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In November 2019 I implemented the 180, stopped the TT, had a Dday 2, got the written timeline, she has not missed an IC appointment, full transparency, everything I’ve asked for R.

I have also transformed my body and attitude. I’m at my goal weight, built my body and physique like I’ve never been before, I’m taking care of me first. I have worked on my self esteem and have become a much more confident and centered man. I’m also a lot more outgoing in social settings.

I am no longer that pathetic pleaser (yes man) that got screwed over so bad pre Dday and during false R. Even though we are a couple working on R, I’m doing what I want for me first. I don’t always immediately answer calls or texts. The 180 was about changing me, it’s not a short term thing it’s a new way of life. Infidelity didn’t change me for the better, the 180 did.

The problem is she is now so insecure and compliant. She makes a small mistake (burn dinner or something with kids) she panics and apologizes profusely. If I wander off she desperately looks for me.

We were in a group setting last weekend and I was over talking to people, later she said “I thought you would have been with me”. What? Give me some space!!! She has also become very possessive. I was talking to a married neighbor lady in the yard, and she swears this lady is flirting with me. Not only the neighbor but if I joke with a cashier or waitress, I’m flirting. I told W “you are the last person to lecture me on how to protect boundaries, and if you really knew me you would know how much I despise infidelity, don’t go there with me!!”.

My question is this normal for a WS to become very insecure and possessive? I don’t want her to lose herself in R. I’m very laid back and easy going, not controlling at all. I’m not sure I like this much.

[This message edited by Tanner at 7:47 PM, August 4th (Tuesday)]

The 180 is not intended to be a long-term change of life, nor is it intended as a gambit to induce change in a WS. It is intended to enable a BS to create psychological space to clear his/her head, find his/her heart's truth, and follow it.

If you remain that detached from your wife long term, why stay married?

Thanks for the reply, most of the changes I’ve made will be permanent. It really helped get me over the hump. But I don’t want her afraid of making a move

What is she doing to work on herself and fix herself?

And what are you doing together to recover the M?

Tanner, firstly, good for you for making changes in your life, for YOU! That’s great!

To address your question. Yes, my WW was just like yours, once “all the truth” was out. She walked on eggshells for quite some time. Constantly asking me if I’m okay, if I needed anything. The small mistakes she made into huge failures. Absolutely, 100%.

I either never get hit on or are too oblivious to notice if another woman is flirting with me, I certainly don’t, so she doesn’t have that to concern herself with.

She is deathly afraid that I will D her. I did threaten D a couple of times after Dday 1, 2 and maybe 3.....but I haven’t for some time. I know it is one of her biggest fears.

My WW is better than before and after Dday’s. IC has helped her understand that he value is derived from within and not from outside sources, myself included. It must be a very tough thing for our WW’s to go through. I know a little about tough situations too!

Owningitnow she is in weekly IC. As far as working on our M we are taking it a step at a time

Jameson, she is terrified of D. I am still early in the process and that option is still on the table. Have almost a year of reflection I’m not that afraid of it, other than what it would do to our twins.

[This message edited by Tanner at 9:21 PM, August 4th (Tuesday)]

To me, te 180 has two sides- a temporary and a permanent side. The permanent side is one of managed detachment so that you don't have as much pain if the spouse betrays again. It's about finding other things in life that brings us joy aside from a cheating spouse. It is NOT about ignoring, ghosting or penalizing the betrayer for life.

Your betraying wife has seen the changes and feels like she is losing you. You need to tell her that she hasn't but the closeness you once shared has been lost by her betraying. You have to protect your heart and soul now as she no longer can.

Your betraying wife has seen the changes and feels like she is losing you. You need to tell her that she hasn't but the closeness you once shared has been lost by her betraying. You have to protect your heart and soul now as she no longer can.

I think you nailed it. I’m not a jerk and I’m not going anywhere for now but I’m pissed and won’t ever let her do this to me again.

I think a lot of WS really take BS’s for granted, until that safe, comfortable option is suddenly in jeopardy. Mine had no interest in leaving me, never thought she would get caught, and bumbled post-dday about as bad as you can, save for a relapse.

The 180 is for you, and it sounds like you are enjoying the new you, and that is fantastic. Your change is likely similar to your WW’s feelings while in the A and she is terrified of another women wooing you, and knowing it would be hypocritical to feel this way.

I think regular IC for an extended period of time would help her.

Here’s my thought. You may think I’m cold and calculating BUT this works for me.

Just as some backstory we had dday1, false Reconciliation and dday2. Plus his mid life crisis affair led him to demand a D for six months.

