SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I have read on this forum, quite a few victims of rape-including gang rape who have said the infidelity was worse. Those of us who have been sexually abused, usually agree, that the infidelity is worse. From my perspective and many others I have read on here, the reason for feeling the infidelity is worse is because we chose to be with the cheater, we chose them and it makes us question our judgement.

After reading the "Cheating In a Nutshell" I have some better insight into why people may feel this way. The authors discuss trauma and they discuss trauma caused by different events, with essentially concentric rings getting ever closer to the individual.

For example, the 2004 tsunami caused trauma for survivors, but they understood this was a natural disaster.

However, as the concentric rings of man-made disasters get ever closer to you, the trauma becomes more intense.

The most intense, obviously, is a man-made disaster that targets you from the very person you elected to trust above all others on the planet.

I was date raped. A long time family friend whom i had had an crush on and had known my whole life.

Never in a million years think he wouldn't take No for an answer and be as aggressive as he was.

But again I'd take being cheated on over that in a heartbeat. Funny how we are all different.

My husband cheated. Past tense. He hasnt had extra marital sexual relations with another woman for many years. He has not engaged in an emotional affair with anyone since ow2, looking at ten years on that one.

I know I've mentioned "Cheating in a Nutshell" several times on this thread, but it is chock full of insights and is on my mind since I just finished it last night.

The authors make an interesting point about the past. They cite a letter from one woman (a betrayed wife) who notes that a marriage counselor told her the affairs were in the past. The woman reacts by saying "the problem of the past is that one second later everything is in the past." And "Because something happened before and is not happening now is not a good reason to think it will not happen again."

They also note research indicating that traumatic bad memories tend to retain crystal clarity in your brain as a warning signal, while good memories grow fuzzier and distant.

Traumatic man-made deliberately personal events "in the past" remain a fundamental attack on your personhood, despite our Herculean efforts to work around them.

And trauma experts cite the ability to recover from traumatic events to the source of the shock itself (in other words, your unfaithful spouse) and being able to remove yourself from that source.

Anyway, food for thought.

Good points.

I guess theres a degree of healing that's taken place for me when I say In The Past.

I cannot remain in the same state I was in on dday. I am no longer filled with rage or revenge, I can say the APs names I can go to where the affairs happened and triggers are fewer than before.

I am responsible for my own healing. Yes I experienced trauma but I went through triage, got set up with the right help amd am working to get totally healed up. Theres no point taking up room in the ER when I should be in the rehabilitation centre.

Also I no longer see smy WH as a constant source of trauma in the same was as I did on dday. The issues now are more akin to a bad cold than a broken bone.

I'm stepping out for now. My wh wants to have some time to discuss things and wants my full attention

[This message edited by DragnHeart at 6:11 PM, October 7th (Wednesday)]

Its like Will Smith's wife (?) Used the word entanglement. Ya that's a bit light on what she actually did.

I remember this. Laughed out loud for real.

I laugh at a lot of the stuff she said/says, Thumos. You want new age word salad, she is your source. Lately, she has been greeting me with" Namaste". She is pretty highly evolved, you know. Obviously a very old soul.

"Cheating in a Nutshell" is the best book I've read that articulated what I felt from the LTA of my XWW. I noted that in the Book forum. I don't often go to that forum or many others here on SI unless something in the Forums page catches my eye. It's the best book I've read and I've read or partially red a lot of them.

I've used information I've gleaned from the book on posts I've made on different threads. I bought the book months ago, perhaps even longer, based on a recommendation a poster made either on their thread or another. I continue to recommend it here and elsewhere.

Dirty things need harsh descriptive titles. I take offence to "affair". Too many positive connotations. I use adultery. Adultery covers unfaithfulness. It covers any lewd or unchaste act. To adulterate means, among other things, to corrupt and debase.

I think adultery is a very appropriate word to cover "cheating" in marital relations.

I think to sugarcoat the actions of an adulterous spouse and the results does a disservice to a betrayed spouse. It's ugly. It is what it is. This is what you (BS) are dealing with. It isn't a temporary deviation from expected behaviour. It's possible to R from it and acceptable to D. But you need to know just what you are trying to R from.

Your initial post, Thumos, was well thought out and articulated (I say again). I think it should be in a permanent posting. Adultery and the actions and behaviours surrounding it are abuse.

I like the term wayward as no one is beyond redemption. Those who come here to find out how they can help someone else should be welcome and opinions heard as all opinions.

I do not see it ax abuse as that would have given her power and made me a victim. It hurts to be cheated on but I am a survivor.

You can only abuse someone weaker than you.

I laugh at a lot of the stuff she said/says, Thumos. You want new age word salad, she is your source. Lately, she has been greeting me with" Namaste". She is pretty highly evolved, you know. Obviously a very old soul.

