SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Here on SI we tend to mostly only see the BS perspective. The occasional WS who stays here is usually earnestly pursuing R and there are some things a WS seeking R just can't say, regardless whether they're true.

What about the marriage that really is bad in terms of sex. Say, a husband who has become a couch potato beer slob, playing video games and drinking in his free time, ignoring his wife, but otherwise is a good provider and an attentive father to his children?

Is the wife in that case really constrained with divorce, or no sex?

What about the other way, a wife who becomes sexless after children, constantly rebuffs her husband's sexual advances, devotes all of her attention to her children.

Is the husband's choice there either divorce, or no sex?

I guess a lot of men in that circumstance nowadays opt for the third rail: online porn and Rosie. Is that itself a species of infidelity?

You can divorce over lack of sex. You can divorce over having a lump on the couch spouse who helps with nothing. You can divorce over having your needs for anything ignored. Yes, if you're unhappy in your marriage and your spouse does not wish to address this problem and work together to improve it, you can divorce. Marriage is important and it's a big deal, but it isn't something to martyr yourself for. It's supposed to be teamwork and if you're the only one on your own team, you should divorce.

Cheating doesn't save a marriage. Cheating is like shooting your spouse in the face so that you can have an extra slice of cake. Marriage isn't something to be saved at all costs or something to be held up and worshipped. It's a deal you make with another person. If the deal is flat-out causing you misery, you can opt out of that deal without setting them on fire on the way out the door.

Let's say you can't bear another day without the sex you desire. You have a decision to make. You can do something so hurtful to your BS that people almost always contemplate suicide over and has a high chance of ending the marriage anyway, or you can leave and end the marriage without destroying your spouse on the way out the door. Bonus if you leave without cheating and have kids...you haven't rendered your spouse incapable of being a decent parent for a year or two.

What if your spouse is a real asshole? Then you leave or accept that you're with a real asshole.

Thing is, you can always leave a marriage.

I do have a more nuanced opinion when you have something like a spouse in a coma for years or a spouse with advanced Alzheimers and you stay married to ensure that they get the best medical care. That is 0.000001% of cheaters. Most cheaters are "Well, we get along fine, but this chick at work is hot and she might fuck me and I deserve this because I only got sex twice last week at home" or "I didn't get to screw around enough before I got married and even though I get plenty of sex at home, I need to experience more for my own sake" or "what he/she doesn't know won't hurt" or "I treat him/her like shit but they don't give up the booty enough, so instead of investing in my partner and treating them with love/respect/romance and improving our relationship, I'll just go fuck other people".

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 8:36 AM, July 24th (Friday)]

When I started reading this - I thought yep, it’s true sometimes the marriage is bad and the bs doesn’t want to look at themselves at all to get better (not that cheating is ever okay or excusable) but then you went straight for the sex.

I have watched many of a ws twist themselves inside out and upside down but their spouse is toxic or abusive in some way. Often it’s not physical, so it’s then a lot more nebulous for the ws to put their finger on it being abuse. It’s also harder for us to know whether it’s just a typical ws rewriting history and justifying their behavior. We tend to assume that it’s the latter and treat them that way until we finally get it.

As for sex, it’s one part of marriage. It can often be fixed through communication. Sometimes that communication just needs to be stronger. A spouse who hears the issues and doesn’t at least try to address them likely is that way about far more than sex. Sex tends to often be more of a barometer of other issues.

I divorced my first husband largely (but not only) because we were grossly not sexually compatible. We had sex pretty regularly before marriage and after marriage It went down to a trickle. I married him knowing he didn’t feel comfortable giving me oral sex. I thought maybe that would change over time but he was sexually satisfying me without that so I didn’t see it as a huge deficit. When the sex stopped then the weight of that went way up. I talked about it with him until I was blue in the face. I found out he had been mastirbating in the shower every morning. When he would not correct the behavior I felt I had no choice but I did this before we had kids or had many assets together. I was very young and just knew I would never be happy in this marriage. There were other issues, and as years passed I saw just how right I was to do that. Sex was just the barometer on some of those ither issues People should not get married believing Their complaints about the other person wil ever change.

