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Men who whine about lack of sex when a baby arrives can kiss my...

On this point, I totally agree with you. I mean, WTF did you THINK was going to happen you idiot?! There's plenty of stats on this, they all tell the exact same story, sex goes way down for a few years, marital satisfaction goes down until the children leave the house. I have 0 sympathy for anyone who ventures into having children without a clear idea of what is very likely to happen, you are trading X for Y, make sure that's a trade you want/are happy with and understand. Of course, we do nobody any favors with the generic "happy talk" around this, some people aren't smart enough to seek out the information for themselves and just go with the old "Make everything better" or some other generic happy talk.

As far as I know he hasn't cheated. BUT he hasn't gotten off his ass to discuss why this is happening. He hasn't talked to her at all. He just jerks off every morning.

Well, that could have been me before the A, but I DID discuss it in depth with her. She gave the standard "unassailable" answers, "It's just who I am", "I don't need it much", "I don't much care for it". So, before you condemn this guy, know that he might have tried, might have tried really hard to talk to her about it. I sure did. Eventually though, you just have to give up and either accept your lot in life or get a D (or, of course, go full asshole and have an A). It's not entirely on him to fix this, in fact, if we're talking about a year + without sex, it's probably not his problem that needs fixing at all. He doesn't solely either control or own the responsibility to bring up and discuss it anymore than a BS owns the responsibility to discover the A if they want it to stop. No, someone in this relationship is doing something clearly wrong, and they need to be the ones to explain why the marriage is now sexless via unilateral decision. That might be OK with some, and perhaps an open marriage would be acceptable, but the person changing the nature of the relationship should really be the one to inform their partner "The rules have changed, no more sex" rather than have their partner come and beg for an explanation.

If he isnt going to address the issue then decides to cheat he has no sympathy from me.

Sympathy, no. Understanding, yes. But, if you flip that around, and have a controlling husband who uses his wife like a blowup doll, doesn't listen to her problems/concerns, doesn't respect her and then she goes out and cheats, does she have any sympathy from you? If so, why, what's the difference in your eyes between those two things? In both examples, the BS is doing things actively either with the intention of hurting their partner or just with no care for the hurt they cause.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 7:52 AM, July 25th (Saturday)]

I truly believe, if not for the sex drought that seems to have become "normal" today, a ton of our affairs never would have happened.

A "sex drought" is not some separate marital issue from the rest. If a wife doesn't want sex and the husband does, as only one example, they don't "have a great marriage except . . . " They have a marital issue like any other issue. This suggests that a need for sex and a need for love/marriage are different things, and many, many people want nothing to do with having a spouse who believes that because they value the physical intimacy of the M. It's not just some need like bathing that doesn't have anything to do with a relationship.

If a spouse is SO in need of sex and the other SO avoidant of sex, they have a marital crisis that needs to be addressed. It's no different than any other marital crisis.

People need to stop being conflict avoidant in their relationships. There are therapists, doctors, workshops. You don't have to assume divorce when you tell your spouse something is actually not ok (like being in a sexless M). And yes, it's totally conflict avoidant if you think to yourself, "I love the other 85% of my M, so I'll get over it." That's a recipe for disaster. People are not nearly as strong as they think when the right temptation shows up to exploit that 15% you aren't happy about. People need to work harder (communicating and solving) in their marriages, not just suffer better.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 9:35 AM, July 25th (Saturday)]

Sympathy, no. Understanding, yes. But, if you flip that around, and have a controlling husband who uses his wife like a blowup doll, doesn't listen to her problems/concerns, doesn't respect her and then she goes out and cheats, does she have any sympathy from you?

There is NO valid reason for cheating, thus No I would not have any sympathy or "understanding" for anyone who does so.

Its selfish. It's a shallow means to fill a void that only the individual can fill. And it doesnt do a damn thing to fix issues, whatever those issues are.

On the subject of a woman being used as a blow up doll....well been there done that. Laying back and just taking it isnt solving the issue. Communication and demanding better treatment of my wh does.

This suggests that a need for sex and a need for love/marriage are different things

They are completely different things in my mind. I often have a "need" for sex that's completely unrelated to love/marriage, in fact, almost all the sex I've had prior to my W had to do with a need for sex and little/no desire for love or marriage. The two don't even run in the same circles in my mind, it would be like comparing a desire for food with a desire to for marriage; yes, a marriage might provide that, but the desire for food exists entirely separate from that.

