SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I have experienced childhood sexual abuse, physical abuse, emotional abuse and infidelity abuse. While I cannot compare one to the other they are all bad and come with life altering changes. What is interesting is that the I have blocked out a lot of my childhood sexual abuse but it has imprinted itself on me in ways I cannot function during sex. The physical abuse was horrific in the moment. The thought that he was going to kill me any second was like watching myself being murdered. The infidelity scarred me in a way that I no longer want to trust another person or even entertain a relationship with another person. I thought my STBX knew how fragile I was from my past abuse. The fact that he knowingly inflicted deep pain onto me is something I will never forget. He was the last person I would trust in that way besides my mom or my kids.

I really don't think we should compare abuse just like we shouldn't compare whether a one night stand or EA is not as bad as an LTA.

the intent in having an affair is not to harm the other spouse although it is a very likely result.

Although I would argue it is.

"Hey I know this could blow up my family and is one of the most toxic things anyone can do considered as transgressive on the list of biggest no-nos -- right up there with not killing someone -- in every human culture for 5,000 years. But I'm going to do it anyway."

That's intent, man. All over.

[This message edited by Thumos at 4:06 PM, September 30th (Wednesday)]

Our culture is greatly influence from Judeo-Christian tradition. In that tradition, Jesus drank wine, he didn't smoke doobies. David committed adultery, he didn't punch women in the face. Also, in that tradition, adultery--while a very serious offense--was seen as something that can be forgiven. It is not really a logical outcome.

Actually adultery as a transgression is among the list of things CS Lewis termed "The Tao" because it appears in most human cultures on almost every portion of the planet. It's among a common set of constraints philosophers refer to as "the moral law"

Lewis outlines this concept in a great short volume called "The Abolition of Man" and it has an index where he demonstrates the commonality of objective values in cultures past and present, Eastern and Western. Over and over, we see the same emphasis on filial duties, piety, chastity, respect for elders, loyalty, justice and so on. Lying, theft, murder, adultery etc. are censured again and again.

[This message edited by Thumos at 4:19 PM, September 30th (Wednesday)]

Also, I get the comparison to rape in a sense, but still stand by my above statement. I’d rather be cheated on than raped. Again, I’d NEVER tell a rape victim, “I sort of understand what you’re going through. My husband cheated on me.”

Not me. I've been raped and that was horrific. Infidelity was worse and more traumatic.

I thought to myself that while I absolutely made intentional decisions that I knew were wrong, I had no idea that what would result would be Trauma. I didn't know people got PTSD from it. I didn't know much about trauma at all actually. I think that the tendency for those unaffected by infidelity view it the same - many WS included. From an outsiders perspective, or even from what is conveyed in books, movies, etc. the degree of hell is really not realized until you are actually in it.

This is a great point to remember, Hikingout. I don't think WS's understand or even know about the trauma until they find themselves in the hellishness of it with their betrayed spouses. I think the media needs to do a better job of getting the word out about the latest research and what it implies on all levels for mental health, trauma, loss of social capital and more. The damage is really incalculable.

Nota bene, I am not discounting reconciliation. I fondly hoped for it for myself. I don't see it now, and you can tell I've spent a lot of time thinking deeply about it.

I wish everyone the best in their journey.

Although I would argue it is.

"Hey I know this could blow up my family and is one of the most toxic things anyone can do considered as transgressive on the list of biggest no-nos -- right up there with not killing someone -- in every human culture for 5,000 years. But I'm going to do it anyway."

That's intent, man. All over.

Well.od argue that they didnt have that thought process at all. Wh said he didnt think of me at the time, he didnt think of anything but the pleasures of ego kibbles and getting off. He never thought I'd find out so how could I ever be hurt...and that later thought only came after he came lol

Maybe not that exact line of thought, but any human with a conscience will think through "isn't this wrong? Couldn't I hurt my wife/husband? What if they find out?"

Now I agree they push those thoughts away, but they do have them.

Having been in situations where a woman other than my wife found me attractive and it was obvious, and knowing the split second cartoon angel/devil on the shoulder debate I had with myself and how I decided that would be a very bad idea, I find it difficult to believe WS didn't have the same experience.

