SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

My husband told me he’s been reading the surviving infidelity subreddit, and that most of the stories he’s read make him think there’s no hope. He says from what he’s read on that sub, most couples who initially survive infidelity end up getting divorced a couple of years later.

Is he trying to give himself an easy out? He says he’s not. Is it futile? Am I putting myself through this only to end up divorced in two years?

I'd be remiss if I didn't first point out that, from what I've seen here over the years, part of the R process for the WS involves "letting go of the outcome." Just something for your husband to think about. The part he plays in this isn't really about whether R or D happens; it's more about healing and change and growth. That really needs to be at the forefront. Have you and your husband talked about him posting on the Wayward forum?

It would be great to see some real stats about R and D here, but even those data would be highly skewed for numerous reasons.

Still, yep, after infidelity, lots of people get divorced. Understandably.

What I'd be more interested in, especially if I were musing on the subject as your husband seems to be, are the *reasons* people seem to end up divorced after infidelity.

As I sit here and type this, I'm realizing that data would be unreliable as well. Sitting here today close to four years out from DDay, my perspective on why I am divorced is different than it was when I was going through the process.

Anyway, here are some common patterns that seem to lead to divorce that I've seen on SI over the years:

1. (Rare) WS has affair. BS discovers. BS lays the hammer down and proceeds with D immediately.

2. (Slightly less rare) WS has affair. BS discovers. The A stops immediately. WS is immediately remorseful. WS and BS do *everything* right in the aftermath of DDay. They do the hard work. In the end, it's still not enough, the A was too much, and they proceed with D (usually initiated by BS).

3. (Slightly less rare) WS has affair. BS discovers. WS tells the BS they're done and proceeds with D so they can go be with AP.

4. (More common) WS has affair. BS discovers. The usual shit ensues. Trickle truth, lying, multiple DDays, whatever. BS doing all the wrong things (pick-me dance, etc.), BS in agony, WS doing all the wrong things, manipulating the situation/truth, still contacting AP, hiding things, etc. Eventually, after a period of time and all kinds of horrible things, the A somehow stops and miraculously the BS, though nearly ruined, is still there. WS and BS make a conscious effort to try for R. Put the work in. They really do the work, WS does what they need to do, BS does what they need to do. But in the end, too much damage is done. Months, sometimes years of damage all *on top of* the A. The BS just can't deal, eventually they D (usually initiated by BS).

5. (More common) WS has affair. BS discovers. The usual shit ensues, but the A never really stops. BS is lost in an incomprehensible shit universe they don't understand. The A goes underground, etc. WS lies through everything. Even if there is an "R" attempt, it's false R. WS lies in MC. WS still secretly sees AP, lies to BS. This can go on for a long time. Eventually, BS has a final DDay where they realize their WS is still having an A and just won't stop for whatever reason(s). The BS proceeds with D.

And here are two common patterns that lead to people staying married that I've seen here over the years:

1. (Less common) WS has A. BS discovers. Regardless of what happens next, WS and BS eventually find themselves in a place where they are *truly* working at R. They both want it. They both put the work in. They do this for a period of years. A new relationship is built. The A is still a part of their story and something that still needs work and attention forever, but they eventually find themselves in a healthy place and truly reconciled. The work never stops. This is true R.

2. (More common) WS has A. BS discovers. Regardless of what happens next, WS and BS stay together. The required work doesn't really get done. WS doesn't do their part and/or BS doesn't do their part. There are major issues, could be any number of things, from full-blown A behaviors to more mundane ongoing lying or simple lack of effort. There is no real R, but they remain "married." No one is really happy. This can go on indefinitely.

~

These are all just my little opinions. Would certainly be interested to read other perspectives.

I'd be interested to see which of the scenarios you think you and your husband fit into above?

As you can see, from my perspective, there are two common scenarios where people can avoid divorce. One of those scenarios is a true reconciliation. If you and your husband can fit into one of those, you can probably stay married.