Rio-I have no idea what you are saying. Of course sex prior to marriage can exclude a desire to be married. If you are married, then marriage can not exclude sex without the agreement of the two parties. If you accepted a sexless marriage, then you are agreeing to it because you are not seeking a divorce or other form of intervention of the problem. You are deciding your needs to be married to this person are greater than your need for sex. No matter how you dice it, deciding to have an affair is a secretive, unilateral decision of the ws. Desire for Sex can exist without desire for marriage but I believe it is rare that a healthy marriage exists where there is a desire for marriage but not for sex unless you have two asexual people. It would be rare. Most of the time it’s like owningitnow expresses - it’s one or both being conflict avoidant of a major issue on your marriage. Why you are choosing to be conflict avoidant is another matter entirely.

As for what PTSI said - that there are two camps of people - people who are emotionally and physically distressed when they can’t connect in this way, and those who are not, and how they can never understand each other is so true.

Cheating because your marriage is bad is like setting your house on fire because you’re unwilling or unable to make repairs but you don’t want to go through the trouble of selling it.

Life is full of difficult choices. Sometimes those choices are between bad and worse. Sometimes those choices involve considerable sacrifice (ie, ending a marriage that’s become unbearable even if the lousy spouse is a good parent, or staying with a lousy spouse and upholding your end of the vows for the sake of your kids).

Only a truly selfish person thinks that they’re entitled to go through life avoiding these difficult choices and avoiding sacrifice without consequences. Reality doesn’t shape itself for your convenience.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 11:12 AM, July 26th (Sunday)]

Well, we're kind of off on a tangent, but I think it's at least somewhat related to the OT, so and I really do want to answer, so..

If you are married, then marriage can not exclude sex without the agreement of the two parties.

One party can unilaterally make the marriage sexless. I know plenty of people in that situation (at least claimed, who knows for sure). And I lived it myself, not sexless, but very low sexual activity unilaterally determined by my W. It's one of those things, "whoever cares less, wins"; generally, whoever is the "low desire" partner winds up setting the sexual frequency.

If you accepted a sexless marriage, then you are agreeing to it because you are not seeking a divorce or other form of intervention of the problem. You are deciding your needs to be married to this person are greater than your need for sex.

Well, this isn't (and wasn't) my situation, it wasn't "sexless". But I know people who are in that situation, and I suppose, yes, you can look at it that way. Usually it's not really the need for "marriage" (at least not in the way I think about it) that keeps the from D, it's their kids, their finances, and other things; if they could be "unmarried" and not lose their kids, I think a lot of them would do it. But, in general, I agree with you, they are making the decision "Need for marriage so I can see my kids is higher than my need to be married to someone I have regular sex with". And then, often, they make another decision "what he/she doesn't know won't hurt them, I just want to have sex and NOT lose my kids/wealth/etc", and.. Well, my W's AP was/is exhibit A here, that's exactly the kind of calculus that I'm sure he did.

But yes, he's the one who was agreeing to stay in that situation, no matter the reason, it's still on him. Just like it would have been on me if I'd gone out and had an A because my W was not at all interested in sleeping with me. I would have had other options, which, at that point, I think would have been all that was left (we'd talked about it endlessly, and she got me to believe "It's just who I am" to which, I eventually decided was OK. Terribly disappointing, but OK, and I was convinced I could live with it. And I did, for years).

but I believe it is rare that a healthy marriage exists where there is a desire for marriage but not for sex unless you have two asexual people.

Well, it's not that rare, I've seen 15-20% of marriages meet the criteria for "sexless". Are those marriages healthy? IDK. But I think it's pretty common; shoot, in my circle of friends, I think it's much higher than 1-5 who are "sexless" (at least in their definition, whatever the heck that is).

I will phrase this through an issue with sex, but the issue can be anything:

No time for their spouse

No help to their spouse

Friends of the opposite sex

Refusal to contribute to family finances

Overall depression and denial of help

Drug use

Overspending

Alcohol abuse

Going out with friends too often

Shrugging off domestic responsibilities

Ignoring the children

Mistreating the children

WHAT-ever!!!!

If it is a constant frustration and talking about it has not improved things, it then becomes an insult, a disrespect, an unloving action, an assault on the marriage. But fine, let's say one partner does not want sex. That is a hurtful assault on the marriage.