Dday2 was eye opening. And I realized I had to change. So I did. I did everything you did Tanner (except I was already at my goal weight lol). I did the hard 180. I mean hard.

It’s 7 years later and I still don’t do his laundry. Lol.

My H is exactly like your wife. He was arrogant during his affair. Until I told him I had no choice but to D him. He was free to be with the OW. Now suddenly he wants to Reconcile. I refuse.

He now apologizes for everything. He constants asks me how I feel and what I need etc. And possibly he’s afraid I will D him. Even 7 years later. And it is possible I would if I ever thought he was inappropriate or crossed a boundary again. If I thought he was being too flirty with women I would have NO problem ending our marriage.

I financially protected myself with a post nup. I have complete financial control (always did as he travelled extensively for work).

I will never be financially exposed again.

So call me cold and calculating. I don’t care. I re-defined our marriage. He’s no longer put first. I don’t give in unless I want to. No means No and I don’t let him manipulate me. Ever again.

Lessons learned.

I lived through the same thing. After her affair she had zero confidence in herself, our marriage, and in me ever forgiving her. . Of course it didn’t help that early on I used every word in the dictionary to describe how stupid she was for her choices.

It grated on me that she could never make a decision about anything. Where do you want to go for dinner? WWTL you pick. Same with a movie, TV show, basically everything. She was convinced that if she burned an egg that it could be the tipping point for me to walk. She wasn’t necessarily wrong. Burning an egg wouldn’t have done it, but it wouldn’t have taken much for me to walk.

The same thing happened with us in her becoming clingy and wanting to be around me 24/7. Of course this is all happening when I would rather play golf with someone I disliked, than go for a walk with her.

I think it is very common. They have just made the stupid things choice in their lives. Like a drunk driver who kills someone, and has a conscience, how could you not think about what you have done and take steps for it not to happen again.

This is one of the reasons I walked also. We had a great partnership before her affair. We didn’t after. It just went along with my final conclusion that our marriage would never be as good as it was.

Has it gotten better or worse over time?

Butforthegrace really said it all with the first reply on this thread.

What is marriage to you?

What would be the ideal marriage?

Does what you have now – the distancing between husband and wife – factor in the ideal marriage?

If this isn’t the ideal marriage what are YOU doing to make it the ideal marriage?

What is marriage to you?

What would be the ideal marriage?

Does what you have now – the distancing between husband and wife – factor in the ideal marriage?

If this isn’t the ideal marriage what are YOU doing to make it the ideal marriage?

First, don’t get me wrong I love my Wife. I’m not mistreating her, I’m just not kissing her ass like I did before. If she would stand and pout I would comfort her and apologize for what I might have done. I would stop everything at work if she called, now if I’m busy i will call her back. If she stands and pouts I ignore it until she can come talk to me like an adult. I have let go of the codependency.

Marriage is living up to the vows we made, I held up my end. She violated those vows about 12 times in a year, once we matched up the timelines I found that she was messaging men on some of the best date nights we had. Taking naked selfies in front of me and sending to me, but also to other men. I’m still not a year from Dday and I’m still pissed.

She burned our M to the ground it’s over, we are in the rebuilding stage. It’s like rebuilding the house I love the house but while under construction it’s not easy to live in.

I will never see her the same way again, I will never completely trust her again. I want to rebuild, but this one has to be better.

ETA: I don’t want her walking on eggshells, afraid that burning dinner will send me to a lawyer.

[This message edited by Tanner at 9:59 AM, August 5th (Wednesday)]

She doesn’t know what to do.

For 28 years she was able to manipulate you. She was in control and she knew it. But now all that is changed. You are no longer susceptible to her manipulation, to her tricks, to her shaming language… None of it.

And she’s floundering because she realizes you have the mental will to walk away if you want to. And that you have made yourself into someone that other women would definitely want to be with.

Both of these things cause her great insecurity. Because unlike you, her stock has been going down. So she’s just scared to death of being alone.

Not sure how she could be coached out of that mindset. It may be the new norm for your marriage.

[This message edited by ramius at 9:57 PM, August 5th (Wednesday)]

ETA: I don’t want her walking on eggshells, afraid that burning dinner will send me to a lawyer.

This is her issue and her work to do. You are not responsible for her self-confidence or lack of it. I'm sure Ramius is right about how she is feeling now with you looking and feeling good, but that is on her to confront in herself and fix. We are all responsible for the way we feel about ourselves.