I'm with you, Thumos. All I needed to do was think "how would I feel if he did this to me" and there you are, decision made to not do this. Empathy. If a person doesn't have that, they're pretty freakin' dangerous to you on a number of levels.

Dragn, your WH said he thought you'd never find out so he did think of you, he just felt the risk was worth the reward.

As I type this post, I'm looking at an ad for Dr Phil's book. Besides thinking why did they half ass photoshop a mask on his face for a book that was written well before the pandemic, I wonder how much of the R stuff society throws out is financially motivated. I shudder to think about how much money I've spent on MC, books, workbooks seminars, IC, and other shit like medications and bourbon. The quick math in my head says I could have bought a damn nice Tesla and that doesn't include the time costs, or the cost to stay in hotels for time apart, or shit that was flung against the wall. The fucking sleepless nights, fights, tears, and pain...

Oh well, at least my WW got fucked a few times and got some attention from a loser she eventually tossed aside.

Hell yes cheating is abuse. And neko is right too- society almost romanticizes infidelity and that shit needs to stop.

All that said, I’d rather be cheated on 100 times than have a husband who physically assaults me. You’re talking all of the emotional trauma mixed in with literal physical trauma. Domestic violence steals more lives than STIs or STDs. It’s still awful, but Id never tell a battered woman I know how she feels.

I've dealt with both and I can honestly say I'd rather deal with physical abuse again than emotional abuse if I had to choose and I've heard other women who've experienced both say the exact same thing. I'm thinking there are probably some people who would rather have a partner hit them than cheat on them again.

I think part of it is because violence is very clear cut and there is a TON of support socially and legally in order to deal with it. Get hit once and a whole team of people with step up to help protect you and stop it from happening again. You will almost never hear that you deserved it or did something to make it happen. Even if you think you had some part in it, there will be a choir of people and information to let you know that you are not to blame and help break you out of that trap. AS IT SHOULD BE. You get none of that for emotional abuse and despite thousands of hours on books, podcasts, forums, and therapy, I still some times question my own perceptions on what happened or wonder if someone will tell me I'm overreacting if I talk about it because it wasn't as bad as it could have been. The physical abuse is the only thing I can point to and definitively say without fear of retaliation, "Yep. That was bad."

Sticks and stones may break my bones but words can require years of therapy.

And the affects on the children? Not even comparable in my opinion.

Really? Because infidelity trickles down through families much in the same way other forms of abuse do. Being a child of a cheater makes you more likely to cheat yourself much in the same way being a child of an abusive spouse will increase your odds of being abusive or a victim of abuse yourself.

Are you familiar with the poster yearsofpain? Reading his posts may change your mind about there being no parallels.

I’d rather be cheated on than raped.

I was raped too and I still think that dealing with the fallout of my XWBF was worse in a lot of ways and took me longer to recover from. I wouldn't be surprised if I am not alone in that.

Just to give you an example - I recently had a symbolic dream about my XWBF and I realized it's around the same time 10 years ago that shit show was kicking off. I have never once dreamed about my rapist and frankly don't think much of him at all.

Again, I’d NEVER tell a rape victim, “I sort of understand what you’re going through. My husband cheated on me.”

If you told me you felt physically violated and repulsed to the point that physical intimacy became difficult for you for a while, I'd actually say you do sort of understand what it's like. If you're like 36 who said he feels completely turned off and repulsed when his WW grabs his crotch because it was part of what happened between her and OM then I'd say you can relate to the trauma of being raped given there are enjoyable sexual things that have been forever tainted and taken off of the table for me because of the circumstances surrounding what happened. They have more in common than you think with regards to the aftermath and the ways in which our lives are changed. Trauma is trauma.

In the history of people’s existence, would my life story (focusing mostly on adultery) even make it into the top billion stories of having shitty lives? No, probably not.