Per several capable and fantastic therapists who steered me in all the right (mostly same) directions, it is imperative that you:

Honestly

Authentically

As calmly and rationally as possible

Explain that you cannot and will not live without a loving, affectionate physical bond. If the unwilling spouse has medical or emotional issues, then effort and work are required to bring the couple to a mutually satisfying place. That is how partners stay united.

If no good, mutually satisfying agreement can be reached, then both partners are required--REQUIRED--to continue their union in honesty, sharing their truths as they really are. The partner who is unhappy must say,

"I feel very badly about your situation, and I love you. But I also love and respect myself. What should we do? Would you like me to use Tinder? Prostitutes? Or would you prefer we D? I will leave it up to you." Is this a tough conversation? Um, yep. Being a really capable adult is tough as hell.

Is someone who tolerates a lot of crap a strong person for what they can endure or a weak person for not extricating themselves from the situation?

Well, waywards frequently believe they were "solving their problem" without bothering anyone, the whole "You were never supposed to find out." I think we all agree, they are cowards. It turns out that telling people very, very hurtful or difficult things and bringing them into your confidence is a strength, not a weakness. Suffering is actually a default position, it comes to us easily and is not so strong at all. It's avoidant. Cowardly. Scared. Weak.

If you are in a sexless marriage and going along to get along, you are a coward. If you are unhappy in your sexless marriage, get honest and real, and get it solved. Anything else is dishonest, wayward-type thinking.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 3:52 PM, July 26th (Sunday)]

If no good, mutually satisfying agreement can be reached, then both partners are required--REQUIRED--to continue their union in honesty, sharing their truths as they really are. The partner who is unhappy must say,

"I feel very badly about your situation, and I love you. But I also love and respect myself. What should we do? Would you like me to use Tinder? Prostitutes? Or would you prefer we D? I will leave it up to you." Is this a tough conversation? Um, yep. Being a really capable adult is tough as hell.

I've got no issue with this, but, let's use my situation without any supposition here. I had this conversation with my W. My truth was "This is important to me" (which was the truth) and her's was "Well, that's just not who I am, I don't do that, don't enjoy sex very much, and don't want to engage in that with you". It was a big deal to me, but not so big that I couldn't "live without it". But, to be honest, I did think at times that perhaps prostitutes were the right answer (still kind of do, if I'm honest) because it would have solved my problem and seemed to give her what she wanted (a low sex relationship with all the benefits she already enjoyed).

The problem here isn't that I didn't have the conversation, I DID, at least a few times (to see if anything changed with her, it never did), the problem is that SHE LIED about her answer. If she'd told me the truth, "Yes, I will do those things in some situations, just not with you", well then, I would have had a real decision to make. And, although I think for me it would have been D, I really don't know, maybe if "but it's OK if you use pros for that". Probably not, but IDK, I did love her a lot and I think I MIGHT have been able to compromise there.

Here's the thing, it's an entirely academic discussion, because, simple facts, unless heading for D, very, very few people are going to tell the truth. In a perfect world, yes, we should just sit down, have the discussion and make decisions based on accurate and complete information. I don't think that any of us will ever get that. Maybe there are some people out there that will really have this talk and be forthright and honest but I don't think, in any way, that's even CLOSE to the normal.

Had I had that conversation with my W years ago, what would have happened? She would have continued to lie "I don't do that", coupled it with "Your a pig for wanting it and putting me in this situation", probably some "Go ahead, use pros if you want to, but I won't be here" and with a healthy dose of "I'm not your sex toy, and if you want that, go find someone else". Of course, while I would have been telling the truth, her's side would have been near entirely bullshit, she does/did do it (just not with me), the AP was the "love of her life" and got it, not a pig, he used pros and she was happy enough to fu*k him until he couldn't walk anymore, and she was thrilled to be his sex toy.

I'd love to see your impression of how the "sex is going to improve or I'm going to see pros" conversation plays out. Because I sure as hell don't think that most people are going to turn around and say, "I understand, and I really do still want our M, but just don't have the drive for sex with you that I used to, enjoy the pros, just wear a condom and don't fall in love. BTW, I'm hungry, is dinner almost ready"? I suppose it COULD go that way, but... I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that's rather unlikely, EVEN IF it's true, and my W has lost sexual attraction for me and would kind of be happy to have someone else "share the load" of dealing with my sexual energy, I just don't see that conversation having anything but a deeply negative outcome.

