SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

And for others, it's an absolute necessity that starts to affect their emotional and mental health if they can't connect that way.

Yeah this describes STBXWS to a "T" he said it is like food or water for him whereas for me I need to feel safe and treated with respect in order to keep that flow going. As far as a necessity it would probably fall below a need for me definitely.

Yeah this describes STBXWS to a "T" he said it is like food or water for him whereas for me I need to feel safe and treated with respect in order to keep that flow going. As far as a necessity it would probably fall below a need for me definitely.

I just edited my post to reply to yours, actually, because yeah your marriage sounds like an example of that.

I'm absolutely in the school of sex being like food or water. If I go too long without, I start getting irritable and unhappy. And no, masturbation doesn't solve that issue in the slightest. It's about connecting with my partner in that way, not really about the physical release (that too occasionally, but not as often).

You're literally the poster marriage for my comments above about mismatched libidos.

I'm just totally confused at this point. The first 5 years we had lots of sex, then after my first child was born we had less sex. He started threatening divorce if I didn't start having more sex. I was scared and I also did not feel like having more sex. It eventually led to me not desiring him and most likely turned into duty sex. The sex was not intimate it was like porn sex and I felt like a blow up doll. That is why I say the 45 minutes is too much. I would literally be in pain or just not able to be into it praying that he would climax soon.

We did open the marriage up at one point so it's not that I don't like sex i believe I don't like the sex with my STBX or how it makes me feel. This is definitely something I'm going to have to work out in therapy because at the moment I would describe myself as asexual. I haven't had sex in a year, I can count the times I've masturbated and still nothing.

Butforthegrace

What about the marriage that really is bad in terms of sex. Say, a husband who has become a couch potato beer slob, playing video games and drinking in his free time, ignoring his wife, but otherwise is a good provider and an attentive father to his children?

Is the wife in that case really constrained with divorce, or no sex?

Marriages are contextual in the sense that the people in those marriages set the ground rules. There are general rules that most marriages abide by, but that doesn't have to be the case.

In the above, it depends on what the two people agree to. The wife could have a serious discussion with the husband - either he's got to get his shit together or divorce or an open marriage or what have you.

What about the other way, a wife who becomes sexless after children, constantly rebuffs her husband's sexual advances, devotes all of her attention to her children.

Is the husband's choice there either divorce, or no sex?

It all depends. A conversation must be had. It could be that the two agree that the marriage should be opened, for example.

I guess a lot of men in that circumstance nowadays opt for the third rail: online porn and Rosie. Is that itself a species of infidelity?

It could be, yes. It depends on the other partner. Most partners (?) would say that porn/masturbation is not cheating but some do think it is.

Butforthegrace

I thought of the question because of a recent thread in JFO. A newly minted BH. He talks about how he realizes his marriage was truly bad leading up to his WW's A. She has told him that it was so awful she was about to divorce him. Having her A, per the WW, was a way of kicking the can down the road for her, in part because she didn't relish the idea of breaking up their family.

There, the BH seems to accept the idea that the marriage was bad, and that he was a big contributor to this. According to the thread, the WW made multiple efforts to get the BH to MC, or IC, or other help, before commencing her A.

In that case the WW should have, in no uncertain terms, said that she was going to go outside the marriage unless changes were made. If he was not okay with that then they divorce. Affairs are a lot more than just sex. They involve betrayal and deceit. The destroy the fundamentals of relationships because of this.

PSTI

Why would you want to stay in a marriage that really is bad? Wouldn't divorce clearly be a better option at that point?

Agreed - also I don't think that it could just be silo'd to lack of sex. There would be a lot of other dysfunctions in the relationship, I would imagine.

I do think it is borderline abusive at best for one spouse to entirely deny or only reluctantly participate in sex, and yet expect their partner to be monogamous. It's one thing to decide for yourself, but I don't think it's even remotely acceptable to make that choice for someone else.

I totally agree with you here.

But cheating should not be the option here. I would either be very clear with my partner that I still had needs and that I would be pursuing them, assuming that I did want to stay married to someone who could make such a unilateral decision. Then the ball is back in my partner's court to decide if they are okay with that. If not, they can be the one to choose to end things since they made that first decision.

Yup. In my mind the primary issue with affairs is that they destroy the trust in a relationship. The sex matters, of course, but you can still destroy a relationship with an emotional (sexless) affair.

