SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Since post-nups are iffy at best in court, AND she has said she will do anything and sign anything you ask of her, I suggest that you divorce her, tell her to think of it as a demotion from wife to girlfriend, and then she can work on winning you back. And if she does, and you want to marry her, go for it! But have her sign a PRE-nup

Even if you don't want to do this, you could throw it out there and see what it says. It could tell you more about where her head is at if she would agree to that or not. I'd be wary of a post nup though and talk to a lawyer before you make any decisions about it.

I also picked up on what Sanibel and Thumos mentioned when I read it. It doesn't sound good. It's too early to tell if this is genuine or not. She's not throwing up any immediate deal breakers.

What I will add since it's not been posted yet - count how many I's and me's there are in her letter. Count how many you's there are. Typically when we see a good letter, it has A LOT more you's in it than hers does. It has more of an acknowledgement of you and what you're going through. Remorse is more about her focus being on you and yet her focus is still firmly held on herself. Has she ever genuinely apologized and acknowledged the pain she has put you through? Or is it all been about what she can do to stop you from D'ing her?

R is a marathon and yours hasn't even begun. There's no shame in wanting R or trying R. But I do hope you keep your eyes firmly wide open because your WW has a poor history when it comes to criticism and accepting accountability. The lack of her focus on you could be because on some level she doesn't see your pain or acknowledge it. When IC/MC starts, she may be blindsided and lash out when the focus shifts from her to you and your pain. That doesn't mean you should accept it or stand for it. Simply be aware of it, hear it, and always keep D as a possibility on the table if she is not able or willing to give you what you need.

Sometimes we here on the site make it impossible for a WW spouse say or do the right thing when attempting to try to convince a BS to reconcile. That's not an attack on anyone it's just unfortunately a reality when we are the victims of such a catastrophic emotional event. And it's completely understandable.

I think thirtyyearsmore is on point. Not saying that your WW didn't bring all this dissection, scrutinizing, and often disbelief of her words, but that's exactly what infidelity does....destroys trust and casts doubt. It will be up to you to decipher what you believe is the truth.

My opinion?

--She's scared half to death...most of all of losing you

--She's afraid to state anything bold in the fear that it may be the wrong thing to say/do

--She is REALLY starting to SEE and grasp the destruction of her poor choices

--She is exiting survival mode, and entering helping others(you and the children) mode

--She is finding contrition

Just remember---she was an active wayward a short time ago. It takes time to rewire all that fucked-up thinking. Do you honestly think that she had an inkling of how broken she really is a mere few months ago? She's got YEARS of self-introspection ahead of her. The two of you are in unchartered waters. We've been there, but on our own journeys. Yours will be different because it is yours alone.

I have a post nup. It is legal. If you Reconcile then the post nup never comes into play.

If not you are financially protected.

I would not worry about the number of "I & me" versus "you" in the letter. When someone is falling on their sword there is going to be a lot of self blame and sharing of their feelings before the "how can I help AH" comes to the surface.

I am always amused a bit when WW say I will always check in with you and let you know where I am going and take photos, you can see my phone...

makes no sense. in one breath you say we will not get back

together and we can recover our marriage.

is your goal to be separated from your WW for six months?

Sorry, I meant that Im not trusting my ability to reconcile our marriage. just a typo.

recovery cannot happen while you are apart for that much

time.

where is your WW living now?

she is with her mom and stepfather, about 45 minutes away from where we live.

how does your mind handle not being able to verify what

your WW is doing being that you are separated?

this does nothing to repair the broken trust.

how is WW supporting herself now?

first. My WW is working and can support herself, in our case we are fortunate that money was never an issue.the other questions are harder. I i was to answer that last week or the day you posted this I would have said that the separation was the best thing I had don since all this happened. but I realize now that it is all part of the roller-coaster I've been riding. The last 2 days I've felt sad and gloomy.I guess that's why I'm here today typing this out. I'm so sorry that I'm using this thread to vent.

the separation gave me the opportunity to clear my mind and to not cling on the A and what to do next. At some point I thought I reached a point where the A itself didn't bother me. I was sort of neutral and thinking radically I even questioned some of the things i read here like anniversaries and how that didn't affect me for example, October is where her A became sexual . Boy was I wrong. yesterday I just didn't feel like talking to anyone, I was acting rude to people who have nothing to do with this and wanted to just disappear.

