SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I meant not pursuing happiness...

It really helped me to realize that it is not possible for me to be happy or at peace all the time. Once I accepted that life is a struggle and the pursuit of happiness vs having meaning in my life is best for me, I guess I am at peace.

I agree.

I struggle with being bitter it is something I am definitely working on.

I think part of the reason why cheating is so traumatic us that there are so many contradictory messages....

Agreed. We hear 'conventional wisdom' decree both that the BS must leave and that the BS must forgive. Some of us grow up with one, some with the other, some with both. IMO,it's super important for the BS to hear the conventional wisdom and then shut it down in order to figure out what the BS wants to do in the BS's specific sitch.

The betrayed person should leave, but should try and make the marriage work if the cheater is remorseful. The betrayed spouse should stay and only leave if the cheater is (un)remorseful.

I think there was a typo there; if not, please let us know.

Again, it's important to get away from 'shoulds.' The only 'should' in infidelity is to figure out the best path for the person who has to decide - and healing is likely to be more complete if all 'shoulds' are quieted. IMO, healing is more complete the more one goes for what one wants.

I'm quite sure there was at once a "fuck you BHUK" and a "I never want her to find out about this" aspect to my Ex's A. Both things are possible. And the absolute devastation in the wake of Dday couldn't have been predicted.

To provide some counterpoint, there wasn't much 'fuck you, sisoon' to my W's A, and I was still devastated by it.

My W really didn't intend to hurt me, and I imagine that's pretty common in the As that hit good Ms. That's mainly why I believe the intentionality isn't that important to the BS's healing - the A is likely to be devastating under all circumstances.

I am a little confused as to why being a victim is a negative. I have had a couple experiences where I think anyone would agree I was a victim, CSA, a mugging, being cheated on. I know of no other way to describe being on the recieving end of those.

I agree to an extent - BSes are certainly victims.

The problem comes when one gets stuck in victimhood and keeps oneself for doing what one says they want to do because they've been victimized. For example, one stays stuck in the Victim role when one thinks something like, 'I can't do what I want/accomplish this specific goal because she cheated.'

For sure the trauma of d-day takes all one's energy for a while (and that 'while' can stretch to years), but at some point one will have energy to spare. We choose how to use that energy. In the post I took the quote from, the writer lost weight he didn't want to lose and gave up joy, and he eventually started eating and doing things he enjoyed again and even enjoyed his freedom from a toxic partner ... all signs of getting out of the Victim role. But that doesn't change the fact that he was, at one time, a victim of d-day trauma.

I don't for one second believe that folks get stuck in their victim role bc of the language being used to describe their experience. Indeed, I would characterize myself as MORE stuck before I was able to see and accept that I had PTSD...

Gently, I read you to be saying that you remained a victim of the language you used until you started dealing with the real effects on you of being traumatized. I may have misunderstood, however.

Again, dealing with the real effects of trauma is getting beyond being victimized and healing.

Another aspect of how language can affect a person is that describing a process in a few words makes it look easy to go through the process.

That's not necessarily the case with trauma; often, it's very difficult to even start the process. Recovering from infidelity is not quick or easy. Dealing with something like CSA or, sometimes, rape often takes years even to recognize one has been traumatized. It's common for people to suppress memories for 2-3 decades or more before starting to heal. And again, healing from some traumas takes years.

Also, it's not necessarily that language in itself causes an effect. Rather, I think the language we use lends itself to certain ways of thought and conclusions.

[This message edited by sisoon at 2:50 PM, October 3rd (Saturday)]

Has no one here had the experience of doing something wrong, hurting someone close, and then realizing they should have known they would hurt someone before they committed the hurtful act?

People are not perfect. There are lots of threads to life and lots of threads to most decisions. It's easy to get caught up in a moment and lose track of some potentially important inputs into a decision - and the consequences of that can be catastrophic to one's own life and the lives of those who are in one's circle of influence.

