SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Buck,

He doesn't have to understand why she did it in order to acknowledge she has pain, see her inner turmoil, and understand that she is hurting too. Acknowledging (empathizing) leaves him zero obligation to give a damn about even trying to understand her whys.

Thank you so much for this thread. I’m finding it quite triggering, so I’ll need to go away and have a think, but a few things have jumped out at me.

By being able to actually label the infidelity as abuse, I found a whole new path to healing. I certainly don’t labour over that as a distraction from healing. I was a victim. Now I am a survivor. I can be both at the same time.

Someone recommended a podcast with Omar Minwalla and it helped join the dots for me. His work describes how sex addiction runs in tandem with ‘an integrity and conduct disorder with associated dynamics of perpetration, violation and abuse of others, such as patterns of lying, deceptive tactics, victim blaming and covert psychological manipulation’. It’s the Compulsive-Abusive Sexual-Relational Disorder if anyone wants to look it up. My fwh confessed to using gaslighting and other tactics on purpose to keep me from standing up to him. It was deliberate. He had been emotionally abusive in our m before the A. In the A he upped this behaviour. The idea that although his behaviour was abusive it wasn’t abuse makes me feel physically sick. I know what I survived. Labelling it for what it is has helped set me free. This thread has helped validate my feelings in a positive way, even if I am triggered. Thank you again for all the thoughtful responses. This forum opened the door to healing for me.

Buck,

He doesn't have to understand why she did it in order to acknowledge she has pain, see her inner turmoil, and understand that she is hurting too. Acknowledging (empathizing) leaves him zero obligation to give a damn about even trying to understand her whys.

Isn't that sympathy? Maybe I need to google the definition, but isn't empathy understanding someone else's feelings by feeling the same thing they are feeling? Wouldn't that mean understanding how the WS came to the conclusion that an A was a worthwhile endeavor?

Isn't sympathy, which I take to be understanding why someone is feeling what they are feeling and possibly feeling "bad" for them, more along the lines of what you're describing?

Buck,

Consider it like this:

Empathy: Yeah, I see you're in pain. I can recognize that you're hurting. I feel you, it sucks.

Sympathy: Yeah, I see you're in pain. I can recognize that you're hurting. I feel you, it sucks, and I totally understand WHY.

Compassion: Yeah, I see you're in pain. I can recognize that you're hurting. I feel you, it sucks. Now I feel driven to help you through the pain.

Empathy without sympathy or compassion in an example from BS to WS:

BS: Yeah, I see you're in pain. I can recognize that you're hurting. I feel you, it sucks. HOWEVER, you CHOSE to try to alleviate that pain that you have through callously abusing me in attempt to numb your pain. I don't understand WHY you chose to hurt me to make yourself feel better, and I don't give a damn why you did it. I also see that now that you've done it (been caught), your own callously abusive actions have caused yourself to be in even more pain. No, I have no desire to help you through the pain you are in. Why should I? You hurt, I see it, I get it, I hurt too, it sucks, and as far as I'm concerned you need to figure out how to fix your damn self.

[This message edited by Lostgirl410 at 11:49 AM, October 9th (Friday)]

Yeah, I can certainly understand intellectually why my wife cheated: she wanted to, is a narcissist and does not give a shit about me or her kids. But, empathizing with her? Feeling the same type of feelings? Maybe if I cut out my conscience and focus only on my own desires I could feel the way she does. Other than that, no, I cannot empathize nor can I with anyone who has behaved like this.

Feeling as they do would be frightening. But, yes, I understand that some people are like this.

WS are extremely comfortable with long term lying, not white lies, but big time dishonesty. While lying, they function normally, sleeping alright, working, pretending to care about you. I could never feel this level of comfort with the behavior of a W S. But, i get that they do.

A current running theme I've seen over 6 years of watching threads here is...

1. I can't understand why or how they would do this

2. In order to understand their whys, you must be able to empathize their situation

3. I won't/can't empathize with them because that would somehow validate their actions, and I will not allow that to happen.

Item 3 contains the logical fallacy, which I find gets in the way of understanding and healing, R or D.

For me, item 3 is "It is dangerous for me to empathize with them because doing so puts me at risk of being used and abused again."

If I didn't put my XWH into a category labeled "dangerous" and shut my feelings off in his direction, I'd be taken advantage of and my healing would have been crippled.

Yes, I have the capacity to sit and feel for the things that my XWH went through that helped form him into the things he does today.

I have the capacity to read a novel about a serial killer and understand what makes him enjoy killing too.

What good does empathy for either of those things do me unless I'm using it for entertainment (the novel) or conducting a research project on why people become serial cheaters and addicts?

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 11:54 AM, October 9th (Friday)]

Why do we need to understand and empathize with the "whys"? Do I need to know why a romantic partner hits me? No. Why do I need to know why my husband slept with a plethora of prostitutes behind my back? The reality of what he did is sufficient to make decisions that benefitted my sanity.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 12:01 PM, October 9th (Friday)]

HOP, you understand why your wife chose to have an A? Her choices and actions make sense to you?

