someone who treats you with the respect that your awesome self deserves.

Read:

Codependent No More

Women Who Love Too Much

Journey from Abandonment to Healing

How to Make Friends and Influence People

And everything by Brene Brown!

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 10:46 AM, July 21st (Tuesday)]

You aren't an idiot, Joanna. Not at all. It's just so very hard to comprehend the kind of mindset that someone has to have to proclaim that they love you and then go behind your back and screw you over. To not have actions follow such genuine-sounding words. It's a kind of gaslighting and for those of us who don't do that, it is SO HARD to accept that others do think this way. I was blown away by how a man can cry and weep and beg me to stay and then not follow through. It screws with your mind. It took me a while to truly accept that my XWH really does see himself as the victim after all that he did to wreck me and the marriage. It is insane. A sane and decent person is going to have a hard time navigating this situation.