My top 5 stories of worst and most abusive spouses ever ALL have infidelity in them. I can't even think of one case of a spousal murder in which infidelity was not present and I'm a true crime addict. There's always infidelity of some form lurking around and yet there's usually not physical abuse and only sometimes is emotional abuse reported. This is one of the points I think Thumos is trying to make - abuse and infidelity go hand and hand. They are not separate entities that deserve treatment as if they have very little to do with each other. We don't need to be telling BSes their pain is self absorbed if they compare it to another form of abuse because IME, they are comparable. As I said, I have found that the feelings I've experienced from various forms of abuse and rape to be on par with some of the feelings other BSes feel. I don't think that's a coincidence.

Not all cheaters are necessarily abusive but most abusive spouses are also cheaters. I don't think that's a coincidence and I think because of that we should be treating infidelity as closer to other forms of abuse. As I said before - I have felt a definitive end to physical and sexual abuse. Once that person was no longer in my life, I was no longer afraid of the abuse happening again. IME, there's a lot of awareness and support about physical and sexual abuse that makes it easier to avoid people who do those kinds of things. I've had quite a few women out men who had sexually harassed them openly. Any time a man was physically abusive with his girlfriend, people in his social circle knew about it, talked about it, and condemned it. If cops have been called, if charges have been filed, if reports have been made, that information is easily findable these days.

I'm not saying this is foolproof or that anyone has a responsibility to do a full background check with references when you date someone new but what I am saying is that you very rarely have this social climate of exposure when it comes to cheaters and emotionally abusive partners. In fact, it's the exact opposite. No one wants to talk about it until after they have found a new victim and that new victim is the one to start calling them out. So to me, even though my XWBF is gone and dusted a whole decade now, I feel like I'm still dealing with some of the same triggers by seeing all of these little red flags waving in people around me and having to play Schrödinger's asshole from time-to-time. And I always think back to my own experience of how things were so much worse than anyone knew or could even understand. I start to wonder, how many BSes have things they are not comfortable posting about because they're afraid of how it reflects back on them some how because these issues are not seen as clear cut as other forms of abuse? I've been paying attention and I can tell you I see it all the time that the topic of the thread doesn't even compare to something revealed deep in the comments that most people miss. Infidelity is more common and still relevant to my life in ways rape and physical abuse just isn't and in some ways it's even worse because it's considered "not as bad". At least I can feel like people are generally supported and have options when it comes to those issues in way that people dealing with betrayal do not have access to.

One more comparison - 40 years ago many victims of physical abuse and sexual assault WERE frequently told that they were partially to blame, that they had responsibility for the perpetrator's reaction to them, and that it wasn't as bad as it could be because someone else had it worse. At least they weren't dead or a sex slave or whatever. Those are the exact same things BSes are being told today and you know how people back then caused that change to happen? By raising awareness, facts, and sharing experiences. That's why this thread is important and why we need to talk about it more, not less.

I totally agree with you on all counts, except that in my case it was a Punch to the Back of the Head, it floored me, leaving me totally bewildered and concussed. And when I was down and out for the count, This was then followed By a kick in the guts and then Rape just for good measure. Adding to and multiplying the injury.

My WS called Rape, ‘make up sex’ except that we weren’t fighting, at least I never fought back. Fighting back only lead to more abuse, injury and trauma.

If you think this is horrific, it actually happened.

Adulterers are gutless, soul destroying killers. But so weak and Gutless that they generally attack from behind. To scared to face up to you except when they have their hand firmly gripped around your throat. At any time you dare to scream, they will crush your larynx and slowly squeeze the life from you.

I feared my abuser, actually I was terrified. So you learn very early on to comply with their demands or you will have hell to pay.

Did I Love my Adulterous Abuser? Absolutely Not. Did my Abuser Love me? To this day he swears that he will always love Me!? He definitely Loved to hurt and abuse me. I didn’t want or do I want his brand of Love. It’s sick! I certainly didn’t deserve that ‘Love’.

I've dealt with both and I can honestly say I'd rather deal with physical abuse again than emotional abuse if I had to choose and I've heard other women who've experienced both say the exact same thing. I'm thinking there are probably some people who would rather have a partner hit them than cheat on them again.

