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Over the weekend I listened to an interview of Stan Tatkin on the Helping Couples Heal podcast. Tatkin has written several books, primarily about attachment. He also does training for IC on something called PACT (psychobiological approach to couples therapy), tho I don't think they spent much (any?) time talking about what that is or how it works. His website describes PACT as "a fusion of attachment theory, developmental neuroscience [the physiological basis for understanding how people act & react within relationships], and arousal regulation [moment-to-moment ability to manage one’s energy, alertness, and readiness to engage] "

One of the "biggies" for me was Tatkin saying (around 53:35 min) that:

The greatest prediction of a successful outcome in any betrayal case is the willingness of the victim [BS] ....to stand their ground. If they do not stand their ground, the prognosis gets poorer and poorer. Everything hinges on [the BS] saying "it's this or goodbye" ... they are unwavering and they are watching to see whether the [WS] is behaving in accordance to these ideas and these terms.... full stop. That changes everything, and that will bring anybody who is a wrongdoer [the WS] to their knees if they care, they don't want to lose the relationship and they will do their work. But everything hinges on [the BS] saying "you do it or you're gone"

Ms. Breecker chimed in, saying that the goal in therapy and in healing is moving the victim to a place of empowerment. That in order to move from being a victim and to become empowered, the BW "must be able to own that power and make their needs known"

Tatkin: "That's what attachment security is about.... otherwise the person can do whatever they want, living in a boundaryless world, which is bad for them [the WS]. We're not supposed to get away with everything."

Other things I picked up on in the interview:

"it's a matter of will. Not anything else. Will. How much do you want this. What are you willing to do to get it."

I tell the WS [who ask] what do I get out of all of this? "You get to be a better person.... that's gonna be your reward here.... you get to be smarter, wiser, more compassionate person... and a much, much happier person"

Anyhow, that first part (BS holding WS accountable) really resonated.... yet as I thought about it, a part of me got a bit resentful, thinking along the lines of: "so you cheat and now I am the one that has to be your fucking parent to 'hold you accountable' and stand my ground" kind of thing. I guess that's my own little personal pity party.

Anyhow, anyone else hear this interview? Read his books? I found it all very fascinating.

yet as I thought about it, a part of me got a bit resentful, thinking along the lines of: "so you cheat and now I am the one that has to be your fucking parent to 'hold you accountable' and stand my ground" kind of thing.

I think holding your partner, and yourself for that matter, accountable is healthy regardless of the infidelity.

For the BS it's part of having healthy boundaries of what behavior is or is not acceptable in respect to their partner.

Plus one for "it's this or goodbye".

The issue is that it this has to be motivated by genuine feelings, with the ability of the BS to actually say goodbye if "this" doesn't happen. If you lay down such an ultimatum, then allow the WS to walk right through it, you don't do anything but set yourself back further. In my case, it wasn't until I was completely set back and defeated that I gave up on the relationship. Only then could my needs be met in a last ditch effort spearheaded by my fWW. It's stupid. It's honestly too common of a path around here. But it is what it is.

It really is a big conundrum, in that most kind hearted people don't want to issue ultimatums and believe they are generally counter productive. Additionally, it's hard to play a power game (if you do just see it as a power move) with someone that is lightyears ahead of you on throwing away your relationship for basically nothing.

I dunno. Maybe it's sour grapes because I'm divorced, but it seems a bit victim blamey. Also I do feel that sometimes the "successful outcome" IS divorce.

I think that divorce absolutely can be a successful outcome. Many people fail to end relationships that they really ought to.

That stuff always hits me wrong because it's often presented like game playing to manipulate someone into giving a shit about hurting you. You have to refuse to let them abuse you, scare them into starting to act right, and then one day maybe they figure out this empathy thing and actually care that they hurt you. Boy, isn't that romantic?

Boundaries are healthy always. Not being a doormat is healthy in any situation. These are positive things. Talking of developing these things as a strategy to save a marriage after infidelity repulses me. Talking of developing them to save yourself from further abuse is different.

Done healthily, you already have boundaries and stand up for yourself. You discover your spouse cheated. You have no time for his/her bullshit and prepare to walk. Whatever basic humanity, clarity and empathy they discover while watching you not accept their lies and gaslighting might be a neat side-effect for them, but ideally it isn't the reason you're standing up for yourself.

I think divorce is always a successful outcome after infidelity. Reconciliation might also be a successful outcome. A great many factors go into that.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 3:29 PM, March 29th (Monday)]

I think the resentment carries for a long time GMC.

yet as I thought about it, a part of me got a bit resentful, thinking along the lines of: "so you cheat and now I am the one that has to be your fucking parent to 'hold you accountable' and stand my ground" kind of thing.