If I wanted a monogamous relationship that still involved sex, I would divorce my spouse. No one wants duty sex or reluctant sex, and no one should be told that sex is off the table completely. A healthy sex life is part of a healthy marriage, except in the case of asexuals and this should be discussed prior to marriage. Sex is a need, not a want, for many of us.

But at NO POINT is cheating the answer. Be open and up front and honest with your spouse! Communicate. Care about what they think and feel and say. And that solves the vast majority of problems right there- when both spouses treat each other that way.

Exactly.

but I don't agree that people should be content over lack of sex if it's an ongoing problem.

I’m not really saying they have to be content. Just saying that a couples sex life can change over the course of a relationship due to many many factors, so if you’re going into a relationship expecting that it will never ever change, you’re probably setting yourself up for disappointment.

I’m not really saying they have to be content. Just saying that a couples sex life can change over the course of a relationship due to many many factors, so if you’re going into a relationship expecting that it will never ever change, you’re probably setting yourself up for disappointment.

Now that is true. I have nothing but contempt for men who bitch about getting less sex when a woman is pregnant or has small children. Do the men I'm talking about help with the kids? No. She wears herself out often working a full-time job as well. To hear some of those men complain because they feel neglected makes my blood boil. Nursing and taking care of babies and toddlers is absolutely exhausting and at the end of the day, you may just want to lay down somewhere with no one hanging on you in any fashion. Then you have age-related issues and periods of life stress, etc. I'd never expect my partner to always be ready to go at the drop of a hat no matter what was going on.

You're literally the poster marriage for my comments above about mismatched libidos. Your WH isn't wrong for wanting sex more than 3x a week and for long sessions (if that's how you define 45 min sessions- I would not) and more than you are wrong for not wanting it. The affairs are wrong. But having a very high sex drive is not. I would say your WH could probably use some work on his skills as a sex partner if his idea of sex is boring your or dissatisfying you, but shaming someone for their frequency of desire isn't cool either. You should not be in pain after only 45 minutes of sex, but it sounds like he was much more fixated on his needs rather than yours.

I could totally identify with crazy blind-sided on this.

Sorry. You have it wrong.

There is a huge difference between a high drive and basically being a living, breathing blow up doll where your spouse is literally using you to get off.

My husband has a high drive with me sober. High. Not so much.

And when he's deep in his SA, he absolutely treated me like a blow up doll with a hole.. Because that's part of his addiction.

I mean, it's fine if you condone one partner using the other partner sexually.

That's not a situation I care to put myself in.

If there's one thing I've learned in my short life...if I feel like shit while I'm doing it....there's a good reason for it, and I probably shouldn't be doing it.

Do you guys don't have any idea. I haven't felt a women's touch or kiss or sex in 10 yrs. I have ED issues. My wife reminds me everyday. I haven't been touch or kissed for all that time. I was over weight. She made fun of me in front of our 3 sons. Yes I'm a mad hatter. I hate my life. I hate my wife. I don't want to monkey branch but wth. I have lost 180 lbs. I think I look good. My wife is mean and cruel. Her infidelity was rug swept by the church. Mine 30 yrs ago was treated like I was the antichrist. I planned on leaving after our 1st child was born. She had post pardum. Which excuses her cruelty. I guess. Hers was 20 yrs later ra. We've now been married 32 yrs. Not good yrs.btw. My prents were in a bad relationship.

Double post

[This message edited by Lostallalone at 5:40 PM, July 24th (Friday)]

I'm just totally confused at this point. The first 5 years we had lots of sex, then after my first child was born we had less sex. He started threatening divorce if I didn't start having more sex. I was scared and I also did not feel like having more sex. It eventually led to me not desiring him and most likely turned into duty sex. The sex was not intimate it was like porn sex and I felt like a blow up doll. That is why I say the 45 minutes is too much. I would literally be in pain or just not able to be into it praying that he would climax soon.

We did open the marriage up at one point so it's not that I don't like sex i believe I don't like the sex with my STBX or how it makes me feel. This is definitely something I'm going to have to work out in therapy because at the moment I would describe myself as asexual. I haven't had sex in a year, I can count the times I've masturbated and still nothing.