Yup

The pull of it. The lack of boundaries. The specialness offered by a "friend". The sense that "I'm a good person, and good people don't do bad things". Etc.

Seen it a million times now in other military families too. I can have empathy with her emotional state.

Her actions "make sense" in that she went down a well-worn path, as timeless as probably back in Sparta. Nothing new under the sun.

I can understand without agreeing.

DevastatedDee

You don't. I don't believe anyone was saying they thought you (or any BS) needed to do any of those things you just listed.

DD

Why do we need to understand and empathize with the "whys"?

I agree with Lostgirl, you don't. But you see threads on this all the time here.

My only fear for you Thumos, FWIW is that you still sleep with her. (Though I did see you were trying to curb that). I fear it could lead you to question your moral convictions (because they really are that strong), and leave you open to further manipulation. I think you know your WW believes you won't actually leave if you're getting regularly satisfied in the bedroom. She may deny it, but she's a proven liar and you've gotten pretty damn good at seeing through her lies to her true intentions. When you finally walk away, if you're still sleeping with her, she will weaponize that against your moral compass. She will do her best to make you feel as though you are on the moral low ground, a user, and since you already know deep down she has that hope...I think it really will eat away at your conscience in the end. You have come SO FAR in seeing through her abusive actions, that I would hate to see you ever question yourself.

This is a really incisive set of observations and thank you for surfacing it. Hikingout has had the same concerns. I have the same concerns too. I'm definitely trying to disentangle, but I did get sucked back in.

Sucked in as in I'm thinking "hey maybe we can be good friends who sleep with one another until we don't."

But I know she doesn't see it that way.

I'm not going to sit here and try to deny it, it's a weak link for me.

What's that great line from St. Augustine?

"Lord, give me chastity and self-control ... but not yet."

I'm trying to figure out the best way of handling it. Recently as I've shared I have tried to curtail it, but without much success. She certainly isn't doing anything to curtail it. A refusal would have to come from me.

I know this probably sounds kind of stupid, but I'm afraid of hurting her by cutting off the sex.

The HB for us has been fairly consistent the past four years, but for me it does always come with a set of "barriers" like mind movies (not as bad as they used to be) and a strong feeling that I'm not giving myself fully to her at all and probably never will. I also feel a slight edge of "sullying myself" in the act even when I find it enjoyable.

I know I'm not alone in struggling with this set of feelings.

When I've broached it before in terms of backing off, the hurt on her face is real.

As I said earlier in this thread, the impact of adultery is among the thorniest and most complex set of problems any of us will ever deal with in our lives.

[This message edited by Thumos at 12:59 PM, October 9th (Friday)]

By being able to actually label the infidelity as abuse, I found a whole new path to healing. I certainly don’t labour over that as a distraction from healing. I was a victim. Now I am a survivor. I can be both at the same time.

You have no idea how encouraging it is for me to read this right as we go into the weekend. I am honored to have been able to help people out, and I'm in tears reading this.

I worried about whether I was helping by starting this thread, but felt compelled to do this.

Thanks again. Your path to healing is spot on.

Thumos

Recently as I've shared I have tried to curtail it, but without much success.

Whew! That, my friend, is one tangled web.

As long as you are pondering, here is an interesting exercise, since you emphasized the importance of words and language.

Can you think about all of it with ZERO use of language? No internal dialog of words at all? Just...thought?

And this isn't playing a mind movie either. It is just thinking before language. Imagine if you couldn't speak a language.

It's extraordinarily hard to do! Thinking about anything without language. But if the choice of language has such an impact on understanding it, does language in fact get in the way of real understanding?

Enjoy your weekend, Thumos. Thanks for starting the thread.

I think language can obscure, for sure (and that rhymes). Or deceive (which is why Orwell wrote what he wrote.

This is an interesting exercise and I will try it.

However, I think we must have invented language in the first place in order to apprehend more and more subtle layers of reality and in order to communicate out increasingly complex thought patterns.

Sucked in as in I'm thinking "hey maybe we can be good friends who sleep with one another until we don't."

But I know she doesn't see it that way.

That's a lot of internal heaviness to sift through.

I know this probably sounds kind of stupid, but I'm afraid of hurting her by cutting off the sex.

When I've broached it before in terms of backing off, the hurt on her face is real.

This is a testament that there really is still at least some compassion for her inside you. Unfortunately, it seems she may understand that as well, and is (maybe not even consciously) using it to continue to try and control the outcome.

Potential thought process in her mind: "Well, he says he wants a divorce, but I can see clearly he doesn't like to see me hurting...and he's still sleeping with me, so maybe he won't follow through after all. Hmm...maybe if I keep the sex coming intense and often, then I can still keep him without having to take that dive into fully owning my shit. I mean...his actions aren't that of someone with one foot out the door. If I can keep this up, the worst of my shitty shit just might be able to stay my secret I take to the grave, while I keep him too. Yes! That's it! I just have to keep him wanting me. That's all I need to do to get what I want. Sure, I'll listen and pretend to understand his words. Then I'll make sure I'm giving him just enough to make him not fully act on those words."