She clearly has no true sense of self because needing kibbles from random guys is not building or demonstrating true self-esteem. She was getting the most useless form of flattery, so her seeking it shows a desperation, a clear emptiness where a healthy view of herself should have been.

The problem is that when one person starts learning and growing, the other needs to get onboard or the couple will no longer be in sync with one bringing the other down. I hope she understands this and works hard. Her cheating dug her self-esteem even lower, so now she's got even more work to do. But it also stripped away the pretense--the story she told herself--that she was fine. Now she sees she is not. It hurts her more and she's suffering, but you can't fix what you won't even admit is going on inside. So this is where she needs to be, but you will just have to watch and see if she steps up to grow in the ways that she needs to. It's totally on her.

This is her issue and her work to do.

This is spot on- When I was failing at R one of my biggest hurdles was approaching the M the same way. For me that meant a crushing jealousy if she pursued any interests that didn’t involve me, because that led to fear that I was “no longer perfect.” I submit that she had this fear before, and that it’s a further manifestation of a narrowly constrained understanding of what humans do as “hyper-social animals”- Form connections.

I’m not going to say who, but there’s a person who accurately points out that we have been marketed a nuclear family where we place multiple competing roles on a single partner, roles that used to be spread out across integrated communities. I blamed my BW for NOT wanting to take them all on, and so when it appeared she could find fulfilling (and legitimately safe) connections, I got panicky.

That fear has been there, and she’s continuing to attribute your changes to her actions, and it’s further scaring the shit out of her. I believe the frequent discussions on outcome focus would be good for her to hear, to help her understand that she is alongside your changing for the better- If she can’t take comfort in that at the end of the day, then is she getting better?

Ws here.

If she is in IC, this is something you could at least point out to her to try and address some of it in her sessions.

What was she like Pre-A? Was she a people pleaser, did she have a lot of anxiety? Perfectionism?

I remember being about where you guys are in the timeline. I don’t think this is abnormal per se, but it’s shame that you are describing. I think a lot of us go through the hand wrenching and the being caught up in our shame spiral. Healing from that for me was slow. It took some time for me to see that I was still being selfish by being that way. That I was still too caught up with my own anguish and not enough in my husbands. When I started accepting that I brought it on myself and that my husbands hurt was worse, it changed my focus.

Trying to make amends is part of the healing process for us but amends is action, it’s bringing it up, its being persistent, and almost impervious to rejection. It also takes a lot of vulnerability, And humility. We think we are showing it with our shame. But it’s fear.

She is afraid to lose you now. That year point for me was my eyes were wide open at what I had risked and I wanted to take it back because I was no longer willing to risk it. But that was too late, I already had.

It’s not instinctual to do the things that heal us because they feel like something to avoid. Avoiding bringing it up, being vulnerable. Instead we tend to want to talk you out of your feelings or try and hope we can get through a good day.

My self respect started to return when I would be braver, risk more. Be vulnerable and bring up the affair. To ask questions to be accountable. But the hand wrenching had to go in order to do that. The hand wrenching felt safer because I felt he could see how sorry I was. I think this is normal but agree with the others this is her issue to work through. She has to learn to love herself, and it’s an uphill climb from where she is right now.

I think that if you stay you will have to take risks too eventually. I don’t mean be codependent, but that vulnerability has to return for you too. That time is not now. The squirming that she is doing is her discomfort. Discomfort is good. We don’t change when we are comfortable, so let her work through that.

What was she like Pre-A? Was she a people pleaser, did she have a lot of anxiety? Perfectionism?

Yes, yes, and yes. Her parents were 15 and 16 when she was born. They blamed her for ruining their life. They had 3 more kids and my wife raised them basically stating at the age of 5. She was left home all day with them. She did not have a childhood and was ripped from home to home just ahead of the landlord.

She is/was one of the kindest most giving people, Always put everyone else’s needs ahead of hers.

She has not missed one IC appointment since starting in November. They are really drilling down into this.

Problem with the 180 is it can be addicting, and eventually unhelpful. I did the 180 hard. Problem is, I began to really like the person I was becoming as I distanced myself from WW. I could tell my new attitude was hurting my WW, which made me like it more. I also had more confidence, this more attention from other women, and I was getting close to probably having a RA.

It works to a point. But eventually you have to just be real. 180 is a short term tool.

Fender guy. I disagree. For me the 180 was necessary b/c it forced me to stop being a doormat.

I stopped putting every one else first.

It gave me the free time to do things for me - and I realized I didn’t have to be mean about it. I just needed to be firm about it.

And it’s worked out well since I stopped doing everyone’s laundry but my own. Lol