I know this is just a temporary stage and I have to focus on the long road ahead. I forgot to mention during my last update that I did ask her directly if she had other affairs, I know many here have suggested this. She said she didn't but she did go out with a group of men and women for a drinks, and during this events was approached by some guys at the bar who offered her drinks and flirted with her. She also admitted that she liked the attention but never had any emotional nor sexual relationship with any of them.

IMO it's not reasonable to expect that someday the A will not bother you ever again.

Depending on how R goes, it's more reasonable to look forward to someday (i.e., years) triggering less often, with less impact on you, and with you being better able to manage it over all.

AH,

I'm so sorry that I'm using this thread to vent

Vent away!

the separation gave me the opportunity to clear my mind and to not cling on the A and what to do next. At some point I thought I reached a point where the A itself didn't bother me

.

Whether you choose to D or R please remember that your WW's A will always be a part of your life.

I was sort of neutral and thinking radically I even questioned some of the things i read here like anniversaries and how that didn't affect me for example, October is where her A became sexual . Boy was I wrong

While there seems to be a cheaters handbook all cheaters follows to some degree there is no one way to handle being betrayed. Each individual is different and experience this in different ways. It is best to find what works for you today but realize what works today may not work tomorrow.

yesterday I just didn't feel like talking to anyone

You are a guy and as such you may just need time by yourself just be careful not to get too deep into your own mind. Sometimes that can drive a person crazy.

I know this is just a temporary stage

You are correct. This stage won't last forever.

I have to focus on the long road ahead

.

Neither of us are teenagers who can flit from moment to moment. Having a plan is good but being able to modify that plan as circumstances dictate is even better.

she did go out with a group of men and women for a drinks, and during this events was approached by some guys at the bar who offered her drinks and flirted with her. She also admitted that she liked the attention but never had any emotional nor sexual relationship with any of them

On some level she did have a relationship with these men even for that one moment.

For her to act this way as a married woman describes her poor boundaries.

It is possible that this instance was the gateway into her affair.

She said she didn't but she did go out with a group of men and women for a drinks, and during this events was approached by some guys at the bar who offered her drinks and flirted with her

You may want to consider asking more specific questions about the nights out in order to confirm that she's not minimizing her behavior (withholding details or attempting to control the info exchange) as long as there was no intercourse.

Plus the 'flirting' may have been her way of testing the water and looking for the right (successful & discreet) affair partner.

For example:

- was there ever one man in particular that she flirted with; and did he sit next to her each time?

- did another man ever text or verbally inform her that he was looking forward to seeing her at the group night out? (or she him)

- did she dance (did they bump & grind or was he allowed to hold her close and press himself against her suggestively during a slow dance)?

- did any OM kiss her;

- did she hold any OM's hand or allow him to put his arm around her?

- did she ever meet a flirt partner alone for coffee, lunch, or social/business event?

I did ask her directly if she had other affairs, I know many here have suggested this. She said she didn't but she did go out with a group of men and women for a drinks, and during this events was approached by some guys at the bar who offered her drinks and flirted with her. She also admitted that she liked the attention but never had any emotional nor sexual relationship with any of them

As has been pointed out several times, you’re relying on the word of a proven liar, a truly duplicitous master liar in fact. She is likely still minimizing to “protect” your feelings.

A polygraph now would help confirm if she’s telling the truth on this point. One of the questions should be “did you have any emotional or sexual contact of any kind whatsoever with another man besides AP during the entire course of our dating, engagement and marriage?”

For example as another poster pointed out, this statement by her isn’t reassuring. She could have had all kinds of inappropriate contact that didn’t amount to a “relationship” as she defines it.

I know this is just a temporary stage and I have to focus on the long road ahead. I forgot to mention during my last update that I did ask her directly if she had other affairs, I know many here have suggested this. She said she didn't but she did go out with a group of men and women for a drinks, and during this events was approached by some guys at the bar who offered her drinks and flirted with her. She also admitted that she liked the attention but never had any emotional nor sexual relationship with any of them.

A can tell you from experience that your WW is minimizing. Call her bluff, and tell her you know she is lying to you did some digging and that you have proof she did something on one of those outings. Act like you actually have irrefutable truth, then just walk away and tell her until she tells you everything R is off the table. Then ghost her for a few days.