It sounds like this is definitely your WH's issue and not yours. But I think that the libido issues are a symptom and not the problem. Sex shouldn't be something to endure, ever! In my marriage I have the higher libido by far, but I don't want my partner to feel obligated. That being said, he is much happier when I have other partners because it means he knows I will be taken care of even when he isn't in the mood. Covid has certainly given us a monkey wrench in that regard since we're in isolation and I can't see my boyfriend.

My husband knows though that frequent sex makes us both happier and more connected. It's just tough when we're exhausted and stressed out and getting almost no time alone because of Kiddo.

Porn sex can be intimate, though. I don't think the one excludes the other. I do believe though that what you were sharing with your husband was much less than satisfying for you and that's truly awful :(

I mean, I guess I just don't understand not wanting sex most of the time, because I'm way over on the far side of the spectrum. I get that people are tired or stressed, but sex generally makes you feel better, enhances intimacy and connection, etc. If you don't feel aroused, then it's an opportunity to spend quality time with your partner and get in tune with each other again. And if it's not good in the moment, speak up so your partner can make changes and make it better, right? It's supposed to be a mutual thing. It really sucks that your WH didn't feel that way :(

I get that doesn't work when there's dysfunction going on. But I sure like it in theory.

Porn sex can be intimate, though. I don't think the one excludes the other.

Completely agree.

I am so glad that I waited to reply to this topic and read through all the posts.

So, what if the Marriage is ideal for the WS. Not perfect, but the perfect fake family life that WS wants the world to see.

My marriage was always BAD for me, right from the start. My WS treated me like a slave, sex slave, blow up doll, house keeper, cook, cleaner and bread winner and solo parent.

My WH did whatever stupid idea popped into his head and never worried about the consequences. I was there to fix it when things turned bad. And with WH nothing good came out of his bad deals.

As for Sexual compatibility. WS was more about Quantity and I was more about Quality. Yes were are opposites in every way.

Each time we went into an Ice Cream store with 60 flavours, he’d get 3 scoops of Vanilla and I, 1 scoop of whatever was the Ice cream of the day or a flavour I hadn’t tried. He would end up eating half of my scoop while offering me his Vanilla. True story. It became a running joke even with my now adult children.

If I initiated sex, then we both got to enjoy it. I was Love making, something that my WH never quite understood, even when we had many conversations about this. He just didn’t want to see my side. He tried but still rushed it and did what he enjoyed.

Some sexual acts where absolutely off the table. NO ANAL. My WH expressed an interest in sex with a Transgender male/female. He possibly did seek this out. His exAP possibly was trans and gave him that.

I had no sexual experience when we met, so I thought it was normal to be competing on how many times we could have sex in a day. Seriously, after 3, No 4 & 5 were just painful and I shut off hoping it would just end. WH was freaking proud of his numbers. He was winning. I felt completely empty.

Married 32 years, we went through the lot a marriage throws at you, plus the added bonuses of WH cheating, lying and getting involved in criminal activity. (What a shit thing to do for the love of money) WH was never going to be Happy with a simple happy family life. He was always attracted to bad.

So, yeah, the marriage was great for his public image. When I complained about anything at all, his standard response was, ‘if you don’t like it, then you can fuck off’. Fuck off to where exactly with 3 young children in tow.

I now understand how so many women and children end up homeless or in shelters.

I know that there are men who are abused in a marriage, but you don’t see as many men seeking support for domestic violence and sexual assault. (Yes, I know there are more good men out there than bad, the good ones are my friends).

Before we were married, we discussed that cheating would be the end of our marriage. WH agreed. So WH ended our marriage but wouldn’t leave. He still lives in that big house I built him, watching Hard core porn, that’s a fact and masturbating over It.

I knew things were off in my marriage before the A. He was distant, had no interest really when I tried to talk to him about my day. I remember one day he actually said, “ I don’t know your co-workers why would I be interested in hearing you talk about them?” I tried to get him to to talk to me, to no avail. I knew he was stressed at work and we would be movine soon so it should get better, right? Our sex life had been steadily going down the drain. The few times a year I could actually get him to have sex with me, took a lot of work and he usually had to be drunk. He was a great father, we had fun together, no one makes me laugh as much as he does. He is very helpful around the house. He just had episodes where he was moody and he really wasn’t interested in sex. He has a family history of bipolar disorder, I’m fairly certain he is bipolar. He has severe ptsd. I chalked it all to that and as much as I didn’t want to admit, I believed he was disgusted with my body. I enjoy sex and miss it very much but it wasn’t something I was willing to divorce him over. I could have and same days I really wish I had.