I’m very sorry you’ve been a victim of domestic violence. I still stand by what I said. I, knowing this pain of infidelity very well, would still never tell a battered woman I know what she’s going through. I still would rather experience infidelity again than to be in a physically abusive relationship. Support or understanding from others be damned. My life is more important. My PHYSICAL safety is more important. Again, DV kills more than anything sexually transmitted.

Really? Because infidelity trickles down through families much in the same way other forms of abuse do. Being a child of a cheater makes you more likely to cheat yourself much in the same way being a child of an abusive spouse will increase your odds of being abusive or a victim of abuse yourself.

I more so meant the affects of the children witnessing their father beat their mother, or even him raging at her, having more of a negative impact than infidelity. Not so much whether it would become a generational thing or not. Which, if I had a son and I HAD to choose whether he’d cheat on his wife or beat the shit out of her, I’d choose cheating. Luckily, that’s not a thing, and I don’t even have a son.

I was raped too and I still think that dealing with the fallout of my XWBF was worse in a lot of ways and took me longer to recover from. I wouldn't be surprised if I am not alone in that

This isn’t something I share, but I was molested as a child by my best friends father. I wasn’t actually raped, and still I’d choose infidelity over being placed back in a pool with that man, or on his living room couch with him. I think I’d rather be beaten, and I’ve already said I’d take infidelity over that shit.

If you told me you felt physically violated and repulsed to the point that physical intimacy became difficult for you for a while, I'd actually say you do sort of understand what it's like.

Nope. I don’t agree. I won’t even tell someone I understand them being raped after being molested as a child. The triggers that come from mind movies, and triggers that come from actually experiencing a sexual trauma, aren’t comparable to ME. That’s my opinion. I don’t mean this as argumentative and can respect you have different thoughts.

The real question is whether the abuse can stop and the healthy marriage can begin. If not, it's always better for everyone to walk away.

Amen to that. The tricky part is how to know?

I’d rather be cheated on 100 times than have a husband who physically assaults me

I’ve been assaulted by an XBF (hell, he once shot at me and I’ll never forget the sound of a bullet passing about 10” from my ear). That was a cake walk compared to the trauma of being cheated on. There are plenty of BS who were also rape victims, and we often hear that dday was worse. I dunno. Seems like I’m taking the bait of comparing and that doesn’t sit right. Personally, I’d much rather my WH had hit me the day he decided to drop his pants. I’d have more than a decade of my life back.

This is one of the points I think Thumos is trying to make - abuse and infidelity go hand and hand. They are not separate entities that deserve treatment as if they have very little to do with each other. We don't need to be telling BSes their pain is self absorbed if they compare it to another form of abuse because IME, they are comparable. As I said, I have found that the feelings I've experienced from various forms of abuse and rape to be on par with some of the feelings other BSes feel. I don't think that's a coincidence.

Me either – and that was one heckuva post Neko – I’d already written my stuff out when I read it (and went ahead & posted), but kudos for also bringing in the vast amount of support available to those who experience physical/sexual assault…. but for a BS? crickets.

Punching someone in the face or emotionally abusing them is done with the intent to inflict pain/harm. Usually that is done for purposes of controlling that person.

The LIES that go along with an A ARE controlling. In addition to my own history, I've known a fair amount of physically abused spouses (and abusers, for that matter) and I honestly don’t see any difference. The punching is often in response to some sort of feeling in the abuser who does not have the “COPING SKILLS” to address (sound familiar? ). Batterers don’t necessarily intend the physical harm they actually inflict, either. IOW, the intent between cheaters & batterers may not be such a dividing line. Both abusers have a feeling or a void or an urge that they cannot or will not control – they “act out” as a way to cope with uncomfortable emotions. Obviously some batterers do intend to beat the crap out of their victims, just as some As are a way to “get back” at a BS for some perceived slight against the WS. Even if an A is a “secret” form of dominance, there IS dominance and often an INTENT to have that kind of dominance & control over the BS – I just don’t think most WS can ever admit that to themselves, but we see it ALL THE TIME with the blameshifting that goes on after dday. Hell, we hear from rapists all the damn time that they didn’t think they were doing anything “wrong” to the victim, they didn’t think they were “harming” the victim, that they didn’t INTEND to harm the victim. I think both battering & infidelity stem from VERY similar things intent or lack thereof is a red herring.