R is never a guarantee. And maybe your husband is even kinda right. But there are definitely truly reconciled people here. Check out their stories. Again, part of getting there for the WS, from what I've seen, is letting go of the outcome and instead putting the work in.

Anyway, I wouldn't say there's "no" hope. While not a guarantee, R does happen. It really is possible.

[This message edited by Okokok at 9:13 AM, July 18th (Saturday)]

Thank you so much for this thoughtful reply. It’s good to hear that there’s hope, especially from someone who has chosen divorce. It feels like some people who choose that are very anti-reconciliation.

I think, right now, we are #4 under the divorce scenarios you’ve laid out. After 3 d-days, months of him “not remembering” the answers to any of my questions, and broken NC (8 months into supposed reconciliation I might add) and subsequent lies to cover it up, I sort of feel like too much damage has been done to really ever recover the trust.

We both want to reconcile though, badly, and are both ready to do whatever it takes. Or so he says.

I have encouraged him to post here. He seems to think this forum is full of people telling me what a POS he is and that I should just leave. I tried explaining that there’s a whole forum just for reconciliation. Didn’t change his mind though.

[This message edited by Joanna1013 at 11:08 PM, July 18th (Saturday)]

You have to look at each situation separately. If a person starts cheating during first years of marriage i figure that’s their hobby and they aren’t going to give it up. If they fall in love with a coworker and that doesn’t work out then, maybe. If they are trolling online, nope. If they tell you because they did some stupid things, recognize what they are about to lose then, maybe. Life with a cheater is a crap shoot.

The very best advice I can give to any man or woman is to have their own source of income. Don’t be dependent on the other spouse/SO financially. It’s too iffy.

It’s good to hear that there’s hope, especially from someone who has chosen divorce. It feels like some people who choose that are very anti-reconciliation.

Like a lot of people here, I am pro-getting-out-of-infidelity.

I am quite anti-awful-marriage.

But in my universe, I have to believe in R, true R, as an option. I have to. And I do. I've seen it. And while what I really care about here on SI above all else is BS healing and getting out of traumatic situations, almost nothing makes me feel better about humanity in general than seeing a truly remorseful, hardworking former wayward spouse doing the work and contributing to the discourse here. I have immense respect for those people.

I think, right now, we are #4 under the divorce scenarios you’ve laid out.

I lived #5. Four DDays total. I *really* wanted R back in the day. My head is in a different place today.

You'll notice that #4 in the divorce scenarios has pretty clear connection to #1 in the married scenarios. So that's "good" for you, maybe.

I have encouraged him to post here. He seems to think this forum is full of people telling me what a POS he is and that I should just leave.

Hey, everyone, even the BS, needs a 2x4 from time to time. Your husband would be no exception. He needs to be strong enough to hear and consider *everything* if he's going to be a good candidate for R. Don't you think?

The bottom line is that if you both want it and you both do what is required, it's very possible.

If he's reading here anyway, I don't see why he can't post his story on the Wayward Side, put up a stop sign, and start interacting with some of the smart people over there. If he wants to work on himself, help you, and try to save this thing, why wouldn't he?

[This message edited by Okokok at 9:30 AM, July 18th (Saturday)]

We both want to reconcile though, badly, and are both ready to do whatever it takes. Or so he says

Are you sure he wants to reconcile, or does he just want to stay married? From what I've seen, there are definitely people who reconcile but most people on here who don't divorce - they are staying married but the trust is gone, etc.

Of course, this could be skewed because perhaps the people who truly reconcile just stop posting.

Having said that I read a study from 2 years ago that found that 5 years post cheating about 50% of couples had divorced. So you and your husband can choose to be part of either half.

But also. Have an honest conversation with yourself. Why do you want to stay married? What do you expect of your husband? And can he meet those expectations? If you know what you want, it is far easier to get it. And it is far easier to know you don't have it and/or won't ever have it.