Thanks owningitnow you illustrated exactly what I was trying to say but you said it better.

As for your question, Rio, how does the convo play out?

In my first marriage I did divorce largely because of lack of sex. I was too young to accept a sexless marriage my entire life. While I was willing to accept less acts (he didn’t reciprocate oral), I was not willing to accept the infrequency or the lackluster way it was delivered. I felt like a bother or a job sexually.

First step? I talked to him about it. I tried to figure out where the issues were to see if we could compromise or come to some conclusion. We would make some sort of agreement and then he would not follow through on it. Second, I asked for counseling and he refused. Third, I made the boundary this was big enough for divorce. No change. This process was over a year as getting a divorce was something I did not want. But upon further inspection, it was a bigger indicator of other ways he was unwilling to sacrifice or compromise. Those things became magnified. I started trying to work through some of those. I even picked something smaller, that should have been easier for us to work on. In the end he really was refusing to see any of my needs as valid and there was no reason to continue the marriage. But I still contend to this day that the sexless thing would have been enough to be a deal breaker.

Yes sometimes people stay married for other reasons, but reasons expire. Reasons can also be sometimes be mitigated. If you stay, it is a decision. And if someone doesn’t care at all about your needs then I still don’t know how that is ever a healthy relationship. You can find a way to healthily exist in it, I am sure. But no the relationship is not healthy. I am not saying that a sex life doesn’t have some compromises, or that someone owes every act under the sun, or sex every day of the week. But marriage is compromise where both people have to make concessions.

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:17 PM, July 26th (Sunday)]

An MC or IC, the good ones, will tell you that if you choose to do without something in your relationship and say "The other benefits make it worth it," then you can't complain, whine, act in a passive aggressive manner, feel sad, look outside the M, or anything else dishonest and inauthentic. If you do those things, then you were LYING to your spouse when you told them you were fine living without.

It seems to me, RIO, that you are living dishonestly in your M. You are pretending. No wonder you are not happy.

Two choices:

Be fine with advocating for what's important.

Or be fine with doing without. Really fine.

Those are the only two healthy, authentic, honest ways to live in an M. Everything else causes problems for someone.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 7:59 PM, July 26th (Sunday)]

So to go back to the original post, if you STAY and act FINE without the sex you want, no, you cannot cheat. Because you gave your spouse the idea it was fine.

If it's not fine, you are required to tell your spouse before you 'justifiably' (haha) get your needs met elsewhere.

Sorry that life is hard. Put your big kid undies on and tell your spouse the f-ing truth. We all know that the lying and misrepresenting your feelings is maybe the hardest thing to deal with. Just BE HONEST ahead of time, not after.

Damn, this post is painful.

I was married for 15 years. I'd say about 2-3 of those years were good. At times we had a good sex life. I also remember flipping through "The Sex Starved Marriage" in a bookstore and quietly crying. It's a special kind of hell to be constantly rejected - and made to feel like you're a deviant for asking - by the person you've forsaken all others for. Even better when that person steps out on you. It's a particularly ego-shredding combo. But anyway.

When the marriage really is bad - our marriage was cracked and flawed and toxic long before the magical black-out drunk call girl incident that led me here. I often think about how painful the infidelity was for me. And then I try to imagine how much more it would have hurt if we had had a decent marriage.

I remember talking to a coworker of mine about his infidelities, and she told me that she couldn't imagine how she would feel if her husband did that. "He's the sweetest man, I love him so much. I would be devastated." And I was kind of floored because even though I thought I loved my husband, I could never imagine saying what she said and feeling it.

I don't know that I really have a point here. But maybe my point is, even though we had been married 6 years before the cheating started (and it never was an affair, it was a series of stupid drunken one-offs and ham-handed attempts to land younger women who politely deflected his attempts), it didn't happen in a vacuum. There were so many problems and so many cracks in the foundation. However, I was always trying to fix things. Reading book after book, trying to talk, suggesting counseling. I cringe now. No wonder his ego is huge. I'm certainly flawed, but he's the one who always held me at arm's length. If he had put one tenth of the energy he spent being self absorbed into working on our relationship we'd still be married, but that's not who he is. Our marriage was bad and his relationship with his newly minted fiancee is playing out the same way, despite us being totally different people in looks and personality. Never was me.