No BS is claiming to be perfect, you however are minimising infidelity. Understandable because you seem to have come out of it okay so you just project your capability onto others with no actual clue as to what they're going through, including the fact that there are many BWs here and you don't have a clue what it's like to be a woman, not to say it's more difficult for women but certainly a BH doesn't get to pretend he understands the difference for a woman because he doesn't.

Yes we've made mistakes in the moment, but carefully planning out an affair is not in a moment. It is calculated and manipulative. It requires lies and gaslighting. I shouldn't have to explain this to you but yet here you are describing it as some little mistake on par with any other human error.

And that IS what you're doing. By that argument rapists can claim that they aren't perfect and got caught up in the moment. Of course they can't because they know the difference between right and wrong and so do cheaters. And no amount of empathising will make us understand why a rapist thought it was okay to rape someone when they KNEW it was wrong. And it doesn't matter, because what matters is the victim, not the abuser who hurts people just to get what they want.

Just like a cheater KNOWS and GOES THROUGH THE CONSEQUENCES when they cheat. And no we don't need to empathise with their abuse by relating it to some small minor human error on our part because

IT'S NOT THE SAME. The INTENT is not the same, the DAMAGE is not the same. It is NOT MALICIOUS. And affairs are. Period. If you feel differently about your wife go ahead but you don't get to shame victims cause you don't like what it says about you. As you can see, there are clearly some victims here. So why should we minimise the abuse because you, one person, wants to tell us giving your spouse an STD because you DELIBERATELY took away their CONSENT to safe sex, is just a result of not being perfect.

That does NOT happen IN THE MOMENT. It's them CHOOSING to do that.

OVER

AND OVER

AND OVER

not getting tested. Hurting their spouse's health. But yeah, caught up in the moment.

More like caught up in 1 million moments EXCEPT

YOU KNOEW EXACTLY WHAF YOU WERE DOING

Then HAVE THE AUDACITY to claim they're a GOD PERSON.

No, it's the result of being an abuser who deliberately abused you. VERY different to just being a person who can apologise for a little wrong

An STD is not

When one has work to do, it's better to choose words that give one the power to do the work, not the words that give power to someone else, one's abuse.

Sisoon is basically agreeing it's abuse, but just doesn't like the word even thougg

it's a PERFECTLY WELL THOUGHT OUT ARGUMENT

AND

IS

BY

DEFINITION-

ABUSE

The more energy a person puts into

thinking in terms of abuse, the less energy is likely to be available for healing, IMO.

Calling infidelity 'abuse' mixes the focus up. The WS has one set of problems to solve. The BS has another set of problems. Healing requires focus on oneself. When 'abuse' is in the picture, the picture is about the effect of one person's actions on another, and that takes the focus away from the work that's needed for healing

.

This is just silly. How on earth is reconcilation NOT about focusing on the effect of person's actions on another.

What on earth is even WRONG with that. You're so concerned with not being a victim and shaming other victims that you're refusing to acknowledge something you as a human do and witness everyday.

We ALL HAVE TO AT SOME POINT look at the effects of one person's actions on another.

That's not weak or self pity. It's life.

Surviving Infidelity IS ABOUT THAT. Therapists SAY SO. Because how can they talk about having EMPATHY FOR THE BETRAYED spouse if the abuser doesn't have to THI K ABOUT THE effect of their actions on their spouse.

That's ALL RECONCILIATION is.

It's people like you who try to distract from that by saying it's ALL about the individual but that's a lie.

1. Because MARRIAGE is about 2 people so OF COURSE it's about the EFFECT one has on the other and vice versa.

And 2. OBVIOUSLY Because why would the abuser have to do this WORK??

Because they ABUSED SOMEONE.

THEIR SPOUSE.

ON PURPOSE.

And they want to stay with their spouse, probably to continue the ABUSE because they get off on it. Look at the BS here who have said that.

They like getting what they want and cake eating al of course they just want to continue the abuse or do it in a different/more covert/more clever way.

I digress.