And your husband should have an honest conversation with himself. Why does he want to stay married? Why did he give his wife 3 d days? What is he willing to do to stay married? What made him decide to cheat? What made him stop, and what stops him from doing it again?

Full disclosure I am not a fan of R.

1. The work a ws has to put in for true R requires a LOT of self-reflection and a willingness to be brutally honest about their actions and emotional state. IMHO if they possessed that, they wouldn't be a ws in the first place.

2. There is no way to ever even the scale for the BS. Not that I'm saying things should always be tit for tat, but always the BS has to choke down the knowledge of the vows they kept and their ws didn't.

3. I have a theory that for a lot of BS's, 'R' stands for reality, not reconciliation. Because ddays are so jarring, so disorienting, that you just want your known reality back. That was def true for me. I said I wanted R, but I really didn't. Took 9 months and another dday to snap me into the new reality and make it clear to me that what I truly wanted and needed was out of infidelity - even if that meant divorcing.

I know true R does happen. I think there are definitely examples of it here. But I believe true R is exceedingly rare, and that can sadly be seen by the number of 'I'm back after x years' posts that pop up in JFO pretty regularly. I think a lot more R is just either party white-knuckling to stay married no matter what.

I think a lot of BS's, because of kids, and bills, and work, and life have spent a long time not really thinking about their needs and wants. I know that was true for me for sure. And when dday happened, for me a big part of my struggle was realizing how long it had been that I had just put up with the lack of affection and respect. Call that piece my accountability - but even that felt grossly insulting on top of his cheating.

I just think it is SO important that as a BS you really take some time and get 'selfish'. What do YOU need and want, not the family or marriage or kids, but YOU. And then get really honest... Can your ws meet those needs? Have they ever in the past? Those questions take time to answer and sometimes in the wake of subsequent ddays, TT, etc those answers change.

R is an uphill slog for both parties. But R with a ws who's only going through the motions is a doomed endeavor from the start and will only do more damage to the BS.

Joanna,

What is your H doing to figure out how to change from cheater to good partner? From what you say, he's looking at externals. To R, he needs to change his internals so he doesn't need external validation.

If he makes the necessary internal changes, R is a likely outcome. If he doesn't, you may not be able to build a good partnership.

I like Okokok's breakdown.

The one thing I'd add explicitly is that a lot of Ms breakdown after infidelity, but not because of infidelity. Rather, it's because the infidelity gets one partner to realize that the M has big problems in addition to infidelity, and that partner chooses to D because of the totality of problems, not just the A(s).

Gottman and his school claim a pretty high confidence in their ability to keep Ms together, if the partners will take on M-maintaining behaviors.

Also, Peggy Vaughan's surveys show that 76% of her samples stay married. That doesn't say anything about R, but this might be indicative:

35% of those who discussed the situation very little felt somewhat or mostly healed

51% of those who discussed the situation a good bit felt somewhat or mostly healed

54% of those who discussed the situation a lot felt somewhat or mostly healed

and

21% of relationships where they discussed the situation very little were better than before the affair(s)

43% of relationships where they discussed the situation a good bit were better than before the affair(s)

59% of relationships where they discussed the situation a lot were better than before the affair(s)

(The above numbers are quoted from Help for Therapists (and their Clients) available as a free download from Peggy Vaughan's website.)

I started on reddit at first and while i undererstand the pain and rsge there is a lpt of observers on al 3 of those infidelity subs whos burn it all attitude kind of taint the air. Your husband really should read this site as its alot more empathetic and helpful. He needs to he present in the gift you are giving him more than worried about the future.