And FWIW, the manslaughter v murder is also a red herring. If intent is the standard, then why do we prosecute folks who burgled my home? They didn’t INTEND to hurt me – only to steal my stuff. They KNOW it’s wrong, and they did it anyhow and I was harmed (and that harm is not solely financial – anyone who’s been burgled knows how creepy it is. And I lost more than the value of what was stolen – who puts a price on their grandfather’s watch? Or the “costs” involved with comforting your young children who lost a sense of safety in their home?). Now, our legal system says that our society cares a LOT about $ (and we do- as infidelity is a fraud upon a M, but lacks ability in all but a handful of states to seek redress about…. but if the fraud involves depriving someone of their $$$, our legal system is all in for that),but not so much about non economic harm (and- TRIGGER WARNING- rape is also a good example here – we prosecute rape bc it is abuse and creates tremendous emotional harm. So – why do we prosecute rape for a victim that is passed out? What if that victim doesn’t even have so much as a paper cut as to physical injury? The rapist didn’t INTEND to harm the victim, who was just incapable of consent and basically slept through the whole thing?)

At the end of the day, I think adultery lurking in the shadows may be the worst part of it. Not only vis-à-vis the lies to the BS, but the broader secrecy that exists in our culture/society. IOW, if the BS of the world got together and shone a giant and public light on the issue, I do believe change can happen (tho it could only be via the “stick” of legal action or social shunning vs a preferable “carrot” approach of looking at M differently).

One of the first places to start is divorce and AP laws. Most states have – relatively recently – done completely away with the ability to sue an AP. If I could sue my WH’s POSOW, I would do it in a heartbeat (she’s far wealthier than I’ll ever be and while my WH may have raped me, she absolutely helped hold me down while he did it). In the context of D, the theory of “no fault” has, IMHO, taken quite a skewed turn. No fault came about for good reason – that folks should be able to D w/o having a legal “reason”. And I agree with that. The problem is that it’s become warped to basically preclude the courts from even considering the fault for the demise of the M… most states won’t allow a court to even consider non-physical “bad” conduct during the M (and even the physical can be shaky in some states). I thought this was bad policy long before my own dday. Basically, if someone causes their spouse trauma / PTSD due to the “abuse” of infidelity, that should absolutely be considered when dividing assets (and as to measuring emotional harm - just make it be a per se injury... we will ASSUME you are harmed, based upon the research - like we already do with rape). It should also tip the scales (all things being equal) on custody & child support. For the life of me I cannot understand how the legal policy of forcing a stay at home BS to leave their kids, get a job, disrupt EVERYONE’S lives solely bc s/he was abused by the WS via cheating.

I drive a fair amount for my (soon to be former) job, and if I had a $1 for every time I’ve contemplated putting up a billboard that says “adultery is abuse” with a picture of a woman with a beat up face, I’d be a rich woman. I have such deep respect for folks like Peggy Vaughan who came forward with her personal story to educate folks. The problem is that the current level of “education” is run by therapists who make $ off their books and programs (and ONLY 'after the fact'' ). It's not like an army of BS who can speak their personal truths and educate the public about the harm they experienced, the HARD EFFING WORK it is to get back on your feet, and the fact that it is abusive to live a secret sexual life (which is how physical abuse and rape laws were changed). The stigma of shame to the BS and the conventional wisdom that WS only cheat bc of some flaw in the BS or problem in the M remains PERVASIVE (hell, that was ME before dday). And, of course, there is the romanticizing of it all aspects of our culture (eg, why isn't there a call to boycott Amazon bc of Bezos? Or to send Kristen Stewart's career into the toilet by boycotting her "acting" after her A? Why is Alicia Keyes viewed as some great emotional songstress despite her sleeping with a MM?)