But yes they WORK ON THEMSELVES BECAUAE OF WHAT THEY

did

TO their SPOUSE. That's why they do MC eventually.

Cause guess what sisson?

How the abusve cheater ABUSED their SPOUSE absolutely MATTERS.

And it doesn't take away from the HEALING

IT

IS THE

HEALING!!!!!

Why is that so hard to understand.

And victims are allowed to have EMPATHY for themselves. You just

CHOSE to call it pity. Just like you tell others not to call it abuse but you HYPOCRITICALLY call one acknowledging thwy were VICTIMISED and abused to be

Self

Pity.

Interesting.

You chose the negative connotations.

So when a person gives their spouse an STD that's getting caught in the moment and not being perfect, even though they planned ot meticulously and enjoyed calculating how to fool their spouse so it's not caught up, it's abuse.

But YET, when a betrayed spouse DARES to feel sorry for themselves,

They just have to

GET OVER IT

So, you don't expect an abusive cheater to take responsibility for abuse, and you expect us to relate to a person who willingly gives their spouse STDs and PRETEND they got caught up,

They don't have to be accountable for the ABUSE that it is.

Cause they just got 'caught up'

Aka planned it and deliberately did it.

But the betrayed isn't allowed to be caught up AT ALL in feeling sorry for themselves even though we all know we should be empathetic to ourselves lime we would to people who are going through difficult things.

But for ourselves apparently we aren't allowed to feel sorry for.

Only men and women who think it's fun to give their spouses STDs. They're allowed to be HUMAN, apparently that's just what humans do.

But for Sisson, the betrayed spouses have to be perfect saints and

Emotionally invincible. Do everything themselves to heal while the abuser

Pretends

They didn't understand that abuse is wrong so the extent of their work and stopping the abuse. Or in Sisoon's

Version: 'healing'. Sure. Healing. Random vague term that means nothing because if they're not FOCUSING on the abuse they did and not doing it again it's all crap.

All they have to do is literally stop being abusive.

Even if there was something else to this 'work'and 'healing' they have to do,

The idea that they then wouldn't have the 'energy'(oh please) to LOOK AT THE ABUSE they inflictee on their spouse,

Is laughable.

That's like running someone over over deliberately then focusing on the car and not the victim.

Btw they had the 'energy' to plan and cheat and lie so they can have the ENERGY to focus on their abuse to their spouse.

It's not collateral damage.

That's like punching someone and their face is collateral damage.

Or stealing and saying i didn't mean to hurt you, even though I OBVIOUSLY TOOK YOUR THINGS and shouldn't have so logically the ONLY PERSON who would be hurt here IS you.

You were just collateral damage.

No they weren't. The CRIMe

Like the

ABUSE

Is BASED ON DAMAGING THE VICTIM.

It IS ABOUT the victim, the betrayed spouse.

By this argument kids are collateral damage of domestic violence but guess what they're still VICTIMISED and its STILL ABUSE

A

B

U

S

E

Jut admit it.

You're sugarcoating it saying it's collateral damage.

You can call it whatever you want to dress it up. It does not make it so.

It IS EVIL, it IS ABUSE.

And the LIES THAT FOLLOW are MORE ABUSE.

So your caught up theory which is a lie, even for one night stands the CHEATER CHOSES TO BETRAY THEIR SPOUSE AND EMOTIONALLY ABUSE THEM.

They THEN LIE, to their spouse's face = ABUSE.

Wheb their spouse finds out? more lies = MORE ABUSE.

Not a 'moment' of being caught up. 1000s of minutes of LIES.

And they DO DO it for control, this is directed to whoever said otherwise and wants to pretend abuse is only about control which is a lie.

But it IS about control. The cheater controls EVERYTHING. They love it. They love playing with their spouse.

Whoever said something about the betrayed being a supporting character-houseofplane?? I think

Yeah, you just showed the FLAW in your argument cause you said it's not about the betrayed but clearly it IS if they're thinking of them enough to make them that supporting character. They don't juat want to secret world of affairs, they want the spouse TOO which is why they DO IT.