😂 Oh dear lord. As a former Buddhist, I wonder how many people walking around saying “namaste” are just tremendous assholes. Probably a lot. At least as many as those doing the sign of the Cross and hoping God won’t notice. Or saying “Jesus take the wheel” to reference a class A recent narcissist.

Spoiler alert: He notices.

At the same time, I will also admit I struggle with the idea of treating WS's as some sort of shy woodland creature that needs to be coaxed into accountability and responsibility. I'm not saying you're saying that, it's just the image that comes to mind when ever I hear (or even use the term myself here on SI) "wayward"

Well simply put there are a lot of bs who come here with hopes to R. The best hope one could have is that the ws does the work. A big hurdle for most ws is shame. It keeps us stuck with no possible progression. It keeps us from helping the way we should. Waywards are not shy woodland creatures. We are dysfunctional people. But for every ws who stays, who we help, somewhere there is a BS who is benefitting from that.

As BSR said we general get to a point where whatever words you want to use don’t bother us. I could care less about the differences. But once again, you don’t typically get people to listen by shaming them especially when they are swimming in it. I personally do feel affair is a better word than committed adultry. I don’t care if you call me a cheater, I earned those things. But at the end of the day I think the bs who are usually most intent on the ws of this site being called certain things or whatever is only due to the lack of accountability their own spouse has shown.

I believe if your spouse said I abused you. Admitted The truth in its entirety, took full accountability and acknowledged your pain deeply - you would not need this site to be different. Maybe not immediately but eventually. In time the divorce will be in the rear view and I think them you wouldn’t need the site to be different either. The people

Here do not need to be reminded how bad it all is or using the harshest words one can find. I know exactly how bad it was and how much damage I created. It’s probably the ones who aren’t here? Just food for thought.

[This message edited by hikingout at 10:42 PM, October 7th (Wednesday)]

Hikingout, It’s a good point overall and I’m not saying I disagree. But I think it’s healthy for us to have a probing discussion on the vocabulary. Words matter, and ideas matter.

I think laying it at the feet of my own pain is less helpful, because what BS here isn’t in tremendous pain dealing with massive trauma? Of course I’m processing that but that’s true of about 99 percent of those here and this has been a fairly intellectually rigorous thread.

It’s edging up to the genetic fallacy to say I’m concerned about this just because I’m getting divorced or because my WW has been less than ideal as a candidate for R. Again, how many here could probably say that?

Incidentally, I can think of a lot harsher words to use than “adultery” or “cheater” “committed adultery” — and I’m sure you can as well. I pretty much assiduously avoid those other terms intentionally, both in my quotidian life and here on SI. I mostly focus on being kind and that includes with my WW in spite of my anger over her actions (and now I realize my anger is quite healthy and actually a virtue - thanks Aristotle!)

I don’t find the word “adultery” harsh as much as I find it bracing. I find the bracing quality to be a good thing and I think it’s interesting it has that effect because to me it suggests other terms have lulled the mind into at least come level of complacency.

As BSR said we general get to a point where whatever words you want to use don’t bother us. I could care less about the differences. But once again, you don’t typically get people to listen by shaming them especially when they are swimming in it.

Well, and I think both of us went through a phase, about a year in, where we were seriously considering leaving SI because we weren't sure it was healthy to keep reading some of the commentary here. That was a view shared by both our BHs, IIRC.

Ultimately, WS here have a responsibility to be completely open, accountable and remorseful towards one person: their own BS. Our role in other betrayed members' healing gets very complicated very quickly. We're symbols of hope, we're terrible triggers, we're sources of insight, we're targets for venting. That's a lot to handle on top of meeting our own spouse's needs and doing our own work. The same terms that offer validation to a BS can drain the resolve of a new WS, and that hurts both members of a couple if they're working for R.

It's not a zero sum game by any means, but I do think that if one mission of SI is to encourage cheating spouses to reform themselves, the official language the site uses is a significant factor in accomplishing that goal.

We're symbols of hope, we're terrible triggers, we're sources of insight, we're targets for venting.

Well from this BW I want to sincerely thank you and hiking and all the WS who have remained here to help, bs and ws alike!!!

It's not a zero sum game by any means, but I do think that if one mission of SI is to encourage cheating spouses to reform themselves, the official language the site uses is a significant factor in accomplishing that goal.

My wh was here for a while but I believe he got scared off more than anything. Facing his own demons and actions was hard enough without feeling like he was being trampled.

Hes back here reading. We had an amazing open honest discussion last night. Something we habent had in a long time. Hes strugglongnwith some things and I can only give him advice based on my perspective which really isnt helpful. My hope is that hes able to reach out here. One thing I've said is its probably best for him to stay in the wayward forum for now.