I think when you get married you need to be prepared sex will have a lot of different stages and will ebb and flow like any other part of a relationship. Babies are born, we age, etc. the most important thing is that you can talk about it. That you stay open to each other. I don’t think any of the ws are here just because there was bad or little sex. Probably more because they didn’t communicate more honestly about how badly it was effecting them. But most of the time if you make improvements to your relationship and make efforts at connection, the sex will flow. And if you love and care for each ither you will do what you can to learn to be their sex guru.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:06 AM, July 24th (Friday)]

And really, the last year of my marriage before DDay, I was neglected sexually and sex is high on my priority list. What I did was talk with him about it. Asked if it were me. Asked if he was going through something. I heard "depression" and was very compassionate and supportive. It hurt terribly to be rejected for sex. I know how that feels. Had he not been cheating and had it just been true depression, I would not have left him over that because I wanted more sex. Had he gone for much longer taking no steps to address his depression and kept neglecting me in pretty much every possible way, I would have left him eventually. If it had truly been depression and he was working with professionals on that, I would have stayed and continued to take care of myself sexually. Yes, it sucks to be neglected. It doesn't suck as much as being cheated on.

So a marriage without sex automatically equals bad? What about older couples who no longer have sex, but are still sincerely happy? If you're basing your entire marriage on whether or not you're having sex on the regular, then you're focusing on the wrong thing. For women, our libido does change over the course of our life, with kids, age, etc., and can even change over the course of a month. We're not sex dolls, ready to open a hole at the drop of a hat. We should be allowed to be respectful of our bodies. Men can go through ED as they age, and there isn't always a way to fix that. Then there are other issues, such as depression, illness, etc., that can have an affect on both men and women.

Sure, sex is a great part of a relationship. There are many reasons that frequency of sex may come and go. If at the end of the day, no sex is a dealbreaker for somebody, then they should do the adult thing and exit the relationship. It's never an excuse to cheat.

I was neglected sexually by my WH. He was masturbating on the regular (unknown to me) and then couldn't perform with me. You know what I didn't do? Cheat.

I divorced my first husband largely (but not only) because we were grossly not sexually compatible.

Same!

[This message edited by landclark at 9:21 AM, July 24th (Friday)]

I think DevastatedDee gets it. You have the right to D whether you are the BS or WS. If, after full and complete disclosure, and 100% dedication to empathy, remorse, contrition and enough time passing to prove your deeds are the equal of your words..........and the BS is still not willing to have grace and offer real efforts to making the M what both want and need, then the fWS may need to move on. They have that right and responsibility to themselves and the BS, if that is what they need for their own healing.

There's more to love than sex. There's more to sex than love.

Having said that, I can think of only one type of situation in which I might be OK with extra-M sex: a situation in which one partner is totally and irrevocably unavailable for sex - dementia.

Even then I don't think I'd give a blanket OK. I'm 76. I can forgo sex to honor my W, even though she cheated. At 26 or 36 or 46, if my W had been hit with early onset dementia and she didn't know who I was, I think I could be OK with going outside the M for sex. (I'd have a much harder time justifying that at 56 or 66.)

In almost all cases, though, I'm totally against extra-M sex - yes, if you're sexually incompatible, D.

There were other issues, and as years passed I saw just how right I was to do that. Sex was just the barometer on some of those ither issues

What does that say, the "barometer" of other issues when a spouse withholds sex or sexual acts from the BS and then does it with the AP? I'm sorry to reopen this, but, I entirely agree with you, it's a great barometer of a relationship, in fact, that's basically the entire thesis of my argument that "yes for him, no for you" is entirely unacceptable coming out of an A. To which I usually would get "She did it for the kibbles" or "She was embarrassed and didn't want to do it with you" or a million other reasons beyond "barometer of the relationship". Which is it? All because of the kibbles and FOO or a reliable barometer of how you feel about the other person?

Sorry, just needed to get that out there, not because I disagree with you HO, I agree, I just don't see how it can be both a good barometer of a relationship (where I agree) and also inconsequential when a WS goes sexually "full porn star" in an A.

So a marriage without sex automatically equals bad?

Bad marriage? Not necessarily (but, most of the time, I think yes, it probably does automatically equal bad, at least for the high drive spouse). But I do think that it means something is "bad". Might not be the marriage. One partner could be sick, could have ED, could be depressed, could be unhappy with their body, or a million other "bad" things. Something is "wrong" though, IMHO, in the majority of those cases, might not be that "bad" for the marriage, but overall, yes, I think it's bad.