So they directly benefit from the ABUSE. They do it VERY MUCH because of their wanting to abuse their spouse not somehow aside from that like you tried and failed to explain.

That in itself DEMONSTRATES they are abusive. Again another flaw of yours-

What kind of individual (I know, abusers) have so little EMPATHY for their SPOUSES they demean their LIVES and HEALTH to just a role as a supporting character.

That's how ABUSIVE cheaters are. Youll see that on their boards. they do it on purpose. they enjoy it. The betrayeds lives dont matter, only THEIRS.

Cause they're ABUSERS who want the betrayeds lives to focus and CENTRE on THEM, but they make the Betrayed a small insignificant part of their lives, WHILST ABUSING THEM. Becausw that ABUSE makes the rest of their livws possible and fun.

Then they treat their aps wonderfully, typical abusers. Much like your serial killers who do that with each spouse.

houseofplane you're wrong and dishonest to say it's not about the betrayed spouse.

1. They didn't keep it a secret and the betrayed from knowing so they could have a private world of their own.

They did it so they could have that AND THE MARRIAGE.

So who did they lie to: betrayed.

It is BASED on lying to the BETRAYED.

Hiding from the BETRAYED.

GASLIGHTING

MANIPULATING

Getting off on DECEIVING the BETRAYED.

If it wasn't about the betrayed none of this would be necessary.

But it IS

Guess what???? Cause Cause it's ABOUT the betrayed.

For most the WHOLE APPEAL is because it's SECRET. From who???

The BETRAYED.

So they did it THINKING of the betrayed and DIDN'T CARE ABOUT THE DAMAGE.

And KingRat, who doesn't understand being a BS in the first place and is commenting from the more fortunate and privileged side of not receiving this abuse:

The INTENT

IS

MALICIOUS

And furthermore that DOESN'T MATTER.

They didn't mean to hurt you??

So what? They didn't MEAN NOT TO!!!

Actually they DID MEAN TO HURT YOU.

Because they could have protected you from STDs and DIDN'T.

So they DID MEAN TO HURT YOU.

One thing I came to understand from reading Susan Anderson's book, The Journey from Abandonment to Healing" was that the trauma from infidelity causes markedly different chemical reactions in the brains of those with a prior history of having had trauma , betrayal or abandonment in childhood.

It is , definitely abuse, IMO, but, per Anderson, recovering is much more difficult for those with this type of past experience. Maybe she is right, as we see a broad continuum of the degree to which people get better, as well as the length of time needed.

I don't for one second believe that folks get stuck in their victim role bc of the language being used to describe their experience. Indeed, I would characterize myself as MORE stuck before I was able to see and accept that I had PTSD... that I had been traumatized, which in turn allowed me to understand that my amygdala had overtaken executive function and was running the damn show and rather than kicking myself for not being able to "control" my symptoms, I needed help and I needed to accept that I had truly been traumatized in a way that I could not ignore. I also needed to accept that my WH is an abuser, whether he "intended" his behavior to be abusive or not. 

I will never, ever forget what one poster responded to me in my early days here on S.I. She said "FTG!" and I was so surprised that anyone would criticize the WH for the mess I was in. Needless to say, having people practically shake me was what I needed. While I was in the "what's wrong with me and why can't I seem to figure out how to fix this?" mode, I was going to go nowhere. Once I realized that what he was doing was causing me to have a form of PTSD and that the lies and betrayal were a form of abuse, it made all the difference in the world to me moving forward and beginning to start healing.

[This message edited by josiep at 5:25 PM, October 3rd (Saturday)]

the trauma from infidelity causes markedly different chemical reactions in the brains of those with a prior history of having had trauma , betrayal or abandonment in childhood.

It is , definitely abuse, IMO, but, per Anderson, recovering is much more difficult for those with this type of past experience.

Now I want to read this book because I can see how this is true.

I was date raped. Trusted the man I was with, he had been a friend for years. Never saw the rape coming.