Yep and yep that is part of the sh*t sandwich we get on d-day. But let's see if we can separate out adult boundaries from parenting. I know that separation was very very difficult for me and in fact the more I put down boundaries the more my WS wanted me to be his mother. Talk about resentment! I had to not care. The *gift* he got and the boundaries that were a must were not caring about him more than I care about myself. That's how it stops.

So I suppose I'm trying to say that perhaps it is less about parenting the WS and more about taking care of our own adult needs that turns the tides. If he is looking or a mother he should look elsewhere. (Yeah, wee bit of my resentment still coming out I think. )

[This message edited by ISurvivedSoFar at 3:38 PM, March 29th (Monday)]

ISSF - lol as to the "wee bit"

I suppose you could say I was "thinking out loud" on the resentment. I did not feel ANY resentment when I first heard the podcast, so I found it odd the way those thoughts drifted in over the rest of the weekend.

I "see" that this is boundaries vs parenting.... doesn't mean I like it.

You have to refuse to let them abuse you, scare them into starting to act right, and then one day maybe they figure out this empathy thing and actually care that they hurt you. Boy, isn't that romantic?

And there's another LOL moment, DD!

And you touch on something I've been working on in IC - that murky AF line between ultimatum, boundaries, manipulation, etc., which prompted me to tell WH almost 3 weeks ago that I was ready to file. It just didn't feel good to me to file and spring it on him, but it also felt a bit manipulative to, I guess I'd call it "warn" him (which I know is a "me problem" )

The status quo is "fine". Not happy. Not progress. Yet also not horrific. However, when I think about it, that status of "fine" is only bc of the work I've done for myself and being emotionally detached from all things WRT WH, his As, etc. I don't think he's cheating, but would not be at all surprised if he was. I've had a ton of solid, practical, reasons for not filing for D during the last 3 years. But now they have largely dissipated, there doesn't seem to be ANY reason to stay in an M that requires me to "stand my ground" to a grown ass man. I want a relationship with boundaries, not an emotional gunfight at the OK corral.

[This message edited by gmc94 at 4:38 PM, March 29th, 2021 (Monday)]

I don’t think it’s victim blamey so much, it’s just that some of us - I’m referring to myself here - allowed ourselves to be walked all over for years prior to dday. Everything was about what WH wanted. Vacations, dinner, weekends, sex, etc. My whole world was wrapped up in him. That’s why I was so devastated when dday hit - if I could do all of that and still get cheated on then, then there was something fundamentally wrong with me and I really must not be enough for anyone. It really broke me.

The truth is I should’ve put my foot down years ago and said I want to go here on vacation, I want this for dinner, I want you to do this in bed, etc. I was too scared he wouldn’t love me if i stood up for myself and instead was a doormat and was very unhappy and didn’t even realize it. The only thing I did right after dday was establish that if he ever had contact again we were done. If I find out today he has contact with her, we’re done - I don’t care how great we are today, I will not tolerate that and he knows it. I just wish I would’ve loved and believed in myself more prior to dday.

I also believe a successful outcome can definitely be divorce after infidelity. Real reconciliation is hard and IMO rare. I’m surprised all the time by both how hard it is and that we are both still so invested in making it work.

To gmc94:

Re: your original post.

You and I have had our differences of opinion but I agree with everything you wrote concerning the reference work in your original post. (I am unfamiliar with your reference material, I should state that.)

I have told Husband multiple times that everything I needed to know about the next decades of our marriage happened in the three weeks that surrounded and encompassed his infidelity. All of it. There it was.

Husband was embarrassed enough by his own clay feet re: the sexual infidelity (and the squick factor inherent in it) that (apparently, of course I will never know) he never repeated the sexual infidelity.

But the mindset and the selfish placement of boundaries and the centrality and the overt absence of boundaries that were on parade in that three weeks, before, during and after the infidelity, those paradigms played out over and over and over again over the course of our marriage, in a plethora of situations.

[This message edited by marriageredux959 at 5:31 AM, March 30th (Tuesday)]

In some cases marital love is a mutual emotion between adults who already have good instincts and some level of acceptable maturity . I am not sure how Cheating or R works with these couples but i assume its more carrot less stick .

Some marriages have two children or one child one adult and these Couples can still be in love or heavily attached affectionate bonded , in need of each other etc etc

Whether a couple decides to ultimately D or R imo Boundary setting is critically important when there is one adult one “child “ in the marriage . Even more when both are children .

I do agree that D is typically the best approach but for many people R if done right can be healthy too . Unfortunately its quite possible and not uncommon for the BS to screw up R by not growing up . I entirely agree this super sucks and isnt a fair burden .

[This message edited by siracha at 7:41 PM, March 29th (Monday)]

Ok yes.

The problem is that the BS is usually not ready to do this right away. So the WS gets a period of time where they can run rough shod over the marriage and they will get away with it because the BS is not ready to go.

It's a period of time where the WS is taking advantage of the BS LOYALTY!

It makes me angrier to think about this.