I dont think theres any set criteria to either path. Theres nothing saying you have to divorce if xyz happens and nothing saying you have to stay. I have lurked for a few months devouring stories ans have seen some truly heinous stories that an amazingly strong BS has powered through while their WS dug themselves out of the pit they were in and built them a foundation. It really is how you feel about it that matters, not statistics and what others do. I divorced, within a month of dday, but not because the infidelity per say. I divorced because i had already been carrying the marriage about 80% when she cheated on me and i dont think i was strong enough to continue doing thst with a gunshot wound. Also post dday she was reacting the same way she did after any of our disagreements. Shutting down, crying but not wanting to talk, turning it around on me somehow and trying to make me the bad guy for wanting to discuss it. Her infidelity was ripe with disrespect, a stay at home wife (no kid) sleeping with her childhood friend i had let move in with us so he could get on his feet, in my house while i was at work. But i divorced so quickly because i couldnt deal with the usual way she handled conflict on something so devastating.

I think staying and working on R shows a tremendous amoint of strength in yiurself and faith in yiur partner, as long as youre staying because of belief in R and not comfort i think it could be worth it. Just be sure to take care of yourself

Really interesting discussion I needed to read today. I am somewhere on the continuum of combining #4 on the D list and #2 on the staying together list. It ain’t fun.

There aren’t really any good stats on R vs D after infidelity bc most couples consider the whole process shameful and want to move on. BS’s don’t want to talk about it and WS’s are happy to allow other factors to take the blame for a. D. Infidelity gurus like Esther Perel have willfully enabled or even encouraged this confusion.

But Occam’s razor applied, with a 50 percent divorce rate in the United States, and given that nearly half of all couples will experience infidelity, one has to assume that the majority of the time there’s a high likelihood of divorce after infidelity. That doesn’t mean a BS should not try to reconcile. it just means the bar must be set pretty high for a WS to achieve true reconciliation. If they aren’t meeting that bar, then there’s very little point in continuing a half baked R.

This helps me really think about my own situation.

I am not surprised by the stat of so many marriages ending about 5 years after infidelity. Makes a lot of sense. I’m approaching the 4 year mark of DDAY myself in December. I think what happens is that everything calms way down and the BS really has time to process and think. And given that most WS’s aren’t really capable of truly putting in the work needed for a true R, after ruminating and considering their options and really coming to grips with their situation, I conclude most BS’s decide to D after this time.

35% of those who discussed the situation very little felt somewhat or mostly healed

51% of those who discussed the situation a good bit felt somewhat or mostly healed

I am usually a glass is half full guy but If you really examine those stats you can conclude that 86 percent considered themselves only partially healed or not at all, otherwise they would have responded with “fully healed” response instead of placing themselves in the ambivalent middle. The 51 percent includes a good chunk who consider themselves only “somewhat” healed putting them closer to the 35 percent. If we saw the cross tabs on that survey, I’d be willing to bet that most of the 51 percent only considered themselves “somewhat” rather than “mostly.”

So after trying to R, a resounding supermajority of betrayed spouses get only partial healing.

Doesn’t seem like a great deal. Now we don’t know how divorced betrayeds would respond to a similar survey, but we can surmise based on anecdotal evidence here on SI and elsewhere that divorced betrayeds heal much more quickly in most cases because they are not shackled to the source of their pain.

EDIT: after reading more closely, just realized that the percentages above were contingent on how much the “situation” was discussed. That’s a bit mushy all around - after all how does one measure “very little” vs “a good bit”? Do they keep a time log? But in any case it’s pretty clear that at least a supermajority of betrayeds only feel partially healed.

I know someone is going to challenge my 50 percent on infidelity. It’s becoming more clear all the time that women are achieving parity with men in infidelity — and it was probably always this way. Anthropologists have observed for years that infidelity in non-western cultures is 50 percent. It’s only lower in western society bc people won’t admit even in anonymous surveys. women are lower bc of the stigma attached to being a “slut” — not bc their numbers are actually lower. Interestingly there have been surveys where women only admit to a low percentage of actual infidelity but also say with a high percentage supermajority that they would cheat if they thought they could get away with it. Again occam’s razor would suggest that these same women are under reporting infidelity. Unfaithful men always got the “stud” treatment so have been more likely to admit on anonymous surveys — although thankfully that is changing and there is less and less acceptance of male infidelity and more stigma (while oddly pop culture is increasingly celebrating female infidelity and female open marriage one way polyamory).