You are pretending.

This is just so huge. I could go on about my own experiences with this, but it always, always leads to misery in one way or another.

It's a really painful and shitty way to exist.

An MC or IC, the good ones, will tell you that if you choose to do without something in your relationship and say "The other benefits make it worth it," then you can't complain, whine, act in a passive aggressive manner, feel sad, look outside the M, or anything else dishonest and inauthentic. If you do those things, then you were LYING to your spouse when you told them you were fine living without.

And I did exactly that. I didn't whine about it, didn't withhold things from her because she was withholding sex, look outside or do anything dishonest. Was I sad? Yes, I was, but I told her that and worked to get over it. But, and maybe this is the point that's being missed here, I DIDN'T lie about it, either what I wanted or how I felt about the "no" answer. She DID lie about it, told me "it's not you, it's me, just who I am and my sexual preferences". That was a bold faced lie, which, of course, was laid bare by her affair. I honestly think that the advice given here is right, IF (huge IF), you trust your partner to answer truthfully. I just don't think that many people are likely to do that, and I know that in my situation, trying it in our married life before the A, all I got were lies.

Was I going to D because I didn't get anal sex regularly? No, I was not, and I never even hinted at it. I asked, we talked about it, she told me "it's just not something I'm interested in" (which if she'd added "with you" would have been the truth, but, as she told it, was a lie) and I accepted it.

It seems to me, RIO, that you are living dishonestly in your M. You are pretending. No wonder you are not happy.

First off, when I'm talking about this today, it's years ago that all this happened. That situation long ago resolved. I'm not "pretending" and wasn't, frankly, pretending back then either, I was "fine" with it. Sad, yes, the same way I'd be sad if I married a woman allergic to dogs and couldn't have them anymore. Yes, I love dogs, and it would be hard for me to not have them in my life, but, she's allergic and that's a compromise I'd have to make to marry her. The problem is, using that example, she's NOT allergic to dogs, in fact, she had an affair and played with dogs the entire time. It was a compromise made knowingly and accepted (by me) but made under false pretenses. And that's not at all the same thing, I'm "fine living without" IF you're (my WW) telling me the truth about yourself. But she wasn't, I was making a compromise based on a lie.

Be fine with advocating for what's important.

I'm in agreement here, but I can't help but say, it really does seem like this isn't exactly what most people actually want. In fact, when BS's try exactly that (advocating for what they want sexually) in R we often get 50 page long threads talking about coercion and rape.

But, Rio, this post really isn't about the post cheating, it's more about is it ever okay or more understandable to cheat. That's why it's being framed that way. The answer is no, it doesn't matter the state of the marriage. If the marriage is good or the marriage is bad, it comes down to the WS - how comfortable they are living a lie, how healthy they are as a person.

Cheating doesn't often happen in a vacuum without mitigating circumstances that can be pointed at in which the cheating party exploits and blames.

If you take what I did in my first marriage - it was healthy that I took the proper steps and then in the end chose to end the marriage because I was never going to be able to settle for what was being offered and no compromise was being made . If you take what I did in my second marriage, it was not only unhealthy it was inexplicable in many ways, at least on the surface. I went without sex in that first marriage for long periods but did not cheat. I felt really low, undesirable, sad, and hopeless in those circumstances. It would have been convenient enough to say "you didn't give me sex so I went and got it".

Second marriage - decades long. Compatible, for many years had sex at least once a day. As we had gotten older it had gone to 3-4 times a week which was comfortable for both of us. We never once have fought about sex, money or any of those things in our entire marriage. We have similar sensibilities about most things. It's always been easy with us.

In the first marriage scenario, I think it was just more obvious what I was unhappy about and what needed to be done. In the second scenario I was just miserable but couldn't understand why. It was far more nebulous, much darker, far less self aware. I found ways to blame him, or the ideology of marriage, when in all reality it was me who had become unhealthy. Bad boundaries, ignoring my depression, isolation, desperation. I don't think I would have gone and sought out an affair to cope, it was more here was a situation that was making me feel happy. It was like giving water to someone dying of thirst in the desert.