Sex is the only thing that's truly "unique" to marriage. I love other people, I have relationships with other people, I enjoy their company and time with them. I joke with them, I invest with them and pool my money with theirs. In fact, the only thing that I ONLY do with my wife is sex. You could also say "romantic love" is unique to a M, and I'd mostly agree with that, but "romantic love" is something that's actualized with sex, so I kind of think we're saying the same thing. Anything you want outside of sex, you're basically free to pursue while married. Want a volleyball partner? No problem. Want to have long discussions about nuclear physics? No problem. Want to joke with other people and spend time with them laughing? No problem. Want to see what they look like naked on a pool table. MAJOR PROBLEM. It's the "line" that shall not be crossed; yes, I do believe that EA's exist and are a "thing", but I also think that a lot of the fear/hurt/pain from an EA relates to the things not offered the partner plus the very real thought that "if the EA partner was willing, this would be a PA".

The barometer can also speak to the individual people within the marriage. If you have one that is healthy, the ither that is not healthy- whether that would be physical or mental that relationship is going to suffer. Do RIO, you have to stop looking at the idea there was something wrong or missing from you. You made that as your second argument really. The sex life is a product of the relationship yes, but it is also the product of the two individuals as l.

This to me was a non cheating question- what is the recourse if you have a bad sex life? Well, you discuss it, and take into consideration whether it is indicative of other elements of the relationship and whether it weighs enough for divorce.

Bftg- I have to ask this because I feel more this question Doesn’t take in this as a consideration. Think about your own marriage- long term- and from any standpoint I have read that you have mentioned your wife (not often or much on that) - it seems happily. If your sex life became unsatisfying what would be your course of action?

[This message edited by hikingout at 11:49 AM, July 24th (Friday)]

Sex is the only thing that's truly "unique" to marriage.

Really? Just no. Yeah, I love other people, but it's not at all the same as the love I share with my husband.

Although sex is exclusive between us and very important, I don't think it's the only unique thing about marriage, nor is it the most important aspect of marriage.

What happens when someone gets ED or loses interest in sex for some other reason?

Anecdotally, every type of birth control I've tried totally killed my sex drive. So that means our relationship is no longer special or unique? Fuck that noise.

yes, I do believe that EA's exist and are a "thing", but I also think that a lot of the fear/hurt/pain from an EA relates to the things not offered the partner plus the very real thought that "if the EA partner was willing, this would be a PA".

RIO, you clearly don't understand EAs or have empathy for those of us going through them. The fear/hurt/pain comes from realizing your spouse lied to you and shared a deep emotional connection with someone else that they should have reserved for you. You seem to think that EAs are just friendships that have the potential to turn physical.

For me, the pain that it would have turned into a PA is minimal compared to the pain of the knowing that the one person I trusted above all else lied to me over and over and over again.

Sex happens and then it's over. Feelings of love and longing for the AP are long-lasting.

What about the spouse that wants too much sex like my STBX. He used the lack of sex to have his A's even though we were averaging 3x a week. I started to not enjoy sex with my STBX because I always felt hounded for it and it would take forever for him to climax. Who wants to spend 45 minutes having sex when it takes so damn long to the point where I lose interest or am in pain. Maybe I was part of the problem, but now I have no interest in sex since his A's.

Well, you discuss it, and take into consideration whether it is indicative of other elements of the relationship and whether it weighs enough for divorce.

Which sounds reasonable until you think it through and realize that everyone is going to lie about this. Yeah, if my wife would have just said "I'm just not that attracted to you" well, I'd have my answer and know what to do. But that's not what she said, she gave me some mixture of "It's just not that important to me" "That's not who I am", "I have FOO" and a few other things that, well, basically make the discussion a waste of breath. Of course, none of that was true, proven by the affair, but "talk it out" while usually a reasonable suggestion, just doesn't work when one person is in a position where they simply cannot say the thing that, at least in some instances, is the truth, "I'm just not that into/attracted to you".

What happens when someone gets ED or loses interest in sex for some other reason?

If they have ED, or some other medical condition, they aren't having sex with anyone, so, IMHO, that's different.

Losing interest is very different, I do think that speaks directly to the M. My wife "lost interest" with me for years, then had IMMENSE interest with the OM. We can dodge the issue a million ways, but, that's what actually happened. Where did that interest come from? Was it real? IDK, none of us ever will. But losing interest is not at all the same to me as a medical issue preventing sex.

For me, the pain that it would have turned into a PA is minimal compared to the pain of the knowing that the one person I trusted above all else lied to me over and over and over again.

Well, for me, the situation is reversed, the pain from the PA is immense compared to the lies.

Sex happens and then it's over. Feelings of love and longing for the AP are long-lasting.

I agree with you, but it's the "feelings for the sex" that I care about most. The feelings my wife felt for the AP were like the feelings I have for a movie actress playing a character on TV. That's not who they really are, it's a figment of her imagination, she "fell in love" with someone who didn't even exist. I do understand your pain, I just don't share it.