I think we can say with a high degree of certainty that if you know two married couples at least one of the four people is a cheater. If you doubt this then just consider your own social Circle or the wider community you live in. With a few exceptions, of course, Infidelity is rampant, therefore divorce is increasingly common

[This message edited by Thumos at 12:12 PM, July 18th (Saturday)]

I know someone is going to challenge my 50 percent on infidelity.

When I went to my first attorney prior to filing, the first words out of his mouth were "So which one of you has the new friend?"

It was his funny way of asking whether it was me or my wife who was having the affair. Told me it's generally always the case in his experience.

That's just one lawyer in one place, but it stuck with me.

I am not surprised by the stat of so many marriages ending about 5 years after infidelity. Makes a lot of sense. I’m approaching the 4 year mark of DDAY myself in December. I think what happens is that everything calms way down and the BS really has time to process and think. And given that most WS’s aren’t really capable of truly putting in the work needed for a true R, after ruminating and considering their options and really coming to grips with their situation, I conclude most BS’s decide to D after this time.

This is my scenario. It was 5 years after False R that I decided to call it quits. My STBX is still acting like a victim even now.

Okokok's breakdown is awesome! I have seen all of those scenarios on this site. My situation falls under #5.

So which one of you has the new friend?"

I always struggle with the dark implications about all of this for humanity as a whole. We’re basically faced with about half the human race willing — even joyfully— to subject the other half to immeasurable pain and lacerating torture. Not a good look for a species that thinks so highly of itself.

My divorce was final about 8 years after my first D-Day. There were numerous others after that.

If you looked back a few years ago, I was Pollyanna of the R forum for a while. I wanted it so badly. My husband was just unwilling or unable to do the work.

So I don't know about the stats. Or much about real R, because I never had it. But I know that I was adamantly opposed to divorce and now, as a divorced lady, I'm so much happier.

So please. Even if R is your goal, know that if you do end up divorced, you'll be ok.

Okokok's list is the best I've ever seen. It is spot on.

Being a stats nerd myself, I can tell you that infidelity stats in regard to R or D are not great. Typically they measure whether a BS stays or not immediately after DDay and truthfully, BSes rarely D right after DDay. Even BSes who say they want D right after DDay do not typically go through with it until some time later after they've tried R. Then you have the therapists stats. How many couples even make it to MC in the first place? Some people R without even going to MC. And how many couples graduate MC but get a D later? Too many for comfort and I doubt the MCs are calling people up 1 year, 2 years, 5 years later to see if their previous clients are still together. The most common stat I see - 80% R - and it's a little ridiculous because if that's true, why aren't most of us in R right now? R forum should be booming.

SI is one of the best websites I've seen for information, healing tips, group support, and gives a fair rundown of what R needs to look like in order for it to be successful. It is also one of the most active websites. It has the easiest to find confirmed examples of successful R pinned to the top of the R forum so that you can't miss it. Better yet, people who have R'd stick around to give advice and if you notice - there's not a whole lot of variation into what they say a successful R takes. It's a standard recipe. It's long and difficult so not everyone gets through it or has a WS with the correct ingredient to even try but it's readily available and easily found all over SI where as most other marriage websites do not readily have that road map handy for you. The crowed is more pro-R too which is why I laugh a little when someone complains about it because places like Reddit and other common marriage sites are almost entirely a cacophony of "Divorce them!" with very little given in the way of information about how a BS could potentially R even if their chances look bleak. If he's on Reddit, of course he thinks no one Rs because almost no one is given advice about how to R who wants to R on Reddit.