After the A and talking about all of it. It was the ptsd that was the reason he was distancing himself. He says the lack of sex life was he was struggling with ED and was too embarrassed to even try. I don’t know if I believe that. I remember it being an issue once or twice. I remember him once saying he had asked his primary doctor about viagra because of it. She laughed and said no because he was too young and his issues were caused by his depression. I’d like to believe him but ED was not an issue he had with his little side whore. On the other hand, I’m a super model compared to her. I don’t know what to believe about that.

What about the other way, a wife who becomes sexless after children, constantly rebuffs her husband's sexual advances, devotes all of her attention to her children.

I see you have met my ex. After DD was born it was like a switch flipped and suddenly I was the very last thing on her priority list. I chose not to cheat and instead spent years foolishly trying to make things work, but I don't feel much in the way of sympathy for women who do this to their husbands and end up being cheated on. That's probably going to be controversial on this website, but it's my personal opinion that to ignore your spouse emotionally and physically is a serious betrayal in its own right. "To have and to hold" is just as much a part of your vows as "forsaking all others" and if you were treating your spouse like a roommate and they have an affair, you don't exactly occupy moral high ground if you were breaking your vows and being a shitty spouse too. Of course, I'm not sure what the point of trying to rebuild a marriage that far gone would be either.

[This message edited by firenze at 9:24 PM, July 24th (Friday)]

Marriages are just business contracts with emotional and sexual elements. I don't have a very rosy outlook on them after considering their place in history. They've always been born out of convenience and meeting necessities. "Marry my daughter so you can get this land I've got." "How about we marry, I provide us food and shelter and you watch the kids and keep our home in order, deal?" "I'm rich, how about you bang me once in a blue moon and go with me to movie premieres and you can take half my shit in less than ten years." Ideologies were the only things that have kept together two unhappy, unfulfilled people who weren't getting value from their (replaceable) partner. "If I divorce, I go to Hell." "We must keep the nuclear family no matter the cost because that's what being a good citizen means." "What would my parents think?"

All that's gone now. There's a huge possibility that both people are employed, so survivalism isn't keeping people together. Even if people are religious, they're not "I will go to Hell if I divorce"-religious, so that's out the window. The only people who stay together for "their country" live on a compound somewhere. And most people don't really mind disappointing their family. All of those justifications are off the table. Oxytocin goes away and then you're left with this other human being for better or worse. But what happens if you find yourself in "for worse"? Why should unhappy people stay together?

Well, you can CHOOSE to stay with them for many reasons. Maybe you fancy yourself a loyal guy/gal and you're in it for life. Maybe they provide all the material pleasures you desire even if they're an abusive piece of shit. Maybe they're fun company despite being a complete waste of space. Maybe you don't want to obliterate your family unit and see your kids only half the time. Lots of reasons still exist which keep two very unhappy people together. I know many of these types and they all make me feel like my cheating ex gave me a golden parachute by abandoning me without looking back.

This is all to say, there is no easy answer. Nobody can tell you what you should or should not do. We can all weigh in and relate our own personal struggles and choices, but at the end of the day, if you can't dig deep and find some reason to stay, whether it's legitimate or some bullshit you tell yourself to sleep at a night (and who are any of us to say which is the case, really), you should just leave. The loneliness of solitude can be very shitty sometimes, but it doesn't hold a candle to the loneliness of sleeping next to a partner you know to be a liar and a cheat who doesn't have your best interest at heart.

Both partners create the marriage they are in, through the way they act and what they allow or tolerate.

Marriages WILL be unpleasant at times, and spouses can be difficult or stubborn. Marriages can make us feel beyond stuck.

But we all have choices, even if they feel like horrible ones. We have resources to help us. Deciding to cheat as a solution is a choice to deceive. As a very astute MC said to me, "When you deceive to survive the issue in the marriage, you deny your spouse the truth--that you are unhappy enough about this thing or things to step out of the marriage, to betray them, to lie. You didn't even respect them enough to let them know your true feelings before you did it. It's conflict avoidant to feel badly about something in the M but pretend you are ok."