I say that because I think you keep thinking your wife didn't want this with you, but wanted it with someone else. By her actions that is a reasonable conclusion to make. But, far more likely that she had gotten to the point where her feelings about the crisis she was going through was unmanageable. You reduce it to kibbles, it's not just kibbles, it's really more the dopamine hits to the brain. They weigh so much more when there is a period of numbness, void, grief, etc. Your wife was really not that different than a woman trading sex for drugs. I wouldn't say that to everyone here, this is based on specific information you have given to me in the past about her. She used her resentment of how you were dealing with it to isolate herself from you and detach from you emotionally. None of this had to do with the fact she would have always done it with someone she was more attracted to. It doesn't translate that way. I am certain that if the affair had gone on for me, I would have definitely kept escalating what I was willing to trade sexually for it. I wouldn't have been thinking in those terms, but I would have definitely gotten more and more inclined to do what ever was asked. Not because the AP was special, or because I was more attracted to the AP, but because my desperation for not having those feelings taken away again and not having to go back to the barren empty place I was in when it started. The AP in my situation had less money, was less physically attractive to me, was much older than my H, was not an appropriate candidate for a relationship, yet the need for the affair feelings eclipsed my judgment and would have continued to do so as more was asked of me.

I can understand why you simplify it, but I think it doesn't help you to get to the place that you accept your wife was unhealthy, and whether she is still unhealthy is an unknown to me. I know she did a lot of IC, maybe still does. Has she really never been able to connect the dots this way?

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:15 AM, July 27th (Monday)]

I can understand why you simplify it, but I think it doesn't help you to get to the place that you accept your wife was unhealthy, and whether she is still unhealthy is an unknown to me. I know she did a lot of IC, maybe still does. Has she really never been able to connect the dots this way?

Yes, she has connected the dots that way. And as you said, she's had plenty of therapy to help her connect those dots. Maybe it's true (in her case, and I think it is true in your case), but, that's not all that helpful for me because while it COULD be true, it's also the "right answer", even if it's not true, this is exactly what someone is going to claim because it's the least offensive way possible to explain away an A. "I was unhealthy" is a hell of a lot better than "He was so hot and made me orgasm so hard that I gave him whatever he wanted". And the 2nd is, at least sometimes, true. But it's also a completely "unacceptable" truth, and, as such, will never be said by any WS who's doing anything other than preparing for D.

Your wife was really not that different than a woman trading sex for drugs.

I'd agree with that, however, I'd also agree with that in a lot of other WS's stories I've read here. "Desperate to feel something" and "Would do anything to keep getting the kibbles" is a hell of a lot better than "I just needed to f**k him so badly that I'd do anything for him". Why do people trade sex for drugs? Well, we can dig into addiction, habituation, bad life circumstances and lots of other things, but there's an underlying reason too, one that I feel qualified to answer from my past. It's a simple answer, "Because nothing feels as good" as the drugs do. The feeling "hard" drugs give is otherworldly, you will never feel that "good" normally, and people are chasing that feeling, that "good beyond human experience" feeling, which leads them to do things that are unimaginable to most of us. But there's logic in it, the drugs really are "that good", which, of course is why we strongly restrict access to them. People who make that decision aren't idiots, they just aren't thinking long term; yes, short term, drugs will make you feel better than anything else in the world, long term, they'll destroy your life. But nothing that's not "drugs" holds a candle to the feeling they provide; I often wonder if A's are similar..

None of this had to do with the fact she would have always done it with someone she was more attracted to. It doesn't translate that way. I am certain that if the affair had gone on for me, I would have definitely kept escalating what I was willing to trade sexually for it. I wouldn't have been thinking in those terms, but I would have definitely gotten more and more inclined to do what ever was asked. Not because the AP was special, or because I was more attracted to the AP, but because my desperation for not having those feelings taken away again and not having to go back to the barren empty place I was in when it started.

