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I dunno, guys. I think the six-month separation will likely be okay. It's therapeutic if both parties are adhering to the ground rules and if there are regular meetings to discuss progress. Sometimes it's good to have a cooling off period and an opportunity to work on your own stuff for awhile without distraction.

I really have tried to follow your story but sometimes there are just to many post so if I am repeating something or missed something I am sorry.

I read her letter and it still sounds like soft manipulation and her saying me me me. You already know she feels broken. Where is the part about giving you all the space you need even if it takes years and you never get back together to allow you the time to heal. What is she really doing for you to make your life more comfortable while you suffer the pain of your wife betraying you in such a horrible way.

I still stick to what I think I said the last time I posted. I would follow through with the divorce. I would tell her in order to heal from this and possibly start over you need a clean slate. I wouldn't guarantee reconciliation or even trying at this point. I understand you want to keep it fair. There is no reason you cant do that.

I could be wrong but there should be more about your needs than hers at this point in time. Your the victim not her. She should be working double time and then doing extra on the side to make your life easier not laying her failures at your feet.

When things on the financial side started to fail and you needed more money to feed her and your children did you work less and complain. I seriously doubt you did that. If she really wants a chance she should step it up.

I think when I hear people say that they are broken its a copout. I wouldn't put my future her hands as long as she wont hold herself accountable.

I know I am jaded and maybe some of this is projection and for that I am sorry. I just hate seeing good people being walked on.

C

Nice email from your WW. Full of promises and nice words.

She mentions that you are looking for actions as well as nice words.

Perhaps you should give her a little bit of time to see if she can turn those words into actions.

The comment about not knowing what to do is somewhat ridiculous. I heard similar as well. I didn't give her any information on how to have an affair and she seemed to be able to perform that without my input, but when it comes to saving a marriage, all of a sudden she needed my input? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I would have the above conversation with her, let her know that she is responsible for her affair, and for her actions and behaviors after her affair as well.

I would caution not to wait too long, but give her some rope to see if she will hang herself, or weave the rope into a safety net for the relationship.

Or maybe you are just done. Your choice.

I don't know....sounds a lot like wedding vows, we know where that ended up.

P.S. Thank the OBS again, without her you wouldn't be here....

Not one bit of that truly addressed her "why" beyond some generic "I am selfish" that she read in a book somewhere.

She is desperate. Desperate people will say anything to save themselves. She says so herself.

People are their truest self when they think nobody is watching. When she thought nobody was watching, who was she? That's who she really is.

Now, everybody is watching...do you think this is her true self? I don't.

OP, it is your life and your call...but that woman is a liar and a cheater who hurt you on purpose and disposed of you like a kleenex when it was convenient for her as she was planning to upgrade to a new man. She saw you as disposable trash...

Now, she wants her man back because the upgrade didn't work out.

It is really that simple. Her emotional smokescreen tries to hide that reality but it is clear.

Good luck to you.

AH, I read this quote a little differently than Chamomile Tea

All I can say is that I’m so broken inside, and broken people left unintended will destroy themselves and everyone around them.

I don’t think she meant “unintended”, but rather “unattended” because the latter makes much more sense to me. It also gives me some concern because it has a whiff of blame shifting in it. In other words, you left her unattended so her brokenness lead her to have an affair. If only you hadn’t left her unattended...

She’s partly right though, her brokenness allowed the A to occur. So, she must fix that and convince you she has fixed it so the next time she’s left unattended she doesn’t start boning whoever gives her attention.

This is not news, just reiterating something you’ve heard many times before. It bears repeating because it is a little concerning that she’s still drawing from that “well” after all this time.

It seems she's talking about herself today, her own bad habits/instincts, and her need for support and not about what she did previously.

I take it more as her asking for help so she doesn't screw up again.

My attitude is the cheater had enough smarts and creativity to have an affair.

They cannot be that clueless about how to make amends.

Google it!

Saying I don’t know what to do is really telling that the cheater doesn’t want to do anything.

She is only worried about herself. She admits it - if she loses you blah blah blah. She absolutely doesn't understand the gravity of what she's done. My answer to her fear of losing you is "you already did. It's done. It's not a fear, it's done." What she does next is up to her. She can continue to wallow in her misery that she created and be all woe is me or she can stfu and deal with the mess she made and the mess she's found in herself. You can't help her with any of it she is either going to do it or not and that's information you need to know whether to d or r. Even if she does it all, you are still allowed to move forward with d because like I said, she left you all long ago. She just decided she doesn't like her choice now but that doesn't mean she didn't make that choice. She did.