Looking at it from her perspective then, there is still NO excuse to cheat unless you literally tell your spouse first. Only then are you giving them the truth of their marriage. It doesn't matter if they don't like it; that's an entirely different issue. What everyone deserves is the truth of how each partner feels and how each partner is behaving. Only then can fair decisions be made.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 11:38 PM, July 24th (Friday)]

What about the marriage that really is bad in terms of sex. Say, a husband who has become a couch potato beer slob, playing video games and drinking in his free time, ignoring his wife, but otherwise is a good provider and an attentive father to his children?

Honestly it’s a bit of a straw man you’ve set up here to knock down. I’m of the mind that most marriages just aren’t usually bad enough to “justify” infidelity. I think it’s more the case that WS’s are just lazy - emotionally and intellectually.

You see the dead bedroom stuff all over Reddit’s Adultery forum but I seriously doubt most of them have put any actual effort into doing anything about it. Entitled whiny babies most of the time.

I contend most infidelity happens in good marriage - with a 50 percent divorce rate we can easily surmise most divorces are caused by infidelity and some number more by addiction, abuse or just two selfish a-holes who couldn’t learn to be empathetic humans.

Does it make any logical sense to think 50 percent of all marriages are bad? Facially absurd. Thus infidelity happens mostly in good marriages where one cheating spouse has decided their bottomless pit of “needs” wasn’t being perfectly filled.

This is obviously a lie since no other human is ever capable of filling all of another human’s open baby maw of “needs”

I see you have met my ex. After DD was born it was like a switch flipped and suddenly I was the very last thing on her priority list.

Never heard that one before. :(

In fact, that's pretty much exactly the line I've heard from pretty much every WH I've ever known well enough to talk to me about it (which, granted, is a relatively small group).

And the kind of funny thing is, (with at least one exception coming to mind from my personal life) almost all these men absolutely want their marriages, and they love their wife/kids. I've said the before, but a lot of these guys would go from talking up the wife, showing off pictures of his family, and then, 30 minutes later, looking for an AP.

I truly believe, if not for the sex drought that seems to have become "normal" today, a ton of our affairs never would have happened. My W's AP was a 1X a month guy, with my wife, he was 3-4X a day. I suspect that the latter is much more in keeping with his preferred sexual frequency than the former. Doesn't excuse what he did, it's a reason, but it's not an excuse; but I can understand why he did it. There is a logical path that leads to an A, "Want more sex", "Talked about it with BS, cannot come to agreement", "Do not want to get a D", "Love my BS and my kids".. And from that corner (which again, you may have painted yourself into, some people are just unreasonable!), it follows logically to "have an A". That's the path my WW's AP took, I know it is, both from discussions with him and the OBS. Sex is the only "unique" thing on offer in an A; if you take my path above and change the core desire to "Want someone to pay more attention to me", well, you have 1000 ways you can go. Put more time in at work. Get in better shape/wear more revealing clothes. Find common interests with someone who's attention you want. Change it to "I'm lonely", well, here's SI, post away. Or Facebook, or a million other social media outlets. "I want someone to love me", if we're talking about non-sexual love, well, a million ways to work out that core desire too. It's only "more sex" that has the unique position that the only way to get it for many is an A.

Intimacy is much lower on the hierarchy of needs than self-actualization. It's also below esteem/respect/status. We seem to ignore that often here and jump right up the ladder to more esoteric and "deep" needs, real or imagined, to explain affairs, when, at least in my personal experience, that's not usually what's being sought out at all.

Thus infidelity happens mostly in good marriages where one cheating spouse has decided their bottomless pit of “needs” wasn’t being perfectly filled.

^^^^^^This.

Wh and I were having sex almost daily. DAILY!!!

Yet he decided to go have his fuxk fests.

He even got sex THE DAY I CAME HOME FROM THE HOSPITAL AFTER HAVING A C SECTION ... he insisted and I eventually ended up back in the hospital.

Men who whine about lack of sex when a baby arrives can kiss my...

And yet I know a man who hasn't had sex with his SO in over a year. As far as I know he hasn't cheated. BUT he hasn't gotten off his ass to discuss why this is happening. He hasn't talked to her at all. He just jerks off every morning.

If he isnt going to address the issue then decides to cheat he has no sympathy from me.