We have public service commercials about everything under the sun (bullying, the environment, being “kind”, racial equality, pet adoption, etc)…. why isn’t there a “the more you know” on cheating? I’d just LOVE to see that one play during say, the Superbowl.

Yet – the changes in views about adultery, the increasingly common thought that it causes PTSD, and the long term damage associated (to the BS, to the kids, to the standard of living, etc) is NEVER even mentioned on TV, or in the halls of state capitols or the training given to divorce judges. They don’t want to hear it (likely bc a significant # of them are also WS).

All I needed to do was think "how would I feel if he did this to me" and there you are, decision made to not do this. Empathy. If a person doesn't have that, they're pretty freakin' dangerous to you on a number of levels.

Me too.

WH said he thought you'd never find out so he did think of you, he just felt the risk was worth the reward.

Same here. The only “reflection” my WH says he did before moving from EA to PA in his LTA is a “risk analysis” of getting caught.

[This message edited by gmc94 at 5:38 PM, September 30th, 2020 (Wednesday)]

I just have to say, holy fucking shit.

I thought I was traumatized by this whole experience. This has been eye opening to the fact that not all situations involving infidelity are the same, not all WSs are the same, and not all Betrayeds experience the same levels of trauma.

Not even on my worst day would I think to compare it to DV or a SA. Im very sorry to those of you who have had such a truly awful journey. Even as a fellow betrayed, this post has given me more compassion for you all.

Maybe not that exact line of thought, but any human with a conscience will think through "isn't this wrong? Couldn't I hurt my wife/husband? What if they find out?"

Now I agree they push those thoughts away, but they do have them.

Having been in situations where a woman other than my wife found me attractive and it was obvious, and knowing the split second cartoon angel/devil on the shoulder debate I had with myself and how I decided that would be a very bad idea, I find it difficult to believe WS didn't have the same experience

.

So, I definitely think it should be as black and white as that. But there are some fundamental differences between a person who cheats and one who does this analysis and does not.

I have seen Chamomile tea describe the first aspect, and I think she is right. People who cheat do not have a firmness in their character that it’s wrong. Yes, logically it’s there but fundamentally I think it’s not internalized as part of our character. If you asked me if it was wrong I would have said yes. If you asked me if my husband cheated could I forgive him and I would say yes. (Literally this was a question and the answer that I have a friend far before my own cheating). Looking back it’s very telling about my own attitude about it. And the level of respect I had for myself and for marriage.

Second, cheating people tend to feel an entitlement to a reward. For me it was for pent up resentment. And that I felt I deserved to do something for me. Of course I know that is ridiculous. But the monitoring of one thoughts is not always as conscious as it should be.

Combine someone’s lack of character and integrity with entitlement there is a lot of stories one can tell themselves about what they are doing. “They won’t find out”, “I deserve this” and of course the well known rewriting of the marriage.

So if you asked me if I evaluated any of what you are saying, I can honestly say no not really. I was pretty convinced I would get away with it. That I deserved to do what I wanted. But I think I was also pretty done with my marriage and was not ready to face that fact fully either. Of course it wasn’t until later that I realized that a lot of what made me want to get out is a poor set of boundaries and keeping myself tied to a role that wasn’t really aligned with what I wanted. I blamed him, but it wasn’t him calling those shots it was me.

I think (and this is really just my own theory)the most chance a cheater has at becoming remorseful correlates with how weak the rest of their character is. If other things about them are strong they may be able to work past their issues and gain some humility of how wrong they were. This allows them to take in what they did to their spouse. If that happens I believe that goes along way of strengthening the aspects of their character that didn’t feel cheating was as wrong as it was. Taking full accountability and accepting consequences go a long way in that process.

People can not be remorseful while hiding from the truth of what they did to that other person. Remorse to me

Comes from listening and communicating with a mission to understand them

So that was a long winded way to say - cheaters do not think like you do. The very rational way you describe it is really not at all there. At least in my experience it wasn’t. At the same time I do believe people can strengthen their character and begin to think more in the way you describe. Willingness and ability just varies.