I understand. I just don't know how I will ever "know" for sure. I was thinking today about this, and was trying to run a thought experiment of my own. I've had a MFM threesome before, and I was thinking, if my wife had asked for that (before the A) would I have done it with her. If not, why not? Well, I kind of think the answer is "no, I wouldn't have" (I'm really not sure, it's hard for me to think back to that time), but, the "why" is the more interesting thing in my mind. I've done it before, why not with her. Well, there are hosts of reasons, as you might expect, lots of "issues" doing that in a serious relationship, lot's of potential very serious downsides that don't exist in casual encounters. But then I started to expand that thought in my mind, what if she had been more adventurous in bed? The few times I did that in the past, it was always with girls I'd slept with that were gangbusters in bed. So, would I have done it with her if she'd been more like that? Well, it would have played into it, that's for sure. What if she was more attractive or I was less attractive (a bigger disparity between our looks)? Well, that would have played into it too, doing more for her because I felt like she was "out of my league". I guess you could say, I've "held that back" from my W, and while I could give you lots of "good sounding" reasons, there are ALSO other reasons, simply put "I don't feel like I have to". IDK, this was just a little thought experiment I had running around, trying to imagine myself in the "yes for her, no for you" situation with something that's not very high on my sexual desires list, but that I'd done before with other people. It's complex, but there is certainly a "hot enough" component in there for me (which encompasses stuff like looks, sexual skill, enthusiasm, etc).

I realize that this same equation is playing out in an A, but the variables are all different than what I'm trying to imagine. It's just hard for me to conceive of it entirely, so I think I struggle a lot to draw analogies and relative context in my mind.

I think it is true in your case), but, that's not all that helpful for me because while it COULD be true, it's also the "right answer", even if it's not true, this is exactly what someone is going to claim because it's the least offensive way possible to explain away an A.

It is completely up to you how you want to look at it. If you accept her answer, it doesn't mean you accept or excuse or excuse the affair. If you don't accept her answer, then I would believe it compounds your suffering. You have chosen to stay married. My husband always says (and he said this also not that long ago on this site) that the pain of divorce is temporary. (He has been divorced twice), marriage is not temporary.

I'd agree with that, however, I'd also agree with that in a lot of other WS's stories I've read here. "Desperate to feel something" and "Would do anything to keep getting the kibbles" is a hell of a lot better than "I just needed to f**k him so badly that I'd do anything for him". Why do people trade sex for drugs? Well, we can dig into addiction, habituation, bad life circumstances and lots of other things, but there's an underlying reason too, one that I feel qualified to answer from my past. It's a simple answer, "Because nothing feels as good" as the drugs do. The feeling "hard" drugs give is otherworldly, you will never feel that "good" normally, and people are chasing that feeling, that "good beyond human experience" feeling, which leads them to do things that are unimaginable to most of us. But there's logic in it, the drugs really are "that good", which, of course is why we strongly restrict access to them. People who make that decision aren't idiots, they just aren't thinking long term; yes, short term, drugs will make you feel better than anything else in the world, long term, they'll destroy your life. But nothing that's not "drugs" holds a candle to the feeling they provide; I often wonder if A's are similar..

It was definitely the case in my situation, I was a crack ho basically. But, the "drugs" were not orgasms. I never had an orgasm in the presence of the AP. To be clear that I am not really trying to minimize anything, I am only stating it here to better show my point. I don't think it makes what I did better by any means. It's just honestly what happened because it was so short term and so few encounters. So, if I can act like a crack ho, it wasn't really over physical pleasure then I know it's possible that others can too. I have said many times that I enjoyed the sex at the the time of the affair, but by far it wasn't like it was some sort of crazy orgasm farm or anything of a magnitude that I had even experienced with my husband. The sex really was nothing out of the ordinary tbh. But the high feelings of the fantasy of who I was, who we were, being in this little fantasy bubble in which I was this special unicorn that's enough to get you high without any sex. The majority of my affair was without sex because it was long distance, but I was every bit as limerent and buying into the whole thing - desperate enough to do about anything to keep it going. It's really sad when I look back on it, I was worth far more than what I lowered myself to be. I was a POS spending all my time with another POS, it's really disgusting to look back on. It doesn't objectively change the answers though.

You are exactly right , it was all short term thinking. I never thought much past the day I was on because it was too...realistic? I think you are imagining that part right, other than what is making you high is your own self-adulation more than anything. Believing that you are someone different, believing you are part of something so special it transcends the rules. It's really stupid, and disgusting to say that, but that's what it's like.