I was molested. A man everyone trusted. No one believed me because he was such a great guy.

Both very traumatic abuses.

I trusted wh. And he cheated and cheated and...

One abuse after another. Youd think surviving one abuse and then another I'd be strong enough to just manage this infidelity stuff but its like I'm that little girl again or back trapped under that guy with my hands held above my head.

To much abuse.

Yes, it is a very good book, Drgn. She is a neuro physiologist, as I recall.

I checked. She is not a neuropsychologist or physiologist. But, I seem to recall she had consulted one or some to research her book.

How on earth is reconcilation NOT about focusing on the effect of person's actions on another.

We ALL HAVE TO AT SOME POINT look at the effects of one person's actions on another.

That's not weak or self pity. It's life.

Surviving Infidelity IS ABOUT THAT. Therapists SAY SO. Because how can they talk about having EMPATHY FOR THE BETRAYED spouse if the abuser doesn't have to THI K ABOUT THE effect of their actions on their spouse.

That's ALL RECONCILIATION is.

It's people like you who try to distract from that by saying it's ALL about the individual but that's a lie.

Umm, 80% of our therapy has been IC. The therapist's focus in IC is 10% validating our feelings and 90% empowering us to challenge those feelings--and the incorrect messages that are causing the feelings--and not allow the misery we felt to continue. What therapists are you talking about that don't focus on individual empowerment? I've never heard such a thing.

MC never focused on his wrongs and instead focused on getting him to acknowledge my feelings and asking him to choose differently. She also challenged me on my reactions to my feelings, essentially telling me to speak up, detach, not allow the messages in. She validated me, but only to a point.

Honestly, I have no clue how MC alone heals an M from infidelity because I could see that the MC was uncomfortable focusing on my H and his misdeeds, even though she clearly saw his issues. He absolutely needed IC (and she was glad he was getting it). How much "Tell her you're sorry" can an MC say? How many appointments? Not sure of other people's experiences, but our MC philosophically did not believe that saving an M would happen by belittling and shaming my H every session. Shame does not produce improvement; shame produces dysfunctional behaviors. There was NO way she was going to shame my H every session just because I wanted her to. She moved on from his wrongs to "What can we change here? What can we do differently so that both of you feel respected?" She looked a lot at our marital dynamic and the fact that any shame he felt in the M was making him look for an escape. His mom shamed him all his life. The MC NEVER blamed me for his behaviors, but she knew that our dynamic would need to change if H was going to get out from under this shame in his life. I would not be able to accidentally shame him without triggering him. I obviously did not want to do that.

We went to MC after years of IC. But still, the MC wants to look at the marriage, not one spouse. Most MCs see the R as the client, not the individual parties. The focus from all therapists we have seen has always been "Feelings aren't facts. You decide how you feel. You control your emotions, not the other way around." And if the feelings were real and deemed--by our own selves--to be valid and unacceptable, the IC helps you to take control over the person or situation causing the feelings, ending relationships and changing situations.

It is always, always, always about controlling the one person you can control--yourself--by leaving bad relationships, enforcing strong boundaries, and challenging feelings that harm your self-esteem and steal your joy, flipping the script and writing your own story. Always.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 8:38 PM, October 3rd (Saturday)]

the trauma from infidelity causes markedly different chemical reactions in the brains of those with a prior history of having had trauma , betrayal or abandonment in childhood.

This is exactly what I mean by what's packed in the baggage that arrives at the dday table. My luggage had past trauma and abandonment in some pretty profound ways. AND while I'd spent a fair amount of months/years in IC working on those past traumas, and believed they had been addressed, processed, and healed..... every single bit of that work seemed to go out the window on dday.

Basically, everything had to be deconstructed (again) and rebuilt (again.

There's a theory in law called the eggshell skull rule. It basically says that a wrongdoer is responsible for all damages/injuries to a victim, even if those injuries far exceed what would be experienced by a "normal" person (ie one w/o an "eggshell" skull).

