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WW has put me and my kids thru Hell over the last year. Essentially abandoned us for the OM. Now she wants to try R for "real" this time since I gave her the D papers. She wrote the NC letter to OM, has been sticking close to home, been good about giving me proof of her wearabouts when out, and answering calls and texts. This great community has guided me to expect a lot more from her before I get caught up in hope for R, and I am pushing for those things.

The major issue I am trying to understand is that she is feeling completely numb towards me. Part of it is the traditional "ILYBANILWY" garbage, but it goes beyond that. She started feeling numb towards me emotionally a year before the A started. It progressed to where she even feels numb in the bedroom with me (also began before the A). For many, many years I barely had to touch her to bring her pleasure, now I can go all night and she can't reach climax. I have been totally open and asked her if I can do something differently that would feel better for her, but she says I am doing everything right. Of course, I had to ask and unfortunately, was told that the OM was able to give her pleasure every time, which is so painful for me. Is this something that happens pretty often with a WW and it eventually gets better, or am I just hopelessly incompatible sexually with my WW now? This lack of enjoyable physical intimacy is preventing us from getting closer and is causing me a lot of anxiety about my "performance". I can also tell that she is frustrated. She only enjoys the traditional act, so I can't get any help from doing tounge twisters or marital aides. Please help me understand if this ever gets better...

I am confused on why she wants to R if she's not in love with you, and is completely numb to you? That really makes no sense at all to me. Has she explained? Did the OM dump her or something? Why are you willing to settle for somebody who is not in love with you and is numb to you, especially after being put through hell and her being out of the relationship for a year?

Of course, I had to ask and unfortunately, was told that the OM was able to give her pleasure every time, which is so painful for me.

Ok, but you said yourself you also did this as well at one point. So do you really think the issue is a you issue, or is it a her issue? Do you really think this OM was so great that he has ruined her for all other men? (it's doubtful)

She could definitely be in what people call "limerance" and sure, maybe eventually that will change. It does change for some. I personally wouldn't be ok with sticking around hoping that it will though. You don't have to settle for plan B.

Why are you trying to work things out with her if she says she isn't in love with you? She has put you and the kids through hell, and now this sex stuff?

I am sorry but the OM doesn't have magical parts. I don't want to speak for all women but - it just doesn't/hasn't ever worked that way in my experience. She can communicate to you what she likes or what feels good. This guy isn't a special, beautiful, magical sex god.

I can also tell that she is frustrated. She only enjoys the traditional act, so I can't get any help from doing tounge twisters or marital aides.

^^^what on earth? She is too much work. What a mess.

*edited to add this - she can say what she does or does not want done to her body. But it seems frustrating for her to say it has to be PIV only and then she gets frustrated that you aren't getting her off. But you aren't allowed to try other things. Her body her rules. Has she always had this rule?*

Your wife sounds like she sucks. Why are you wanting to reconcile with someone that is SO MUCH WORK. Also - but the way - SHE CHEATED. SOOO she can take charge of getting the sex life back on track. Why are you doing all the heavy lifting? Why on earth is this better for you than starting over with someone new??

[This message edited by stubbornft at 6:50 PM, June 14th (Monday)]

Ok, but you said yourself you also did this as well at one point. So do you really think the issue is a you issue, or is it a her issue? Do you really think this OM was so great that he has ruined her for all other men? (it's doubtful)

EXACTLY! OP - it is not you! It is her.

I have been totally open and asked her if I can do something differently that would feel better for her, but she says I am doing everything right. Of course, I had to ask and unfortunately, was told that the OM was able to give her pleasure every time, which is so painful for me.

I'm sorry to say this, and I don't mean to be nasty, but it seems like the only thing you could do to make her sexually interested by you is actually be the other guy.

It seems that the only reason she is "Now she wants to try R for "real" this time" is because you were about to eject her.

You really need to question who and what you are trying to reconcile with - a woman who doesn't want you? Is that what you want for yourself?

Blackbeard123, what I am seeing more so than anything is a complete lack of respect for you. And you asking her how to get her off when she told you she is not in love with you will only push her to respect you less.

One of the things I have learned over the last few years is the "why" of the numbing. In short, it is a [poor] soothing technique. A person cannot just "not feel" a specific thing (as in guilt/shame for what their choices did to hurt their BS), so they turn off their feelings altogether.

It's a simple, albeit poor, coping mechanism.

It's also the likely reason she doesn't climax. She has closed herself off to feeling anything, including pleasure.

She needs a lot...A LOT...of IC work to get her emotions to open. If she continues to refuse to feel anything - especially sadness & remorse for her actions - she is, indeed, a lost cause.

[This message edited by CaptainRogers at 7:08 PM, June 14th (Monday)]

I also question why she wants a second chance. It sounds like she's bored with the OM and just wants to use you (until another guy comes along).

Basically her ILYBANILWY says she's offering to be your roommate. You deserve better.

You've been very patient with her and consequently endured much pain and abuse.

Your other posts mentioned that since she moved out you finally got to a place where you accepted divorce.

The NC letter and transparency is simple stuff (and simple to fake) - it doesn't warrant giving her a second chance.

If she was a good prospect to be a safe partner you wouldn't have to tell her what to do. She'd be doing black flips to win you back, including expressing love & passion and begging for forgiveness from you and the kids.