She found very creative ways to stay in a long term affair and now she doesn't know what to do? That is hard to believe and definitely warrants an eye roll.

Stay separated because what you need is time. Time to see what she does, time to see how you feel and time to heal yourself completely separate from her.

[This message edited by clouds777 at 12:33 PM, October 16th (Friday)]

AH,

Sometimes we here on the site make it impossible for a WW spouse say or do the right thing when attempting to try to convince a BS to reconcile. That's not an attack on anyone it's just unfortunately a reality when we are the victims of such a catastrophic emotional event. And it's completely understandable.

With that said, no matter what she has done and how out of character her actions have been you still know her better than any of us. And it's that knowledge that gives you an edge when reading her letter and judging her sincerity. The difficulty is separating your residual feeling for her and being honest with yourself. I think that is the biggest benefit to being physically separated. If you are really considering R then might I suggest a weekly meeting while staying separated. Set a time limit. Maybe set a specific topic to discuss concerning the affair or your marriage. Set some ground rules. I'm sure there are many here that are more qualified to expound on this if they want. And maybe the group as a whole will expand on this idea if you find it a viable option.

I will say this if you go that route. Be brutally honest and warn her you will be honest. My wife and I did this after she moved back home but remained separated in home. We even kept written notebooks. I'll be the first to say I was borderline emotional abusive but she took it in stride and worked hard to regain my trust. And she had a clear understanding of my pain and I could guage her acts in comparison to her words during our meetings.

My grandmother gave me the best advice.."Someone is going to be mad or hurt no matter what you decide. You might as well decide what is best for you."

AHguy, I read the email. I think it's a waste. This is only my opinion. Your WW has been telling you for months she will "do anything to save the M". Her email is more of the same. She doesn't say fuck all about what she HAS DONE in the months between, other than do therapy and ditch the enablers of her A. What is she doing to change herself? Is she pursuing new things that are going to make her whole and make her a safe partner? How is she growing?

Until she does that, everything is just words.

I didn't see her letter as manipulative. At least she seems to be moving out of that phase of her attempts to get back with you. But like the others have said, she is still looking for you to lead her by the hand. Instead of taking the bull by the horns, doing her own research and coming up with her own plan on how to become a safe partner to you, she is still putting the burden of her rehabilitation on you. That's not right, and you need to tell her that.

The others are correct: she had the presence of mind and creativity to come up with elaborate plans on how to deceive you and keep you in the dark while setting up trysts to go be with her OM, she should therefore have some ability to plan on how to pull her head out of her own ass.

What we know from your story is that your wife is a habitual liar and very manipulative . At her age she isnt about to change either . However if you ever want to hear a whole load of pointless navel gazing and prime grade bullshit she is def your man and will write you a sonnet on the spot

That being said if you want to give your marriage a try you have to give her something to work with so what exactly can she do within the limitations of her natural personality that would make the relationship “enough” for you to not move on

[This message edited by siracha at 3:33 PM, October 16th (Friday)]

I’m going to cut her some slack that she doesn’t know how to express herself in writing very well. I’m also going to say she sounds increasingly somewhere between regretful and remorseful.

Her style and tone have changed from the first thing you shared with us. It appears she is reflecting some things that have come up in therapy (perhaps - hard to say). I don’t think that’s a bad thing. But words are not actions.

I don’t think she meant “unintended”, but rather “unattended” because the latter makes much more sense to me. It also gives me some concern because it has a whiff of blame shifting in it.

I agree with this assessment and this statement by her really stood out to me. I find it troubling. It almost as if she is saying she’ll do anything to fix this (although she can’t identify what she’ll do) but if you let your guard down and leave her unattended she’ll go right back to wayward ways and cheat on you again.

I also found troubling her inclusion of the idea that she won’t recover if you divorce. That’s putting a mighty burden on you that you don’t deserve.

I refrained from commenting all day on this. You know her better than we do (although you didn’t know a deeply buried part of her personality she kept hidden from you for 6 years).

you’ll have to decide if this woman is really worth it.

I’m sorry to sound callous, but in my own experience I view my WW as very “meh” now and she didn’t sneak around on me for years like yours did. I view my wife in a sea of other women and don’t find anything remarkable about her. That doesn’t mean I find her valueless, just not special the way I did before.

She’s the woman I’ve been married to for 25 years and the mother of my children. I enjoy her company. But I can’t think of a lot that marks her apart from many other women I already know.

