SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

What about “unfaithful” then? That’s the term Linda McDonald uses in her gold standard book.

What about “unfaithful” then? That’s the term Linda McDonald uses in her gold standard book.

Why does it matter?

Cheating, affair, adultery, infidelity.

How does that help a BS find their way out of this shit storm?

What's the end game here? We all pretty much agree that cheating, infidelity, adultery, affairs are all a form of abuse.

I don't agree that the above is on the same level as rape or assault but that's my opinion. Others see it differently. That's ok. So what do we gain from pushing the cheating as abuse mantra? How does that help new BS's here?

How does that help the waywards?

This site was created by both BS and WS to help both sides.

I totally agree with BSR.

And, honestly other than the actual wayward forum, most people use whatever language they want to in the forums anyway.

I would even venture to say I learned way more participating/reading in the General/Rec. forum than wayward.

I think you are thinking in terms of "punishment", and maybe "accountability". I think we strongly encourage accountability on this site. I don't believe in the punishment aspect. I believe there are natural consequences to ones actions. Meaning, I don't need to see all the harsher language as punishment here. I have experienced enough in the way of natural consequences on my own.

I do not look at my BH as my punisher by any means or stretch of the imagination. Even if he divorced me I would not see this as punishment. Accountability is about accepting natural consequences to ones actions.

Someone unwilling to do that, is not going to do it through punishment either.

Also, I think if a BS thinks of it as punishing, that makes them feel badly themselves in most cases. You can have compassion for someone and still not have them in your life. You can have compassion for yourself that you aren't going to hold yourself to that role either.

As for the other part of the discussion:

I would never say that infidelity is not abuse after going through the aftermath of all of it. I can say that recognizing it I would not abuse anyone the same way again. So, if you put it under the same perspective as thisisfine, I think my husband feels his life is better with me IN THE ABSENCE of any further abuse. I am not sure my husband would say stay despite abuse, but I think at that point we are just in semantics.

That's not how categorization and identification works.

That's exactly how categorization works. You abstract out differences and reason about similarities in order to treat them similarly, based on the fact that they fit into the same category. And that is what Thumos' first post in this thread did. Lumped them together to treat them similarly.

Why bother to even state that forks and spoons are both kitchenware? to what purpose, if not to treat them similarly in some way?

More importantly, why have this thread on how adultery is in fact abuse, if you're not trying to lump all types of abuse together and throw them into the same bucket, to reason about?

Again, fine on that. Here's where I see two big positives for it.

1. A WS doesn't understand the pain their affair causes. They (think they) understand the pain of getting punched in the face. Lumping them together helps them understand. Your affair was like getting punched in the gut by you over and over. Maybe now you understand?

2. It validates your pain. It was about you, abuse is something done to you, you were abused. Although as everyone here notes, it is actually worse than what most people think of as "plain vanilla" abuse.

[This message edited by HouseOfPlane at 1:58 PM, October 7th (Wednesday)]

There are other reasons to say them too, like they are consumed with guilt over having had the fantasy and needed to offload their story. That would hurt A LOT to hear. But still abusive?

Not unless it becomes a pattern of behavior.

I read about a husband on another site who had an issue in which his wife kept radically changing the stories about her sexual history. He really didn't care about her number or what she had done but every few months she had a new story that completely conflicted the last one or she claimed she had been lying about some other story she gave him in the past or she would say she was lying about lying and the original story was true. He didn't care about her sexual history one way or the other but the fact that she kept blatantly lying or revealing herself as having lied suddenly made the topic a big deal to him because he just didn't want to keep having these dramatic confessions/reveals every few months. The truth was probably something he wouldn't even care about but all the secrecy and odd behavior around it made him question it more and start to wonder if maybe there was something worse than he had imagined in her past or something he would find disagreeable which made him feel bad.