Let me add this, what about the victim of CSA what knows what trauma is and then inflicts that trauma on their spouse by having a long term physical affair? Does the prior excuse the latter? If not, should she know better? Or is the psyche so scarred that they don't equate the two even if they are unequal in pain and trauma. I happen to believe that CSA is far worse than an affair although I have not suffered from it. Children need to be protected. I am a big boy that can deal? with trauma

The LIES that go along with an A ARE controlling. In addition to my own history, I've known a fair amount of physically abused spouses (and abusers, for that matter) and I honestly don’t see any difference. The punching is often in response to some sort of feeling in the abuser who does not have the “COPING SKILLS” to address (sound familiar? ). Batterers don’t necessarily intend the physical harm they actually inflict, either. IOW, the intent between cheaters & batterers may not be such a dividing line. Both abusers have a feeling or a void or an urge that they cannot or will not control – they “act out” as a way to cope with uncomfortable emotions. Obviously some batterers do intend to beat the crap out of their victims, just as some As are a way to “get back” at a BS for some perceived slight against the WS. Even if an A is a “secret” form of dominance, there IS dominance and often an INTENT to have that kind of dominance & control over the BS – I just don’t think most WS can ever admit that to themselves, but we see it ALL THE TIME with the blameshifting that goes on after dday. Hell, we hear from rapists all the damn time that they didn’t think they were doing anything “wrong” to the victim, they didn’t think they were “harming” the victim, that they didn’t INTEND to harm the victim. I think both battering & infidelity stem from VERY similar things intent or lack thereof is a red herring.

gmc, preach! I think it's all the same too when it comes to "I didn't mean to hurt you", not because someone doesn't know that a punch is painful or that words are cutting or that rape is cruel or that cheating is going to hurt.

It is the same because in all of those cases the person harmed did not matter. The respect for them as human beings was not there. That's how one can hit, rape, insult and cheat. Everyone knows that these behaviors are harmful. Those who commit those acts don't care about that when they're doing it. When those things are done to you, it's the same message. You don't matter. You aren't really a person. You are here to meet my needs.

Infidelty and rape are very similar. Both are stealing your bodily autonomy and showing a profound lack of respect for the victim. DDay took me right back to being raped at 16. Right back to it. It was the same injury for me, but this time committed by someone I loved and who I believed loved me back. That is why the infidelity was worse. It was the same injury, but the perpetrator was different.

I agree, it is abuse but is minimized in books, films etc.

A little off topic, but I notice when the analogy is made to domestic violence/ physical abuse, the default scenario is , almost always male on female battery. Yet the stats seem to show the incidence of female on male abuse is, roughly, the same. Seems we should make a gender neutral analogy.

Yeah, I try to be gender-neutral on that, but do call me out if you see otherwise. It's all abuse whether it's man on woman, woman on man, woman on woman, man on man.

It was the same injury, but the perpetrator was different.

exactly.

almost always male on female battery. Yet the stats seem to show the incidence of female on male abuse is, roughly, the same.

Not sure if I've heard of that statistic (I know it is more common than most people think, but I'm not sure if it's limited to female to male or includes gay relationships). In any event, this is why I used terms like "batterers" and try to pay attention to the use of gender pronouns (and why it irks me to see generalizations using gender, eg WW or BH, vs the gender neutral WS or BS when not speaking of one's own specific situation or directly to another's specific situation on SI).

ETA: on a whim (aka procrastinating) I checked out the national council on domestic violence webpage. There is still a difference in male vs female victims of physical abuse, and they are all termed by the victim's gender and not the perpetrators (e.g., "1 in 3 women and 1 in 4 men have experienced some form of physical violence by an intimate partner" or "1 in 7 women and 1 in 25 men have been injured by an intimate partner" ). The list goes on, but I'm not seeing reference to the gender of said partner. Not saying women aren't also abusers. There are studies showing the roughly the same - or even higher incidence of women - when SELF reporting. And I suspect the stats on the entire issue can always be suspect due to cultural views about masculinity and related shame about reporting.

[This message edited by gmc94 at 9:38 PM, September 30th, 2020 (Wednesday)]