Joanna, truthfully, almost no WS ever wanted a D otherwise they would have gotten a D before cheating, during cheating, or on DDay. But as you've seen, a lot of WSes also don't want to do what is necessary for R and put the responsibility on the BS to initiate a D. In fact, some WSes sort of do want D but don't want to look like the monster who cheated on their BS, dragged them through hell, and then D'd them too. Not wanting D and saying you will do whatever to not D isn't on the list of R requirements because just about every WS says that because they know if they say, "I don't want to R," their BS will give them the D that they don't want so they don't have a choice but to say the right words regardless of if they genuinely mean them, want to rugsweep, or are currently cheating/planning to cheat again soon. Your WH is no exception.

If you want to know which category your WH falls in to - look at his actions. Ignore his words entirely because they don't mean much. His actions as you've stated are:

- Keeps giving you DDays (anti-R)

- Keeps breaking NC (anti-R)

- Refuses to give you the truth of A(s) by claiming he doesn't remember (anti-R)

- Keeps lying (anti-R)

- Read NJF (pro-R)

- Went to MC (pro-R) but dropped out (anti-R)

- No IC (anti-R)

- Talks about A (pro-R)

- Refuses to post on SI (anti-R)

- Reads online about infidelity (pro-R)

A little bit of a mixed bag, right? So let's break it down into what's absolutely necessary for R and what's a bonus for R:

Required:

- NC with OW forever

- No more lies

- Truth about the A

- Talks about A without defensiveness/shutting down

- IC (not everyone agrees with this one but I believe if WSes had healthy views about themselves, others, and coping mechanisms, they wouldn't cheat in the first place so they're not equipped to navigate R without professional intervention)

- Whatever the BS says is absolutely necessary

Bonus:

- Reading books/articles

- Posting on marriage/infidelity forum or joining a support group

- Journaling, meditation, or other self reflection exercises

- Listening to podcasts/TED talks aimed at infidelity

- Written timeline

- Passed polygraph

- Data recovery on phone/tablet

So how many of the above is your WH doing? And if he can't give you the most basic things required of R, how can you make it through? Will you even want to be with him if in 2 years, you've got new DDays, new TT, more false R, more lies, and still don't feel like you have the full truth?

What he could be doing:

- Timeline of the A. "Doesn't remember" won't count and is unacceptable. He will look at a calendar, go back through emails/phone records/messages to get himself to remember.

- Polygraph - something I only recommend when the WS keeps lying, keeps TT'ing, and has been sticking to a story that is hard to believe and doesn't make sense.

R does not begin until you feel like you have a baseline of truth. Did your WH ever admit to anything physical with OW? Very hard to believe given how much she "loved" him, how much time they spent alone together, how they talked about openly dating as "polyamorous" behind you and OBS's backs, how she felt the need to write him a letter "for closure", and how he keeps going back to her and hiding it from you. That's a whole lot of drama for two people whose friendship got a little carried away but never even kissed. And how do you know she's the only OW with how often he's been out without you and drinking? Are there others that you don't know about? The clock of R re-sets to 0 when you find out you have been lied to once again.

If he refuses to give you a timeline and take a polygraph, do you believe it's wise to stay in Okokok's Still Together #2? You deserve better than that.

So your cheating spouse is looking for a guaranteed outcome?

That makes me mad 😡

I am 7 years from Dday 1 and happily reconciled. My H did the hard work b/c I was Divorcing him. But he refused to take “no” fir the answer and worked in the face of almost a guaranteed failure. He did it for along time. Not one day. Not one week. Not one month. He made amends for years. I saw it. I recognized the commitment he made to our marriage.

Yes I am one of the lucky ones.

But a cheater who will not try (against the odds) doesn’t give me an overwhelming feeling of success. Because at the first let down I fear they will just quit. And that’s just lazy and selfish behavior. It’s almost like having the attitude of “if I can’t win I’m not playing”.

We rebounded from my H wanting to D me and kicking me to the curb for the OW. Just to show you that marriages can claw their way out of the hole if both parties are really committed to it.