I understand. I just don't know how I will ever "know" for sure. I was thinking today about this, and was trying to run a thought experiment of my own. I've had a MFM threesome before, and I was thinking, if my wife had asked for that (before the A) would I have done it with her. If not, why not? Well, I kind of think the answer is "no, I wouldn't have" (I'm really not sure, it's hard for me to think back to that time), but, the "why" is the more interesting thing in my mind. I've done it before, why not with her. Well, there are hosts of reasons, as you might expect, lots of "issues" doing that in a serious relationship, lot's of potential very serious downsides that don't exist in casual encounters. But then I started to expand that thought in my mind, what if she had been more adventurous in bed? The few times I did that in the past, it was always with girls I'd slept with that were gangbusters in bed. So, would I have done it with her if she'd been more like that? Well, it would have played into it, that's for sure. What if she was more attractive or I was less attractive (a bigger disparity between our looks)? Well, that would have played into it too, doing more for her because I felt like she was "out of my league". I guess you could say, I've "held that back" from my W, and while I could give you lots of "good sounding" reasons, there are ALSO other reasons, simply put "I don't feel like I have to". IDK, this was just a little thought experiment I had running around, trying to imagine myself in the "yes for her, no for you" situation with something that's not very high on my sexual desires list, but that I'd done before with other people. It's complex, but there is certainly a "hot enough" component in there for me (which encompasses stuff like looks, sexual skill, enthusiasm, etc).

Hmmm. I am trying to mull this one over. As you know, my H really could have whatever menu he wanted. There are a few things I am not fond of and I did limit those things immediately with the AP. However, by the end, I probably would have still thrown them out as options. But, you are right there is some level of "I really don't have to do this" when it comes to anyone's sex life. For the AP, it wouldn't have been about his attractiveness, or his skills. It would have been pure desperation to keep it going, to try and keep him around, to keep feeding it. There is no question in my mind that in some alternative scenario, where we would have left our spouses for each other that those things would be gone pretty quick back off the menu. Because they fall as your wife said "something I am not interested in". And, in that scenario to be in reality with him as a significant other, the whole thing would have fallen apart very quickly. I would have had to have been faced with the fact that I left a better person for a much worse person. I can only derive that would have limited the menu even worse.

If you had ended up with the chick you did the MFM with - don't you feel that would have gone off the menu pretty quickly? Because the reason you likely don't want it with your wife is because you don't like sharing the person you love. That is not inherent to who you really are. So, if you were staying with the MFM chick, and you loved her, the same answer would have been true.

[This message edited by hikingout at 10:43 AM, July 27th (Monday)]

If you had ended up with the chick you did the MFM with - don't you feel that would have gone off the menu pretty quickly? Because the reason you likely don't want it with your wife is because you don't like sharing the person you love. That is not inherent to who you really are.

That's a really interesting question. The simple answer, "It depends". And most of what it depends on is how I feel about her/us/our relationship and our sex life. But, I really do think that there are some answers that would lead to "Yes, I'd do that with you". No, I'm not crazy about the idea of sharing the person I love, but, shoot, I wasn't "crazy" about the thought of LOTS of sexual acts that I do regularly now. If I was "crazy enough" about my partner though, lots of lines start to get "fuzzy". If my W asked me for a MFM, I'd tell her to GFYS, but a lot of that has to do with who SHE is, how I feel about her, how attractive she is to me, my trust level with her, etc. If I felt differently, trusted her more, felt that this was something that was really about us together.. I'd honestly consider it. But that's ALL about her, she gonna get a "hard no" because of HER, not because of me. I'm open to it WITH THE RIGHT PERSON, which is not her (or at least not her right now). And I think that's where it flies off the rails, I don't have many "hard limits" when it comes to my sexuality, I have "limits per person", things I will do with some and not others because of how I feel about them/our relationship/etc.

Long way of saying, I doubt MFM would have been something I personally wanted long term, but, with the right person, I could see it being something I'd be OK with in our relationship. But that "OK" is predicated entirely by my feelings for the other person, absolutely crazy about them, blowing my mind in bed, open to my fantasies too, well.. Then yeah, I'd consider something "just for her" like that. If I'd continued to date a girl I did it with in the past, I really don't know.. I didn't "hate it", it just wasn't something I loved and would seek out for myself. But if I loved them, and they were making my fantasies come true, well, I think I'd be inclined to do the same for them.

I don't relate to "the right person" stuff. I am the same sexually pretty much with any of the people I have been with, at least in a long term relationship. There are things I withheld earlier in a relationship as trust was built, but that's really the only line I can think of. I am who I am no matter who I am with, so I don't relate. I am not interested in an MFM, so I am unlikely to do that with anyone. There was a time that H and I were both interested in FMF, and we did those things at the time. Stopping had more to do with what it entailed rather than limiting it from one another.