BFTG, I’m in this situation, as you probably know. Yes, my choices are divorce or suck it up. I don’t really see any other viable alternative. 🤷🏻‍♀️

I started to not enjoy sex with my STBX because I always felt hounded for it

This was me in a previous relationship before I met and married my H.

I had been in a long-term relationship with a man that in the beginning, was great. Then as time went on, his sexual "demand" became more of a job for me and I started to resent him. In fact, I started to actually hate him. Of course he was a cheater as well, (even when things were good between us) and that was my door to get the hell out. I left and never looked back.

I had been in a long-term relationship with a man that in the beginning, was great. Then as time went on, his sexual "demand" became more of a job for me and I started to resent him. In fact, I started to actually hate him. Of course he was a cheater as well, (even when things were good between us) and that was my door to get the hell out. I left and never looked back.

I think my W would have said the same before the A. Well, actually, not right before, I'd "given up" at that point and decided I'd just wait for her to initiate sex, I was always up for it, she rarely was, so I decided to stop pursuing her and wait for her to be ready.

Of course, she then, after convincing herself that I was "badgering her" for sex got into an A and had more sex in a day than we had most months, even time she saw the OM. I guess his "badgering" was better than mine.

I would suggest that the reason your wife didn’t come to you saying she was unsatisfied with your sex life is because either she wasn’t or she wasn’t aware of it.

Your wife didn’t have an affair because of foo. Foo might have helped her to be comfortable in the situation but it didn’t define

Why she made the choice.

If I am a deeply unhappy person that blame other for that instead of figuring out why I am unhappy, then when

Something comes along and sparks that dopamine I am going to latch on to it. I think most ws have no idea what makes them happy, they use others and situations to make them

happy. So the ap comes along and sparks that dopamine and suddenly they start bartering for it and trading for it.

Generally whatever they perceive the AP is

Offering is a exaggerated representation of a previously unstated, unnamed need. The focus goes on that and it’s the thing that forms the addiction if there is one. Not all affairs have addictive elements to them. For me it was emotional connection and support. But that need could have been met in my own marriage by being authentic, vulnerable, and sharing differently with my husband. Never mind the fact I was still not being authentic, vulnerable or sharing differently with the AP. It was just easier to project that on a stranger than the man who knows me so well he can tell you what I am going to say or do before I do it.

The perceived greater effort from the ap is yielding a perceived bigger reward. Never mind that the effort he was putting out was to get sex.

But to get back to bftg’s question it was more about when is it understandable that they went out and had sex with someone else? The answer is never, and the recourse I was speaking about was what you do instead of having an affair. I asked him

About his own marriage to take the generalizations out of his question. When you apply it to your own situation this is far less grey.

[This message edited by hikingout at 1:58 PM, July 24th (Friday)]

Bftg- I have to ask this because I feel more this question Doesn’t take in this as a consideration. Think about your own marriage- long term- and from any standpoint I have read that you have mentioned your wife (not often or much on that) - it seems happily. If your sex life became unsatisfying what would be your course of action?

I thought of the question because of a recent thread in JFO. A newly minted BH. He talks about how he realizes his marriage was truly bad leading up to his WW's A. She has told him that it was so awful she was about to divorce him. Having her A, per the WW, was a way of kicking the can down the road for her, in part because she didn't relish the idea of breaking up their family.

There, the BH seems to accept the idea that the marriage was bad, and that he was a big contributor to this. According to the thread, the WW made multiple efforts to get the BH to MC, or IC, or other help, before commencing her A.

As to my own marriage, our sex life has ebbed and flowed along with the rhythms of parenthood: babies, kids, two careers, family losses and sorrows (cancers, etc). There have been times when I've been sexually frustrated, but I've not thought of cheating. They have been temporary. There have been times when I've been sated. Our family unit has always been closely knit and I get my emotional nourishment from the whole shebang. A few Saturdays ago we were all sitting out on the deck enjoying an evening glass of prosecco, a rare (lately) time when all of us were there. Nothing dramatic or "big" took place. Just a peaceful sense of wholeness. It was nice.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 2:13 PM, July 24th (Friday)]

Why would you want to stay in a marriage that really is bad? Wouldn't divorce clearly be a better option at that point?

I do think it is borderline abusive at best for one spouse to entirely deny or only reluctantly participate in sex, and yet expect their partner to be monogamous. It's one thing to decide for yourself, but I don't think it's even remotely acceptable to make that choice for someone else.