She will freak the hell out, delay for a couple days until she thinks of a strategy to get herself out of the hole she's in, and then she'll call you and spill more of her guts. She will ask you what you have heard or who you have been talking to. Tell her it's none of her business how you know, but that you know. All of this is a ruse of course, but cops use this technique to get perps to confess to crimes. You can do the same with her. Sadly, this really is a game: a combination of chess and poker.

Vent away, AH. That is what this forum is for, and more importantly you never know who your struggle is going to help. The next BS who comes along after discovering a 2yr affair will be pointed to your threads, and may find that one nugget of advice that makes all the difference.

As far as the early GNOs - Of course you will get minimizing if there is anything there. Before going with an all-out bluff, I'd want to probe to see what level of inappropriate behavior your WW might admit. Women in bars get hit on and offered free drinks all the time.* Did she ever accept? As mentioned, was there dancing or other physical contact? The sorts of things she knows would be unacceptable to you, but aren't too far over the line. If there is anything more, you may get a clue from her responses to these smaller questions. They all lie and minimize, but that is much harder to pull off once our eyes have been opened.

* - after my Dad died, my Mom was isolated for a long time. We encouraged her to get out and about with her friends, many of whom were also widowed around the same time. These late 70s women were surprised to find the free drink offers were still plentiful.

AHguy, I'm not suggesting that you blindly accept what your WW tells you. In fact, quite the opposite. However, I'm going to disagree with some of the last comments regarding a response to her flirting at the bar. If you want more information, you can ask her to elaborate and if you don't trust her response or she gives you a garbage response, you can push further, there are many options. I don't ever recommend lying and saying you have proof of something that you don't can backfire pretty fast.

Regardless, I'm sorry to hear you are struggling. You never know when something will hit you and remind you of the A and knock you back a bit. It happens to most of us and you shouldn't beat yourself up over it. I hope you are still doing things for yourself that you enjoy and you want to do. Things are still very new.

In regards to the separation, I don't think you made a mistake. You've given yourself some space to think. You've told us what you've been doing and thinking. Has your WW been showing you any positive steps? What actions has she taken to put you first?

October is where her A became sexual

The problem here is you are accepting anything she says as truth. The only things you actually know are the events and facts that were shared with you by the other betrayed spouse.

Why would she lie about the month her cheating went sexual? Who knows? Maybe she doesn't want you to know it went sexual day 1. Or whatever reason she thinks helps her case.

Remember, in her mind she has managed to twist all kinds of crazy stuff to make excuses for her behavior.

The point is, as far as I can tell, your wife does not know how to tell the truth. And by the time she figures out that maybe lying is worse than the truth, you won't/shouldn't believe anything she tells you.

The big difficulty with lying cheaters is they will tell you 99 lies in a row, then when they finally get to 100 and tell you the truth, they are unhappy and cannot understand why you don't believe them!

I forgot to mention during my last update that I did ask her directly if she had other affairs, I know many here have suggested this. She said she didn't but she did go out with a group of men and women for a drinks, and during this events was approached by some guys at the bar who offered her drinks and flirted with her. She also admitted that she liked the attention but never had any emotional nor sexual relationship with any of them.

You gotta know she is lying.

Even if she isn't outright falsely claiming that she did not have any other fully secual relationship before Mr. Moneybags, she is most likely creating a technical definition that allows her to leave out events and/or minimize offensive details.

Examples:

- Some sleazebag grabbed my ass or tits and it was hilarious and I didn't stop him - that's not sexual because sexual only involves penises or vaginas!

- I kissed this guy but there was no tongue = Not cheating!

- Sexy-talk isn't cheating!

- Pre-planned meeting up with some dude(s) and getting cozy with him/them isn;t cheating, and it isn't dating because other women were there!

- Rubbing and dry-humping is not cheating!

Etc.

AHguy, you have to stop believing that any words out of her mouth are the "truth". She will manipulate it. If you understand this, the gutpunches won't hurt quite as much.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 3:05 PM, October 21st (Wednesday)]

One of the realities about separation is the loneliness. Even someone as busy as you has to go home to and empty house, fix dinner, eat, do the dishes and … then what? There is so much alone time. And the weekends are the worst. You go to a restaurant alone or a movie, and you feel like a 5th wheel. There is a human need for company.

And there is the great trap. Who do you turn to? The betrayer? That's the easy way. Let's go see a show. Let's go out to eat. And you know she will jump at the chance.