FYI I did not help my H at all on his path to making amends. He either did it himself and figured it out or we were going to end up D. And he did figure it out on his own. Which is why it worked b/c I wasn’t cleaning up after him. And still do not.

If he's reading here anyway, I don't see why he can't post his story on the Wayward Side, put up a stop sign, and start interacting with some of the smart people over there. If he wants to work on himself, help you, and try to save this thing, why wouldn't he?

Oh, he isn't reading here. I sent him the pinned post in the wayward forum, but he's been reading the surviving infidelity subreddit,

LLXC,

We both want to stay married because, despite this, we have a good connection, are great partners, and have years of history together. I think he really does want to reconcile. As far as whether or not he's capable of doing the work, that remains to be seen.

EllieKMAS,

1. The work a ws has to put in for true R requires a LOT of self-reflection and a willingness to be brutally honest about their actions and emotional state. IMHO if they possessed that, they wouldn't be a ws in the first place.

Totally agree, and I'm worried he won't be able to get to that honesty with me. What pisses me off is that he claimed to "brutally honest" with me on DDay1, when he told me he was polyamorous. Turns, out, that was a lie, too.

I also agree that true R is rare. It feels like a pipe dream at this point.

sisoon,

What is your H doing to figure out how to change from cheater to good partner? From what you say, he's looking at externals. To R, he needs to change his internals so he doesn't need external validation.

Yeah, I think that's fair. All of his ideas to move us forward, like quitting his bands and job and moving, feel very external. After he broke NC, I told him that he had to do IC or I was done. So he's doing that now. I think it will help.

We got in a big fight a couple of days ago. I asked him what he's done to show me that he wants this. He said, "I have cut off all of my friends." I didn't ask him to do this; in fact, I've encouraged him to talk to them so he could get it off of his chest, but I responded with something like, "You're fixing the wrong things. Cutting your friends out didn't prevent you from lying to me again. You need to figure out why that was so easy for you."

The one thing I'd add explicitly is that a lot of Ms breakdown after infidelity, but not because of infidelity. Rather, it's because the infidelity gets one partner to realize that the M has big problems in addition to infidelity, and that partner chooses to D because of the totality of problems, not just the A(s).

Yeah, that makes sense. I felt like we had a pretty good marriage, but yeah, there's a lot of cracks in the facade now that I'm looking at it from where I'm sitting now.

GiggleLoopMayor,

I agree that Reddit has a much different vibe than this forum does, and it's much quicker on the "leave that POS" type comments. Although, there were plenty of comments like that in JFO when I posted my original story. I think he could get a lot of insight if he posted on the wayward forum. He won't though. He thinks this site is toxic and that it's making me depressed and preventing me from moving on. But the reality is that the problem isn't SI, it's his choices.

Ouch, sorry to hear about your story. Congratulations on your divorce though. I may be naive but it does seem like people who get out quickly are able to heal faster. I'm sure it's not all greener pastures though. It's all pretty shitty.

Thumos,

You're right, infidelity is rampant and everywhere. It's fucking depressing that so many people are willing to put their spouse through actual trauma for their own "happiness."

JanaGreen,

So please. Even if R is your goal, know that if you do end up divorced, you'll be ok.

Thanks for the encouragement and wisdom. It's devastating to imagine being without him, but I know I'd be OK. I really want this to work, but I guess it's more up to him than me at this point.

nekonamida,

You're absolutely right. His actions are what count, and he hasn't exactly acted in the best interest of R.

Keeps giving you DDays (anti-R)

- Keeps breaking NC (anti-R)

- Refuses to give you the truth of A(s) by claiming he doesn't remember (anti-R)

- Keeps lying (anti-R)

- Read NJF (pro-R)

- Went to MC (pro-R) but dropped out (anti-R)

- No IC (anti-R)

- Talks about A (pro-R)

- Refuses to post on SI (anti-R)

- Reads online about infidelity (pro-R)

He's taken a few extra steps since Dday 3 (because I made him. I told him I'd be done if he didn't). He's blocked her on social media and his phone (I know he should have done that in the beginning). He's in IC now. And also, we quit MC because I wanted to. It was my decision. I didn't feel we were getting anywhere, and our MC was a moron who thought transparency undermined rebuilding trust.