But cheating should not be the option here. I would either be very clear with my partner that I still had needs and that I would be pursuing them, assuming that I did want to stay married to someone who could make such a unilateral decision. Then the ball is back in my partner's court to decide if they are okay with that. If not, they can be the one to choose to end things since they made that first decision.

If I wanted a monogamous relationship that still involved sex, I would divorce my spouse. No one wants duty sex or reluctant sex, and no one should be told that sex is off the table completely. A healthy sex life is part of a healthy marriage, except in the case of asexuals and this should be discussed prior to marriage. Sex is a need, not a want, for many of us.

But at NO POINT is cheating the answer. Be open and up front and honest with your spouse! Communicate. Care about what they think and feel and say. And that solves the vast majority of problems right there- when both spouses treat each other that way.

There, the BH seems to accept the idea that the marriage was bad, and that he was a big contributor to this. According to the thread, the WW made multiple efforts to get the BH to MC, or IC, or other help, before commencing her A.

No that still doesn’t make it acceptable. She is basically feeding him this line of this is your fault and he is buying into it.

That’s her getting to rugsweep her culpability.

I talked to my husband about shit I was unhappy about and things didn’t change. Not our sex life per se, but in the end I didn’t draw any boundaries on these things and so I have culpability in that. Do not let that guy choke that down as part of the shit sandwich.

I am still asking the question if you are the person experiencing that what are you going to do? I have a feeling the answer is not betrayal.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:15 PM, July 24th (Friday)]

So a marriage without sex automatically equals bad? What about older couples who no longer have sex, but are still sincerely happy? If you're basing your entire marriage on whether or not you're having sex on the regular, then you're focusing on the wrong thing. For women, our libido does change over the course of our life, with kids, age, etc., and can even change over the course of a month. We're not sex dolls, ready to open a hole at the drop of a hat. We should be allowed to be respectful of our bodies. Men can go through ED as they age, and there isn't always a way to fix that. Then there are other issues, such as depression, illness, etc., that can have an affect on both men and women.

Sure, sex is a great part of a relationship. There are many reasons that frequency of sex may come and go. If at the end of the day, no sex is a dealbreaker for somebody, then they should do the adult thing and exit the relationship. It's never an excuse to cheat.

landclark, I've come to the conclusion (feel free to disagree) that sex just ranks differently in importance for people. It's not even about the waxing and waning- it's that for some people, sex is something nice they do every once in a while. And for others, it's an absolute necessity that starts to affect their emotional and mental health if they can't connect that way. It seems like the two schools simply can't understand each other, which makes sense. The worst is when one of each is married to the other- I suspect that is nearly always a recipe for disaster.

ED has literally nothing to do with having a great sex life though. Amazing sex does not need to involve an erect penis to be satisfying for both partners.

Additionally, sex is a natural mood booster and actually helps with things like depression and anxiety. When people "fake it to make it", it's impressive how often it improves things.

I agree 100% that lack of sex is never a reason to cheat, but I don't agree that people should be content over lack of sex if it's an ongoing problem. At the very least, it needs to be communicated about. If you have a serious libido mismatch, it's really not reasonable to just shrug and expect your partner to deal with it- that won't promote a harmonious marriage. No one is ever, ever required to have sex with their partner; but they aren't free from the consequences of that choice, either.

You could also say "romantic love" is unique to a M, and I'd mostly agree with that, but "romantic love" is something that's actualized with sex, so I kind of think we're saying the same thing.

RIO- not at all. Asexual people experience romantic love and zero sexual desire. Sex is an entirely separate need from love. It's society that ties those things together.

What about the spouse that wants too much sex like my STBX. He used the lack of sex to have his A's even though we were averaging 3x a week. I started to not enjoy sex with my STBX because I always felt hounded for it and it would take forever for him to climax. Who wants to spend 45 minutes having sex when it takes so damn long to the point where I lose interest or am in pain. Maybe I was part of the problem, but now I have no interest in sex since his A's.

You're literally the poster marriage for my comments above about mismatched libidos. Your WH isn't wrong for wanting sex more than 3x a week and for long sessions (if that's how you define 45 min sessions- I would not) and more than you are wrong for not wanting it. The affairs are wrong. But having a very high sex drive is not. I would say your WH could probably use some work on his skills as a sex partner if his idea of sex is boring your or dissatisfying you, but shaming someone for their frequency of desire isn't cool either. You should not be in pain after only 45 minutes of sex, but it sounds like he was much more fixated on his needs rather than yours.

[This message edited by PSTI at 2:25 PM, July 24th (Friday)]