Does that make sense? In the way that knowing you hate to see her hurt could still be enabling her to not own her shit? It's a way of continuing to manipulate you through your own compassion for her, just using your primal urges to help her in her game. Sex as a weapon.

Now, she knows you've flat told her it doesn't mean you're staying married. She also knows she's desperate, and that you're the one with the stronger conscience. While you would be under no obligation to feel any guilt (you laid it all out there clearly), you probably would feel guilty in the end anyway. It's part of what makes you the man you are, it's extremely honorable, and the way she's continuing to exploit your honor is kind of nauseating. You deserve so much more, and that she can't see it after everything that's happened is pretty flipping obnoxious.

Actually that makes perfect sense and the way you’ve laid out her thought process makes sense as well (altho neither of us are in her head). But the fact that you yourself are a woman makes me think you’ve got some insight here I don’t.

It fits her pattern. The odds that there’s a “big ugly” she’s unwilling to admit after the destroyed evidence and the failed polygraph seems much higher to me (and to just about everyone on SI) than not.

maybe if I keep the sex coming intense and often, then I can still keep him without having to take that dive into fully owning my shit.

This gives me a lot to think about because it does seem that’s what she’s doing.

I hadn’t thought about the aspect of it keeping her from really digging deep, figuring out her whys etc. But I think you’re right. I’m not doing her any favors.

This is a testament that there really is still at least some compassion for her inside you. Unfortunately, it seems she may understand that as well, and is (maybe not even consciously) using it to continue to try and control the outcome.

If I had 10 cents for every BS and WS dynamic that fit this pattern here on SI, I'd be a billionaire. If BS have a fault: too much compassion for their WS. If WS have a fault: they know it and use it.

Good observation, OIN.

The remorse is present till R is on the table.

Once R is refused, it is funny how fast it disappears. I have not seen ws offering 80% of assets, primary custody etc.

WS need a "good by" date commitment from the bs in a R. Awesome. A deadline for forgetting abuse.

[This message edited by btdi at 7:02 AM, October 10th (Saturday)]

** Posting as a member **

the most commonly accepted definition of adultery is:

'Adultery' is a legal term. Part of the human situation is that we have divided ourselves into jurisdictions, and there's wide variation in laws from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, including WRT the definitions of 'adultery'. Some of our WSes did not commit adultery in the eyes of the laws of our jurisdictions.

You want to use the term 'adultery' because it's meaningful to you. You accuse people who find the term limited of muddy thinking and of trying to blunt the impact of what the WS did.

In doing so, you ignore the pain of many victims of infidelity, a term you consider to be a euphemism. In doing so, you limit your own thinking.

Further, by focusing on thinking, I think you're doing a disservice to us, especially to new members.

Being betrayed affects head, heart, and gut. Thinking primarily uses the head. The problem is that pain - grief, anger, fear, and shame - is not in one's head.

BSes won't heal without facing and accepting their pain. I agree that it's unwise to use language that minimizes the pain. And in insisting on using ‘adultery,’ you’re minimizing the pain many of us feel.

Dealing with the pain requires focusing internally, because that’s how one feels pain. It’s not the pain-inducing agent coming at you that is the problem – it’s the result of the impact. Focusing on what one's WS did does not heal. All it does is keep one focused on being in pain.

If a BS wants to keep the intellectual high ground, the BS can keep looking for authorities who confirm the BS's (changing) beliefs.

If a BS wants to heal and to help others avoid the mistakes the BS made, the best approach, IMO, is to look inside, feel the pain, let it go.

Letting pain go does not absolve one’s WS of anything. All it does is clear out crap that keeps the BS from taking action that can get the BS closer to what they want. All it does it enable the BS to find joy.

In the end, it's probably not so much the words we use that count - it's how we use the words to guide our actions that impact our lives.

I never got much good out of thinking about all the ways of describing the shit that has been dumped on me in my life (not that there's been that much). Just about everything good has come from my coming up with good answers to the question, 'OK ... how am I going to handle this?'

*****

I used to be active in politics. My 2 main issues were, in fact, life/death matters. Emotions were very high.

I could easily empathize with people who had views that opposed mine. I could understand, at least at some level, their pain and their fears. I could understand how difficult it would be for them to change their minds. Let's face it: if you're brought up thinking X is the right way to do things, one's guts might hurt when one learns that X is, in fact, a lousy way of doing things.

That did not keep me from doing what I could to get my views implemented.

I certainly empathized with my W. Like HOP, I understood the dynamic that led her to cheat. I had and continue to have great sympathy for her.

But that did not absolve her. It didn't mitigate my pain. It didn't make it any easier to heal. I still believe I would have dumped her if she had not worked to heal herself - despite my love for her, despite my lust, despite my sympathy, despite my empathy.

I haven't read the book, but it's possible that what the Mitchells call 'empathy' is what others call 'co-dependence.' It's probable that, when they write of excessive empathy, they mean co-dependence.

[This message edited by sisoon at 2:03 PM, October 10th (Saturday)]