I think we will get back into it eventually. Right now, though, we need to figure out our own shit individually, or at least he does. I will probably go back into IC myself to work through the anxiety and anger. He's also "remembered" a lot more details and has started answering my questions.

R does not begin until you feel like you have a baseline of truth. Did your WH ever admit to anything physical with OW? Very hard to believe given how much she "loved" him, how much time they spent alone together, how they talked about openly dating as "polyamorous" behind you and OBS's backs, how she felt the need to write him a letter "for closure", and how he keeps going back to her and hiding it from you. That's a whole lot of drama for two people whose friendship got a little carried away but never even kissed. And how do you know she's the only OW with how often he's been out without you and drinking? Are there others that you don't know about? The clock of R re-sets to 0 when you find out you have been lied to once again.

He still says it was never physical. I want to believe him, so much so that I almost do, but I just can't bring myself to let go of my suspicions. I agree that it's pretty freaking shady, and I were someone reading about our situation, I would also think that it's a lot of drama for just "friends" who accidentally crossed an emotional line. Also, she wrote me the letter, and met up with him in person for "closure"...eight months later...after they had already had a 40-minute goodbye call in November when NC was established.

As far as the polygraph goes, we're scheduling one when I get back from visiting my sister. He said he's going to sell some music gear to pay for it.

Part of our inability to move forward in R is my fault. I did the "pick-me" dance to the point where I'm truly ashamed of how little self-respect I had and how much I was willing to put up with to save the marriage. I also have a hard time seeing him hurting and hating himself, so I tried to shield him from the consequences of his actions. But no more. I'm done with that. Old-me would have told him that he didn't need the polygraph or that he didn't need to sell any of his music gear for it. New-me is just biting my tongue, showing that gut feeling down, and putting a list of polygraph questions together.

Thanks for all of your advice as always. You guys are awesome, and I don't know what I'd do without you.

[This message edited by Joanna1013 at 5:22 PM, July 18th (Saturday)]

The1stWife,

So your cheating spouse is looking for a guaranteed outcome?

Yeah, that's how I took it too.

Congratulations on reconciling. I feel like you guys are one in a million, but I don't have much hope at the moment. It's good to see that it can happen. Your story is an inspiration, and I appreciate you sharing it.

I'm a little worried that, because I didn't kick him out or tell him I wanted a divorced, he thinks I never will and that I'll always be here no matter what he does. I hope not, but that's how it feels at the moment.

FYI I did not help my H at all on his path to making amends. He either did it himself and figured it out or we were going to end up D. And he did figure it out on his own. Which is why it worked b/c I wasn’t cleaning up after him. And still do not.

This is what I want. He keeps asking me what he should do as if I have any answers. I keep sending him books and shit to read and have pushed him into IC, but he needs to step up and figure it out. And I need to step aside and let him.

80% R - and it's a little ridiculous because if that's true, why aren't most of us in R right now? R forum should be booming.

Oddly I’ve seen a stat that is about the opposite - less than a third of couples experiencing infidelity Reconcile - is we’re defining R as an actualized resoundingly fruitful and satisfying relationship for both people.

That would seem to be in line with what we see here at SI - which is a lot more people who are trying to R but are in pain.

It feels like stats on the subject are so all over the place that they really don't mean much of anything.

I feel like we all have such different ideas of what reconciliation means.

To me, true reconciliation results in a marriage that's reasonably happy, strong and that lasts, or at least one that doesn't end because of infidelity or the fall-out.

So, to me, if our marriage fails in two years, we haven't reconciled. Maybe the therapists who think couples mostly stay together after infidelity are just judging the first year or something.