I think that rule applies in infidelity. And I just bought another copy of Journey from Abandonment.

Only we know where we fall on this continuum and where our thinking needs to be.

Agreed (and lovely post OIN). And I think I'm somewhere between A- and B+ on that spectrum

I read you to be saying that you remained a victim of the language you used until you started dealing with the real effects on you of being traumatized.

I'm not sure I'm understanding this. It sounds like some circular logic, but I may be misunderstanding.

I was victimized by my WH's abuse. For me (and I recognize we all get to view this differently, on our own terms), that makes me a victim. And for me, it was not until I could see that I had been abused and I was a victim that now had PTSD - using that specific (and accurate IMHO) language - that I was able to begin the road to my own healing. And as OIN described, I NEEDED to see that, to know that, and to own that (or those "roles" ) in order to provide some self compassion and allow myself to feel it and process it and work to heal from it. I'd spent a lifetime denying myself that compassion... for the victim in me that grew from all kinds of abuse.

So yes, I am a "victim" AND I am awesome. I am smart and competent and capable and a host of other things. It's a part of my fabric, my being, my history. It defines me just as much as being a mother, or a daughter, or a BS, or a badass, or a cook, or a movie buff or even an absolute jerk. I am all of those things, and that's Ok. To take the words of Popeye: I am what I am, and dat's what I am. And it will forever include a "victim" part that deserves compassion.

I completely agree that being "stuck" in the victim role is problematic. But I don't think it's problematic because of the word "victim". It's problematic bc we are stuck.

[This message edited by gmc94 at 12:43 AM, October 4th, 2020 (Sunday)]

Abuse is a much maligned word, bandied about without much thought.

No infidelity is not abuse. It is rape. For most WS it is not a single instance. Every TT is a fresh act.

And like most of the WS I have seen, there is a pattern of minimisation, blaming the victim. The lucky BS seem to be the one where the WS walks away with the AP. The others have to bear the guilt of deciding between R and D, shit sandwich for life ,either way you choose. You keep on wondering if you were the plan b that was implemented.

The WS is a victim, a victim for life.

The scars that are just below the surface and remind you of their presence on a cold night. Like the premature death of a loved one, there can be no closure. You wonder about what it could have been if you were not forced into compromises.

I had a good D if there could be such a thing. But I grieve about the trauma faced by my kid. I grieve about the siblings my kid never had. I feel the loss of my potential.

I am thankful for the special rapport with my kid. It pulled me thru. But my kid would be frantic if any one of caretakers had to go away for more than a day. The "self inflicted" shame stunted my kids potential in early life.

This is the same kid that refused to "visit" X. I supported my kid fully. As the WS comment about the affair (never about the BS), once I decided to D, it was never about the WS. It was about creating a safe space for us. Finally WS was just collateral.

Yet at one level,do the feelings really cease? Do you really stop carrying a torch..ok a tiny pencil light maybe ?

Love thy abuser...huh

Truly it is the gift that keeps on giving.

[This message edited by btdi at 2:46 AM, October 4th (Sunday)]

the trauma from infidelity causes markedly different chemical reactions in the brains of those with a prior history of having had trauma , betrayal or abandonment in childhood.

recovering is much more difficult for those with this type of past experience. Maybe she is right, as we see a broad continuum of the degree to which people get better, as well as the length of time needed.

This makes a lot of sense and I didn't really understand why until I read "The Body Keeps the Score."

My reaction to my STBX's A with MOW was primal. The pain was unbearable and it combined all my traumas into one. I still cannot believe how long it has taken me to getting to a feeling of being ok. I have to admit that since separating and not having to be face to face with my perpetrator everyday has eliminated a lot of my triggers and intrusive thoughts. I finally feel like I am making some progress in healing. I don't think I would have been able to heal if I stayed. My STBX was still abusing me in other ways than infidelity with his narcissism. It was like a festering wound being opened again and again.

Onebiglie wrote

houseofplane you're wrong and dishonest

No problem being told I’m wrong, not a fan of being called a liar.