[This message edited by DragnHeart at 9:06 AM, October 8th (Thursday)]

Thumos,

I was not trying to lay it at the feet of your own pain. I said most bs’s who are intent to make this place more uncomfortable and blunt to the ws here are doing so out of their own lack of healing. That’s not a shaming thing, it’s just a natural truth.

Just likeBSR said there was a period in time this site was almost unbearable for me. I was so deep in my own shame and It was self flagellation that kept me here.I do understand this site is not about me or even waywards in general. But my whole point is we can either punish them or we can help hem but we can’t do both.

Committing adultery truly caused me more pain than anything I have ever done in my life. I do not compare it to bs pain because it is as done on my own fruition. My h was innocent and my abuse was not only traumatizing it changed the full course of our lives for years and for years to come. There is an assumption though this is not painful enough for the ws on this site. I think that does lie at the perspective of the poster. Your wife is not remorseful, it’s no wonder you want us to use the harshest language possible. I don’t question it. But realize that more people stay married than don’t. If their ws can get it then they have a chance of not just staying married But maybe actually reconciling. So it’s again really for the greater good.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:52 AM, October 8th (Thursday)]

I still think adultery is abuse it doesn't mean that the WS stays an abuser it just means that the act of betrayal is abusive to the betrayed at the time. If they continue acting wayward they are still abusive. Obviously the ones who have done the work I wouldn't deem abusive. I do believe people can redeem themselves.

A person who hits their spouse is abusive and if they get help and never lay a hand on their spouse again they are no longer abusive.

When I read of WS pain, I always think " yeah, but it is offset by all the fun excitement and pleasure they derived from cheating." And, when feeling down, they can always harken back to those wonderful times they had. IOW, I do not have much sympathy.

I do believe people can redeem themselves.

I also agree. Takes a lot of inner work on the part of the WS that far too often seems to be hampered by the same toxic neuroses that enabled the adultery to take place.

I get the feeling some on here may have the impression I feel my own WW is irredeemable. I hope I haven't given that impression, but if I have let me set the record straight:

My WW has done many, many things to show me the kind of wife she wants to be going forward from DDAY. These are meaningful and real. They are consistent. They can't be discounted. I also love her -- not in the same way I did before DDAY, but certainly I do. Again, completely normal and expected, but we can't get confused about this love as being a driving force for R. We have to go deeper.

I feel that very often people do get these things confused and muddled, and that's why the clearest language possible is so important in my view.

With respect to my WW, I have countervailing winds pushing against R: many things she simply refused to do, or did late in the game, or only did with a significant amount of unnecessary and painful drama and downright disrespect. She also said many boneheaded and really cruel things after D-DAY that have shocked the readers here on SI when I've shared them out. She held fast to some of these statements for at least awhile.

In addition, the very actions and deeds during the affair were of a compound nature indicating disrespect and intentionality: in my home, with a friend of mine (a double betrayal), wrapping my kids up in the affair in different ways, playing house while I was out of town in the form of dinners, one convo I recorded on VAR in which she chuckled about the sex and indicated she didn't care whether I found out and commiserated about how they were both married to "such assholes."

Finally, I have the significant levels of gaslighting that took place, which most here on SI seem to have a consensus were of a particularly toxic nature: separating from me, convincing me I'd falsely accused her, trying to get me to see a psychiatrist for "unfounded" paranoia and even encouraging the notion I needed to be on an SSRI (I didn't and have not been).

Recently my WW tried to defend this gaslighting by saying "Oh, I knew you wouldn't ACTUALLY go see a psychiatrist." This indicates maybe not so much a lack of remorse as it does continued wayward thinking. She's still telling herself deeply false narratives. And perhaps most interestingly, it indicates the level of INTENTIONALITY that went into this gaslighting. She conceived it as a strategy, weighed it, thought about the ramifications and plowed forward with it.

EDIT TO ADD: The more I think about it there are actually some pretty astonishing revelations in this recent statement of hers, and again this is why I think it's so important to see adultery for what it is and for us to use clear language -- because it helps us process and really think about these things with concision and clarity. Here are three revelations from my WW recently saying "I didn't think you would ACTUALLY see a psychiatrist."

1. It reflects equivocation is a part of her worldview still to this very day. I think Chamomile Tea has observed elsewhere that WS's have a deficient toolkit that allows them to see infidelity. as a possibility in their lives. This type of moral equivocation by my WW is one example of a tool in the toolbox of a wayward. She told herself "no harm, no foul if I say this to him because it's not really going to happen.

2. It reflects the regret vs. remorse conundrum. A WS who had truly wrestled with their inner character would not still be exhibiting this level of defensiveness, justification and rationalization.

3. It reflects, as I said above intentionality. She thought about the potential harm to me, dismissed it, and went forward with the gambit anyway.