Talking about the past is an action that no one would consider abusive. Even lying about sexual history is not generally considered abusive. But what she did does fit within the definition of abuse because it was a pattern of behavior meant to control his perception in a way that changed the power dynamic of their relationship. She got to feel whatever she was getting out of those interactions whether it's an ego boost to get one over on him, a sadistic sense of satisfaction from him being blindsided, an energy boost from the drama cycle they go through, or just a sense of relief to confessing even if it was a false confession. Either way, he was left reeling and questioning which way was up. That's what I mean by a change in power dynamics. She took something that had no power over him and created a situation in which it suddenly mattered so much to him that he was considering ending their marriage.

Why bother to even state that forks and spoons are both kitchenware? to what purpose, if not to treat them similarly in some way?

More importantly, why have this thread on how adultery is in fact abuse, if you're not trying to lump all types of abuse together and throw them into the same bucket, to reason about?

Do you not see the contradiction in these two statements?

You can include adultery under the umbrella of abusive behaviors without lumping it together in the same way you can include a fork in the category of houseware without forgetting what a fork is and how to use it. The term "abuse" doesn't suddenly make the differentiation between adultery and physical abuse nonexistent. And the reason they are being categorized together is because they both fall under the definition of abuse. Thumos is throwing them into the same bucket in the same way a TV is an electronic which is not in any way strange or unusual.

The reason people are posting comparisons in that way is to show how some of the advice regarding infidelity contrasts so greatly to advice given for other forms of abuse. It's not to say that there is no difference between them. It's a thought experiment. If you think that there can't possibly be any similarity between getting punched in the face and infidelity, that's your opinion but it does make me curious to how you react to the multiple BSes ITT who have said they would gladly take getting beat up over getting cheated on. Ones who know all too well what a punch to the face feels like and what infidelity feels like.

I was not trying to create a real or false dichotomy between choosing to stay or leave. I wasn't trying to say that leaving would make you broken and unhappy. I was using it as a purely hypothetical difference between lives you might live. One that is mostly happy and fulfilling, but that you live with some level of abuse. Another where you are depressed and unhappy, but at least no one is abusing you. Is one really better than another?

At the end of my post, I tried to make it clear I'm not speaking in generalities. I'm speaking of understanding that infidelity is abuse, and that accepting and recovering a relationship with a person that has abused you means living with abuse. Some people can do this. Some people cannot. I'm not saying it is right or wrong to stay or go.

If it is like living with hot irons pressed to you everyday, you should leave, because you will not be happy and fulfilled. If it is like getting flicked in the the ear every once and a while, that's still assault, but maybe you can live with it as an annoyance in your otherwise fulfilled and happy life. It depends on how it feels to you.

Now, moving on to real life dichotomies and decisions. Let's say you choose to leave, there are repercussions. You only get half time with your kids. Maybe you have to move out of your dream house. You still have to see the parent of your child, they will never be out of your life completely. You might have shared assets you have to split. This is the "reality" of making that choice. That's why when someone shows up, young, no kids, no house, no business, no shared assets, almost universally we tell that person to run. Their real dichotomy is not preserving a mostly happy life with an abuser weighed against destroying that life and starting anew. It's preserving what is essentially only a romantic relationship with an abuser against breaking a lease.

The real life dichotomies can be anywhere in between. Those making the decision can also be wrong and misinformed about the severity of one option or the other, and learning from people that have made either sort of decision is valuable (and what is provided on this forum).

I think that listening to yourself is the most important part though. It isn't whether I would divorce in your situation, whether the bible would have your partner stoned twice, whether someone else could forgive and make it work, whether someone else has it much worse and made it work. It's about what you want to live with, whatever decision you make.

Thank you for that. I get what you're saying now.

Why bother to even state that forks and spoons are both kitchenware? to what purpose, if not to treat them similarly in some way?

More importantly, why have this thread on how adultery is in fact abuse, if you're not trying to lump all types of abuse together and throw them into the same bucket, to reason about?