That’s clarifying. But I didn’t have this feeling right away. I started dawning on me over the four years since DDAY - but I think I had inklings of this almost immediately after DDAY.

I wonder if you already do too.

How do you see your wife? Is she really all that special? Maybe she still is for you.

This should factor into your decision because the amount of pain and heartache you’ve already been through is only a fraction of what you are signing up for to R with her.

Is she worth it?

Pretty soon you will be empty nesters and it will be just you and her staring across the kitchen table at each other.

I feel she is not being manipulative but is unsure for a way ahead do not to stuff it up, hence asking for patience as well as guidance.

One day at a time

AH

This is the response I would send.

WW

You are welcome for the opportunity to show your desire to earn my trust and your desire to rebuild our relationship. BUT, you need to know that there is no relationship to rebuild. You exploded it and my heart into dust, and the fragments are so small that I don't know if I will ever have a heart that can trust and love anyone again. Let alone you. As for the relationship dust there is nothing to rebuild. IF , I can bring my self to build anything with you it would have to be a new relationship. You saying you are broken inside and broken people left unattended will destroy themselves and everyone around them, this is a manipulation. This is not good material to use to build a new relationship with. I'm not hesitant or confused about trusting you. I DON'T. I don't know if I want to either.

What would you do?

Anything?

How can you give me back the specialness that we had that we were each others one and only? What can you do about that? You CAN DO NOTHING! You could give me a a hall pass so I can take that gift from you, but you can never return the gift you stole from me.

Yes! You are selfish. You keep looking at the disaster you created that you may never recover from. What about ME? How about deep soul searching about ME?

You want me to give more. I'm standing here with empty hands were the gift you stole was and I didn't even know it for two years. The way I showed you love was with the words of my hands and you didn't count it of value.

Yes I deserve love and respect but I don't see how you can give the "ALL" of it that I deserve. You have shredded the pathway to do that.

I too want to be happy again.

Your pledge to be an open book to me is of low value because you made that pledge to me 28 years ago and then shamed me for 2 years.You say you are weak and that now you will be truthful. Didn't you give me that pledge when we were married? You offer me access to all your devices and inform me of all your activities, what kind of ulcers do you think I can grow being a police man of you? You talk about it not being an easy task. What kind of task would say it is seeing "in your mind" your wife having sex with another man? No I don't think you get to say what isn't easy.

You say you are continuing individual therapy, that is good. You invited me. I'm not sure if I want to invest in you that way yet. Yes I want you to fix your self as you have meant so much for so long to me, but I don't want to give you false hope that reconciling is a given. I have been patient with you. Who's version of an acceptable partner are you referring to?

Eliminate triggers? How do you propose to eliminate the trigger of ever being intimate with you again. Yes that is going to be a huge trigger.

Legal and financial leverage is nice but that won't make me feel safe. It won't repay what you stole from me.

Yes you can trust me. I have been faithful all my life to you. I have done all I could to not hurt you. I know I didn't show you love how you wanted me to but I was still showing love. I am learning how to show love other ways but I don't know if it will be for you or someone else.

Yes you are offering me what you have, thank you. I just don't know if I can get over what you stole and through away. I don't know if you/we can fix this. I don't know. Part of me still loves you, but part of me can't stand the pain you caused me. The hole you will never be able to fill form what you stole is a heavy weight. I'm still trying to figure out if I can go on with you knowing you can never make it up to me. So you want me to hold your hand and help you with this, well I'm using both my hands to keep from drowning. Yes the time is going by fast, but I'm still treading water trying not to drown while this weight is around my neck.

WW this is what I am struggling with.

AH I support you.

AH

Sorry for the laughing face. I hate typing in on this phone.

There is nothing wrong with the email. It is about what can be expected at this stage of the turmoil. Predictably, she is love bombing. At least for once she didn’t bring Jesus into it.

It’s not a question of you telling her what she needs to do. It’s a question of what you are prepared to accept. You will get there. Keep doing what you are doing.

AH

I still think she is making this out to be about losing the kids just as much about losing you. I could see this to be the case if you had younger kids but you don't. Your children are older and I just keep wondering if she would feel the same way if she realized that losing you doesn't mean she will lose her children.

Since post-nups are iffy at best in court, AND she has said she will do anything and sign anything you ask of her, I suggest that you divorce her, tell her to think of it as a demotion from wife to girlfriend, and then she can work on winning you back. And if she does, and you want to marry her, go for it! But have her sign a PRE-nup