In any case, I told her this was really no different than her contention she *knew* her AP didn't have an STD, so no harm no foul. I could see in this discussion that I really wasn't getting through to her core beliefs -- and it just further affirmed for me I'm on the right path toward D, even as painful as I already know that will be.

Earlier this year, my body made the decision for me (kind of in the way that the writers of "Cheating In A Nutshell" outline so clearly). My body said, "nope, we're not doing this anymore." I really had to start listening to my body and start thinking more clearly.

That's where I've found epiphanies like the OP that started this thread so useful.

When I framed it that way, it made so much more sense as to why the severe trauma of adultery would land me in a cardiologist's office.

I hope this clarifies a bit of my thought process on this thread.

As far as hikingout's observations, I do think you basically drifted unfortunately into the genetic fallacy. Rather than grappling with the substance of the argument itself, you seem wrapped around the axles of whether a "lack of healing" drives some BS's to make this place uncomfortable.

I don't think that's what I'm doing at all. So we'll just have to disagree.

The affirmations I've seen here on this thread mostly indicate to me that I'm on to something rather compelling and profound that seems to resonate with a great many BS's.

I'm not trying to "make" SI anything. It is what it is. But I have taken it to a be place where people can freely exchange ideas about how to survive infidelity in the best way, and that's very much a subject up for debate,

[This message edited by Thumos at 11:54 AM, October 8th (Thursday)]

...If it doesn't matter, I guess I'm confused as to why there would be an objection to using terms like "unfaithful" and "adultery" or in having something of a "MeToo" moment that truly recognizes the abusive nature of adultery.

I'm good with 'unfaithful,' except it takes a lot of typing. I'm not good with 'adultery.'

It strikes me that perhaps you don't like the term 'adultery' because it still possesses the quality of a cold splash of water.

I've written at least twice that the term 'adultery' doesn't encompass many As, including my W's. I didn't think I needed to say it explicitly, but I guess I do: I don't like the term 'adultery' because it excludes my sitch.

Here's the Jewish definition:

sexual intercourse between a married woman and a man other than her husband [the biblical prohibition does not include sex between a married man and an unmarried woman])....

There are a lot of As that are not adultery, and - again - that's why I don't like the term.

With infidelity, one must - IMO - weigh years of love and support + the possibility of even more years - maybe decades - of love and support against the abuse of an A.

I just don't understand how we can talk about abuse and the possibility of reconciliation.

I urge all BSes to choose the route that they want and think is achievable. I urge every BS to weigh the past, the present and what they think the future will bring with all options that are open. IMO, Bses need to do their own weighing, and BSes have to make their own decision - the one they want, irrespective of what anyone else wants. For the record, if you think I believe R is for everyone, you're wrong.

I agree that As are abusive. I believe people can heal from being abused, because I've seen and experienced healing from abuse. I believe R is possible in many cases. Yes, that may seem paradoxical.

Must we take our cues from the French existentialists though?

Better them than Aquinas and Aristotle, IMO. Maybe aristotle and Aquinas can be read if one also reads with Adam Smith. (Remember, one of the biggest (almost) contemporary boosters of Aristotle was Ayn Rand, a cheater if ever there was one. I don't know if she misread Aristotle, but she certainly misread Smith.)

I'm speaking of understanding that infidelity is abuse, and that accepting and recovering a relationship with a person that has abused you means living with abuse. Some people can do this. Some people cannot. I'm not saying it is right or wrong to stay or go.

Really well said, bro.

In fact, I think it's worth repeating, 'I'm not saying it is right or wrong to stay or go.' I agree. No one I can think of who thinks R is possible says that.

There is a whole forum, Reconciliation, for those BS who need the WS treated with kid gloves.

But WSes get a LOT of flack - both venting and strong criticism - in the R forum.

Sisoon, the most commonly accepted definition of adultery is:

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a·dul·ter·y

noun: adultery; plural noun: adulteries

voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a person who is not his or her spouse.

--------------

You're getting hung up on angels on the head of a pin stuff, when the definition doesn't exclude your experience at all.

What your WW did with another woman was clearly adultery by the most commonly accepted definition.

[This message edited by Thumos at 12:01 PM, October 8th (Thursday)]

Thumos, just wanted to say that your WS put you through the ringer, and I'm glad for you that you have some clarity now. Full speed ahead!

If you want to get your nerd on, your starting of this thread reminded me of this body of work...you can google on the title to get to the paper.

The gist of it is, we're not done at decision time. We then consolidate our choice.

Differentiation and consolidation theory of human decision making: A frame of reference for the study of pre- and post-decision processes

Following a decision, the theory predicts consolidation processes which work in favor of the chosen alternative. Both differentiation and consolidation are driven by the fact that through experience with the impredictability of the future, a decision maker has learned to prepare for threats against the chosen alternatives. The further this alternative has been differentiated and consolidated, the less the risk of post-decision ambiguity, regret or decision reversal.