Your spouse tells you daily how ugly and stupid you are. They try to destroy your self-esteem at every turn.

Your spouse beats you to within an inch of your life and tells you that if you tell anyone about it, they'll kill you.

They are both abuse. Saying that both of those scenarios are abuse is not saying that the reaction to each is to be identical. One clearly needs immediate intervention to save a life. Get a restraining order, call in all of your support system and the police. The other is something you should just break up over.

Why does it matter?

Cheating, affair, adultery, infidelity.

If it doesn't matter, I guess I'm confused as to why there would be an objection to using terms like "unfaithful" and "adultery" or in having something of a "MeToo" moment that truly recognizes the abusive nature of adultery.

I think it would be rather healthy. We saw the same movement with respect to domestic violence in the past, and date rape, and other issues. We know that social capital is being demolished in our society due to adultery, which is increasingly rampant. As current BS's and former WS's it would seem to me we would want to embrace such an accounting to prevent the same pain for others in the future.

I'd go back to my earlier example of the South African Truth and Reconciliation (reconciliation being a key word here) Commission as conceived by Archbishop Tutu and others. The intent there was not to punish at all. The intent was to air the truth, as ugly and as painful as that was, and to have a national accounting.

The intent insofar as my starting the thread was:

1. I was struck by the argument I had composed and the fairly airtight logic of it.

2. I think thought experiments are a useful way of testing ideas, and ideas and the importance of words are both very much wrapped up in how we should think about adultery and deal with it.

3. I'm trying to test my own assumptions as much as anyone else's here.

As far as my advocacy on the use of the word "adultery," my intent is not to punish, at least from my standpoint, but rather to avoid euphemizing our language into doublespeak. As well, to truly look at what the thing is in and of itself, thus the thought experiment around how we view and treat other forms of abuse in marital settings.

As George Orwell put it succinctly, “Political language is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind.”

By "political language" he meant language which was less concrete, less specific, tending toward euphemisms, and full of elisions.

And this is at least part of why I think this thread is a useful and very healthy discussion.

I'm a little nonplussed by some of the reactions on it being unhelpful or confused about why we'd be discussing this. Isn't this the very point of SI? To deal with and grapple with all facets of the impact of adultery on real human beings in real three dimensional time and space? To bear witness to the pain? To be a place for healing? Wouldn't healing in such cases all but require an airing of the truth about the nature of the thing, the truth of what BS's experience?

While I do think that SI has made a point of welcoming WS's, the guidelines are pretty clear that this site is intended to be something of a safe space primarily for betrayed spouses to suss out and grapple with the impact of infidelity on their lives. Isn't that so?

I think I noted earlier in this thread that adultery is such a thorny, complex problem with so many downstream effects and different facets it's like a multi-faceted stone we must turn around in our hand to truly grapple with and contemplate the complexity. It's probably the thorniest and most complex set of problems most of us have ever experienced or are likely to experience.

That's a little bit of what I'm trying to do here, or at least I hope I am, and what I hope others are doing here as well. I'm also obviously interested in understanding, contemplating and processing my own experience. One way I do that is through writing and discussion.

Again, I hope it's helpful.

[This message edited by Thumos at 4:49 PM, October 7th (Wednesday)]

I don't agree that the above is on the same level as rape or assault but that's my opinion. Others see it differently. That's ok. So what do we gain from pushing the cheating as abuse mantra? How does that help new BS's here?

How does that help the waywards?

This site was created by both BS and WS to help both sides.

Not all WS are here. I would say a minority of WS are here compared to BS.

Not all WS deserve to be called WS. I never call my ex a WS. Just an ex. She left me and got what she wanted.

This is General. There is a whole forum, Reconciliation, for those BS who need the WS treated with kid gloves. You're going to get more of a mix here.

I remember one member here. Think he's still here sometimes. WW cheated in a long marriage and he busted her. Unusual for a woman, seemed it was entirely physical with no emotional component. WW did seemingly everything right in R, although it kind of seemed that she was coached. Nothing you can do about that.