What’s your story onebiglie?

The problem comes when one gets stuck in victimhood and keeps oneself for doing what one says they want to do because they've been victimized. For example, one stays stuck in the Victim role when one thinks something like, 'I can't do what I want/accomplish this specific goal because she cheated.'

Depending on what that goal is, I don't see this as a problem. It's like deciding to never drink whiskey again because once you drank too much, threw up, and now the smell of whiskey turns your stomach. Do you feel as if your life would be better with whisky in it in that case? Of course if you want to, you could work through it but most people can live happy, fulfilled lives, healthier even, without whiskey. An alcoholic desperately wants to drink whiskey but it wouldn't mean they are stuck in their healing with regards to addiction if they decide the consequences of doing so are greater than the reward.

It's entirely up to the individual if they are okay with giving something up or not because of the linger affects of trauma. It's up to them whether they think the work of training themselves to like or do something that they no longer want to because of triggers is worth the effort or not. Some times it's not worth the effort. Some times having that thing or hobby in your life was great while it lasted but you're not really missing it enough to want to deal with trying to re-introduce it in your life.

It's not realistic to hold everyone to this standard that they must have completely given up all triggers and can do anything and everything they wanted to before the trauma especially if they are now dealing with PTSD. Counselors specializing in PTSD describe it as having a jar you now carry around of smelly, disgusting liquid and triggering causes the top to come off. They can help you tighten the jar to prevent it from happening. They can help you be able to bounce back from spilling that liquid quickly and safely. They can't help you get rid of the jar entirely because that's not always possible. This is the new normal for many of us and that doesn't mean we're stuck just because we're content with it.

Gently, I read you to be saying that you remained a victim of the language you used until you started dealing with the real effects on you of being traumatized. I may have misunderstood, however.

To me, seeing it this way is like thinking everything is a nail because you're holding a hammer. Whether she is a victim of the language she uses or not is more due to your perspective than necessarily what may be happening with regards to her reality. You could also frame it as she was in denial to the severity of her experience and she was unable to move on from it while still minimizing it. You could frame it as her choosing not to see herself as a victim and therefore she didn't think she needed to focus on any healing. Her victimhood with regards to language is one of many ways to frame it and I believe that as the person telling their experience, it's up to her which is the truth of her reality and not other people.

Again, dealing with the real effects of trauma is getting beyond being victimized and healing.

Until you can give concrete examples of what you mean, I don't think you're going to find many people agreeing with you in this thread. This sentence is so vague that I don't have a clue what you're talking about and how it differentiates from any of the examples and experiences we are providing. To me, it just looks like you're throwing out disagreements based on your own bias because you think using the terms "victim" and "abuse" is unhealthy. That is to imply you think the fact that anyone who is comfortable acknowledging having been a victim is stuck in their healing by default. I'd like to think that you're not just telling people what they are or are not feeling though and perhaps this argument from you has gone a little too far into a "blaming and shaming" route that I don't think you meant to take. I believe this implication is why you're getting a lot of heated pushback.

Also, it's not necessarily that language in itself causes an effect. Rather, I think the language we use lends itself to certain ways of thought and conclusions.

Ok but how do you know anyone here who has shared a perspective based on their own experience that you don't agree with is actually coming to these thoughts and conclusions? How do you know if using language in this way is a guaranteed path to these thoughts and conclusions? Honestly, if these thoughts and conclusions are so terrible and harmful, maybe you should tell us what they are so that we can avoid them.

But even if this line of thought is tangibly related to something bad, so what? Find me a word or concept that isn't tangibly related to Hitler. If we start cutting them all out, there's going to be a lot more awkward silence in the world.

Reading all this...I view myself as someone eho ignored red flags and remained in a relationship with someone who treated me horribly. I don't tebd to think of it as abusive. I view it as him just not giving a shit

What matters is healing. If thinking of yourself as a survivor is what you need to heal, theb do that

If thinking you had been abused is what you need, that is ok too

Healing is what matters.