The problem is that the BS is usually not ready to do this right away. So the WS gets a period of time where they can run rough shod over the marriage and they will get away with it because the BS is not ready to go.

Quite true. It takes a bit before the BS is able to actually eat food and sleep again, much less do anything at all rational with regards to whatever they discovered their marriage had been reduced to.

Yes! The bizarre lack of empathy and emotional abuse in that time during R before the BS is able to stabilize still astounds me. In my own case but more so, in the hundreds of cases I have read here and elsewhere!

I have a friend who appears to have R successfully and I believe it is based on this idea Stan Tatkin brought up. Her cheater knows she would bring the wrath of centuries down on him if he is ever caught again. Her cheating boundaries are solid. Other ones, not so much. He still disrespects her, just enough to get away with it until she lashes back out. She puts up with that and it works for her. I am just too low key for that kind of an existence and would be miserable.

Of course D is sometimes the only successful outcome for a BS. Remember: SI is about surviving and thriving, not about D or R.

...so you cheat and now I am the one that has to be your fucking parent to 'hold you accountable' and stand my ground" kind of thing.

I think that's common. In any case, I went through it, too. My W failed. As a result, I have to do painful work? How is that fair? I'm angry about that, too, and my W was a lot easier to deal with than your H was, gmc. I trust you don't think you did, thought, or felt anything wrong in feeling that anger..

Standing one's ground - finding and maintaining the right boundaries - is hard work, but we have to do it in all relationships. That's not fair. People should understand other people's boundaries by reading non-verbal comms, and we all should honor other people's boundaries.

That's not how people operate, however. Sometimes, non-verbals aren't complete; we can't read each other's minds. What's OK for some people is not OK for others, and that can be OK for all concerned.

I agree with the podcast. I have not done a study of SI, but I expect the BSes who thrive are the BSes who demand change from their WSes. It's not controlling. The WS has a free choice to comply or not. Compliance (not over-compliance) leads to R; non-compliance leads to D. Both are good ways of getting out of infidelity.

Setting observable boundaries is not becoming the WS's parent. It's not a matter of seeing what the WS does and judging. Rather, it's the BS seeing what the WS does, looking inside and deciding how the BS wants to respond, and responding based on what the BS wants to do. That's a big difference in practice, although it might sound subtle.

Thanks for sharing this podcast, gmc.

[This message edited by sisoon at 9:46 AM, March 30th (Tuesday)]

Oh this...

I expect the BSes who thrive are the BSes who demand change from their WSes. It's not controlling. The WS has a free choice to comply or not.

I think much of this is timing. How long does it take for the BS to get to this point and how long does the WS take to respond accordingly.

Mostly I believe a BS can thrive if they too are willing to do a lot of work. As we know it goes beyond the reaction to d-day. And thus the resentment because we are thrust into this arduous process. Rug sweeping is just a recipe for prolonged pain but it is where we often go to.

One of the best things ive read on SI is the concept that the cheater always has a head start . On DD the betrayed has no idea what planet they are on , meanwhile the cheater has spent months or years creating favorable terrain for themselves . Most WS use this natural advantage to fk up the marriage even further through lies manipulation and general crazy. . I dont think its always malice that makes them do this. I think we can all agree that most humans will tell lies to escape consequences that can feel overwhelming

It really is a herculean effort for a BS to find their own feet and then forgive and then rebuild , it also takes alot for a WS to truly accept responsibility and curtail their natural responses to sex deceit adventure and validation .

I can see being pissed about it as a BS. I was too for awhile. I also struggled mightily with the boundaries thing for several months after dday1.

But like other times in my life, things didn't get better for me until I laid down a hard line boundary. My xwh was still being a wayward pos until I said 'when'. I mean... he's still a wayward pos, but no longer my problem so I no longer have to care.

For me, at the end of the day, I count this a hugely impactful life lesson for myself about demanding the respect I deserve and not accepting less ever. Definitely not the way I would have wanted to learn this lesson, but the universe knows that I am hard-headed and wouldn't learn it any other way.

I get not being ready as the BS (cus I definitely wasn't ready right out of the gate either), but honestly I agree with the podcast guy - things generally don't improve (whether that ultimately means R D or whatever) until the BS takes those reins. It's not fair, but it is key.

I have been thinking about this all day. I guess I need to listen to the interview.

I've seen where people liken betrayal as a large withdrawal from the marriage. R can be deposits that over time build back up that capital. Do you really have to tell the other person that the account is finite and some day they will overdraw? This is compounded by the fact that the BS logges in expecting to see a balance of $xx,xxx.xx and found a balance of $x.xx. it should be obvious you can't withdraw anymore.

I don't know, this is what I'm thinking about. Maybe I'm upset because my WS put our marriage into debt and the whole time I was begging her to stop. I didn't think I needed to point out that it was harmful and eventually it would ruin the marriage.

Actually, I found the interview to be quite informative and comforting. Thanks for sharing gmc94.