Long marriage, didn't want to lose everything he had built, WW was doing things right, so they stayed together. As far as I know things are going well. But he'd defend his wife on his thread, then rant on other threads. Which makes perfect sense to me too.

R is pass fail. It's ultimately R or D. If R takes 80% of the pain away, is that enough? Maybe. Where does the other 20% go?

But in the case I outlined above, there's no good answer for the BS. You either D, and lose things yourself too, or R, and know that the WS got away with it in some respect. Any BS who is in R, the WS is getting away with it to an extent. No other way around it. My ex knew exactly what she was doing. As in the above case. I do not think many WS don't know what they were doing. They maybe did not think through the hurt or consequences. But they knew what they wanted, and threw away the shackles of marriage and society to greedily grab it.

Whatever word one chooses to use doesnt personally matter to me.

My husband stuck his penis into the vagina of four other woman (that I know of). Can't explain it more clearly than that.

Is that something I'd consider in the same category of abuse as my years of being molested or the rape I experienced in my 20's or the multiple beatings I have received?

Nope.

I dont know of any other place my husband can go and receive honest support and guidance to help him become a better man, husband and father. No other site where I have met and learned as much from former waywards as I have from fellow betrayeds.

I do feel theres a tone that D is being pushed and that if you chose to R than you are accepting the abuse as if it's a continuing event. Those who have successfully R'd wouldnt agree.

I understand that many members here would find it more honest and satisfying to see the Wayward Side labeled the "Cheater Forum" or "Abuser Forum," and I've encountered more than one BS here who would like to see it eliminated altogether. I get why, I do. But for those of us reformed WS who are trying to get new arrivals to listen to us, "Wayward" is a useful term. How likely is a freshly caught WS to click on the "Cheater Forum" and trust the advice there? In an ideal world, they'd see the justice of it, but in an ideal world, they wouldn't have cheated in the first place. My personal priority is to get their ear and have an opportunity to impact their potential growth. I can bear up under people calling me a cheater and an abuser now, but when I was trying to face myself in the earliest stages, that would have made me run for the hills.

I do understand this BSR and thanks for pointing it out and continuing to contribute to the thread.

I think it's healthy to have the wayward forums from my personal standpoint and have no desire to see it go away. I'm far less triggered by reading there than I used to be and find it enlightening, eye opening and occasionally hope-inducing.

I do see your point about not alienating new WS's who make the decision to come here and seek to take accountability and be proactive.

At the same time, I will also admit I struggle with the idea of treating WS's as some sort of shy woodland creature that needs to be coaxed into accountability and responsibility. I'm not saying you're saying that, it's just the image that comes to mind when ever I hear (or even use the term myself here on SI) "wayward"

As many have pointed out, it was actively planned. However, my FWS wanted to believe this "just happened" with a coalescence of random events that she had no control over, she herself was trying to buy into, and sell, this version.

Why? Because the alternative, the true version, which was "A guy I don't know hit on me, and offered me a beer, so I drank a couple with him, then met him in a parking lot for sex, and then when I'd arranged for you to be watching the kids so we could fuck at his workplace after it closed, yada, yada, yada...so that when we got caught it would destroy both our marriages, break up our homes, lead to both families being gutted, and the kids going through Hell, just like my parents marriage and my childhood was" was just to terrible to countenance in her mind.

Yes, my WW tried this as well and I suspect it's rather common unfortunately. She tried "it was just a mistake" and "it just happened." Both of them.

When I really started to pin her down on the one instance of unprotected sex in our home that I know about (while I was out of town) and the circumstances around it and the timing and setting etc., it became increasingly difficult for her to defend this position. But she held to it for a very long time.

Too long.