And so this must be avoided. On my other posts somewhere I call it the tar baby effect. Once you start, it gets harder and harder to extricate. And pretty soon you find that you are back in the M without resolution.

Be aware of this, but seek out company elsewhere until you are ready to engage the betrayer. I do not mean dating. There are lost of things for people to do out there, even in the days of covid.

And there is nothing wrong with being alone with your thoughts at times. I'm sure you get it.

AHGuy,

Vent away. That's what this place is for. It's a safe spot for you to vent. Ask for advice, just say what you think. While we may throw bricks & bats from time to time, it's literally only because we don't want you to make OUR (collective!) mistakes...and we ALL made mistakes. Most of them stupid...but their ours. Westway is right. I would use his advice and see what happens.

A can tell you from experience that your WW is minimizing. Call her bluff, and tell her you know she is lying to you did some digging and that you have proof she did something on one of those outings. Act like you actually have irrefutable truth, then just walk away and tell her until she tells you everything R is off the table. Then ghost her for a few days.

She will freak the hell out, delay for a couple days until she thinks of a strategy to get herself out of the hole she's in, and then she'll call you and spill more of her guts. She will ask you what you have heard or who you have been talking to. Tell her it's none of her business how you know, but that you know. All of this is a ruse of course, but cops use this technique to get perps to confess to crimes. You can do the same with her. Sadly, this really is a game: a combination of chess and poker.

What i would advise for people with good impulse control is that you should go 1 week without contact every time your emotions build up above 7/10

Healing solo is alot faster than the see saw of trying to have a bad partner participate in your healing

After a few weeks of just handling your emotions solo you might find that the poly etc isnt relevant because you just want to move on .

Full disclosure - i have no experience of being cheated upon by someone I loved or someone who loved me .never cheated either . However i do know what its like to try and cling to a marriage because you just dont know what else to do . From my experience i dont think your wife loves you , but I could be Projecting very heavily here

[This message edited by siracha at 8:50 AM, October 22nd (Thursday)]

Sriracha,

i have no experience of being cheated upon by someone I loved or someone who loved me .never cheated either . However i do know what its like to try and cling to a marriage because you just dont know what else to do . From my experience i dont think your wife loves you , but I could be Projecting very heavily here

so you believe that she doesn't love me but she is just clinging to our marriage, right?

can you explain more why you believe that?

can you explain why she wouldn't just leave if she doesn't love me, knowing that financially she will be more than fine, there is nothing to hide because everyone knows about her A and I mean everyone family, friends kids coworkers, even our neighbors know.

you know i ask her this because that's what bothers me the most.she insists that she's always loved me and never thought about leaving and that she was just fucked up in her head berrying her self and her own values before betraying me. How is this possible? maybe I should ask former wayward spouses if they can relate to this.

I am sorry if i am answering the wrong question but id prefer not to personalize all this to her ; here is why i stayed in my marriage for longer than i should have even though it was a violent relationship ( on both sides )

1. Because i thought divorce was for losers

2. Because i was embarrassed and in some sick way i really thought he might just die and leave my life and then i could be a widow . I really wanted to be a widow

3. I was depressed

4. Because people ( who i wasnt honest with) people i depended on kept telling me how great he was and how things might change in the future

5. I just wanted to win

6. I was also very young ( she is so chronically immature its essentially the same thing )

Please again forgive me if this is too blunt - she really loves that house and wants to stay in it . You might be a good accessory specially since you keep it so clean. In your posts i have yet to see any evidence of her love for you but then i am assuming you would have told us something to reveal that part of her by now . Do you think she loves you ? And why ?

.

[This message edited by siracha at 10:44 AM, October 22nd (Thursday)]

Yes i sincerely believe she does not love you , but again I dont know her so factor that in . My opinion is based on

1. Length of her affair

2. Humiliation she accepted towards you

3. Her response when her personal trainer was inappropriate with her . She wentto the man she loved and trusted . That man was not her husband of more than 20 years

[This message edited by siracha at 10:43 AM, October 22nd (Thursday)]

Sriracha,

She seems to be going through a whole lot to try and hang on to someone she doesn't love. From AHguys's description she's an attractive woman, so she wouldn't have trouble finding another man.

In my experience people only stick through the rough stuff for something, or someone they want, otherwise they just quit and give up.

I don't think it's a question of if she loves AHguy, it's a question of if she is capable of being in a real, committed, faithful relationship with him (or anyone).