I prefer wayward.

way·ward

/ˈwāwərd/

Learn to pronounce

adjective

adjective: wayward

difficult to control or predict because of unusual or perverse behavior.

following one's own capricious, wanton, or depraved inclinations : ungovernable a wayward child. 2 : following no clear principle or law : unpredictable. 3 : opposite to what is desired or expected : untoward wayward fate.

My husband cheated. Past tense. He hasnt had extra marital sexual relations with another woman for many years. He has not engaged in an emotional affair with anyone since ow2, looking at ten years on that one.

Yet his behaviour is still wayward. He does things that are not desirable within our marriage, according to the boundaries (law) I set after his PA's. He still wants to enjoy the go kibbles of other woman or at least enjoy some sort of satisfaction from 'looking elsewhere' instead of looking at what's lacking within himself.

So hes not cheating or engaged in an affair but hes still acting in a way that's not good for the marriage.

I wonder whether premeditated fraud as a comparison: yes, the fraudster is motivated primarily by greed rather than by intent to harm & thereby abuse the victim, but surely the fraudster knows he or she is harming & thereby abusing the victim. Similarly, the cheater is motivated primarily by attraction, infatuation & lust, but she/he is also fundamentally aware that she/he is about to harm & thereby abuse the spouse. So is there a real difference, or is it a distinction without a difference?

GuyinPain, thank you for this. I think this is another excellent analogy. Metaphorical thinking is in my view one of the best and most creative tools in our toolbox for dealing with trauma.

For example, I've long used the analogy of being a betrayed spouse as like the experience of "Rocket Man" in Elton John's song (in fact, this is actually the experience of liminality which is part and parcel to the betrayed spouse trajectory toward healing).

Your analogy is spot on, I think, and definitely teases out the aspect of intentionality that has been debated somewhat here.

The term " wayward" seems pretty vague to me. Try telling someone you got divorced because your spouse was wayward. I doubt many people would think cheating.

My XW once tried to get me to refer to the period of time when she was cheating( although who knows when it started?) as " her restless period". Actually " the restless period", as that even further distanced her from what she had done.

It was so absurd, just like when she said she had" inappropriate relationships where ""the chemistry became sexualized". Thought she had channeled Esther Perel or something.

My XW once tried to get me to refer to the period of time when she was cheating( although who knows when it started?) as " her restless period". Actually " the restless period", as that even further distanced her from what she had done.

It was so absurd, just like when she said she had" inappropriate relationships where ""the chemistry became sexualized".

That's actually pretty hilarious. Like an SNL skit or something. Hope you can look back on it and laugh a little bit.

"The restless period" - Oy ve

Its like Will Smith's wife (?) Used the word entanglement. Ya that's a bit light on what she actually did.

I was once asked why I dont wear my wedding ring. I replied that I didnt appreciate my husband fucking other woman. Frank. Point made. Lol

My 2 cents, which isn't worth much but thought I would give my thoughts on the matter, and an fyi, I didn't read all the comments, actually only some.

There are certainly different forms of abuse. Physical, emotional etc. All abuse, regardless of the type causes trauma to the one being abused. Infidelity is abuse, it does cause trauma. The type of abuse really doesn't matter, it causes trauma that needs to be healed. Figuring out the name to give it doesn't matter in the end. The person abused/traumatized needs to be able to heal from it in whatever way works for them.

I have read on this forum, quite a few victims of rape-including gang rape who have said the infidelity was worse. Those of us who have been sexually abused, usually agree, that the infidelity is worse. From my perspective and many others I have read on here, the reason for feeling the infidelity is worse is because we chose to be with the cheater, we chose them and it makes us question our judgement.

The terms used for either abuse or trauma is just semantics IMHO. Its trauma. The extent of the trauma is individual.

I was once asked why I dont wear my wedding ring. I replied that I didnt appreciate my husband fucking other woman. Frank. Point made. Lol

Excellent. Good for you. I haven't been wearing my ring for the past year. I have been waiting for someone to ask. Not sure what I'll say but I want to avoid sugarcoating.