IMO in order to protect yourself from more lies and disappointment you should insist she fix herself first (before giving her another chance). That's likely to take at least 6 months to a year or more before there's a hint of change.

Showing zero tolerance for her adultery will also be setting a good example/role model for dealing with infidelity for your kids.

Therefore, proceed with the divorce. If she fixes herself and can rebuild your trust you can then consider a 'new' marriage later.

You need to turn this "she can't get off with you" around on her. What/who turns her on is 100% in her head - and only she can change it. She is abusive and toxic to you. Run!

For a while before I filed for D, I struggled with the fear of being alone after marriage ended. My best friend said something to me that has stuck with me. He asked, "Why are you so afraid of being alone? You've already been alone for years." I realized that it is possible to be in a relationship and be alone. My STBXWW was not meeting my needs for our whole marriage. It was always about her.

Being alone comes with a price, but it also comes with a benefit. For me despite the bouts of loneliness which are temporary, I have peace in my very bones. Sometimes I reread my journal just to remind myself of how far I've come. Often, I'm amazed at the pain and despair in those pages. It's a wonder I even survived. Had I stayed, I would most likely have experienced a version of that pain for the rest of my life. Infidelity is a dealbreaker for me I guess. So the peace I gave now has been costly, but the alternative would be even more so.

As she has said, she isn’t in love with you; her heart is with the other man. She is sexually and emotionally faithful to him... you are merely her spouse on paper.

Has she told you why she came back? My guess is one of two reasons, though the first is more likely: (1) The OM dumped her, or (2) she had to come back to you for very practical reasons, such as not wanting to lose a lot of money, custody, reputation, etc. You were not a factor in the decision making whatsoever.

This all begs the question as to why you are knocking yourself out trying to pleasure a woman who abandoned you and came back only to ice you out in your own bedroom. Her behavior is so cruel!

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 7:29 PM, June 14th (Monday)]

This is not a "real" R. Even if she's cut off contact with the POSOM (which is pretty doubtful), she may still love and miss him.

You made good progress and were ready to move on with your own life. I think you should choose to go ahead with the divorce proceedings and not waste your life with someone who doesn't love and deserve you.

I’m sorry to threadjack but I also wanted to address CaptainRogers:

In short, it is a [poor] soothing technique. A person cannot just "not feel" a specific thing (as in guilt/shame for what their choices did to hurt their BS), so they turn off their feelings altogether.

I’ve seen you ascribe complete coldness on the part waywards (such as your wife) to shutting out guilt and pain. I think your interpretation comes from being an empathetic person who really can’t fathom that there are people out there really who don’t have a deep emotional life and are incapable of seeing anything from the perspective of people they hurt... unless it comes to knowing which buttons they need to push in order to get their desired reaction.

For such people, the coldness and the lack of emotion is the true expression of self. The only benefits that IC provides them are that it helps them mimic a wider range of emotions than they would otherwise and expands their vocabulary of jargon (such as “disassociate” and “compartmentalize”) that they can employ as excuses for their utter incapacity for guilt, shame, or remorse.

In other words, Blackbeard’s wife can’t block out feelings that she is simply incapable of experiencing.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 7:50 PM, June 14th (Monday)]

The hopium pipe is the opiate of the BH. It causes one to see signs of (false) R where there are none.

Dude, there are no signs of R in the info provided in your posts. There are also some really false syllogisms.

Now she wants to try R for "real" this time since I gave her the D papers.

D should never be pursued as a gambit to try to elicit a particular behavior. You pursue D because you no longer wish to be married to a cheater. Follow up with your process. I guarantee you will thank yourself in the long run.

She wrote the NC letter to OM, has been sticking close to home, been good about giving me proof of her wearabouts when out, and answering calls and texts. This great community has guided me to expect a lot more from her before I get caught up in hope for R, and I am pushing for those things.

If you are pushing for anything, you're not in R. To the contrary, you're a marriage cop and she's white knuckling it.

The major issue I am trying to understand is that she is feeling completely numb towards me. Part of it is the traditional "ILYBANILWY" garbage, but it goes beyond that.

There is nothing complicated about your thread. It's crystal clear. She's not in love with you. Period. Time to move on, if for no other reason than for your kids. The worst thing you can do is model for them the idea that it's okay for a man to endure this level of disrespect from his wife.

I realize you want R, and I respect that you posted in the R thread hoping for somebody to throw you some little lifeline, something you can grasp onto. But we aren't alchemists here. Nobody can turn lead into gold. It is often said that the only way to know if a marriage can truly be saved is if you are really committed to letting it go. There is no better advice for you, my friend. Let the old marriage go. Let it go completely. You will still be in each other's lives because you'll have to co-parent. If she ever finds that place in her heart where she is actually in love with you, you'll know it without monitoring her phone or verifying her whereabouts.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 7:55 PM, June 14th (Monday)]

She's more emotionally attached to OM than you! She feels no connection to you whatsoever and she's not even doing her part for the R. You need to let go and move on. She's with you but she's not with you = ILYBANILWY...

Agreed with Landclark. She's not into you. She's not worried about losing you. And whatever her reasons for R might be, they aren't about BEING with you.

The LAST thing on earth you should be worried about right now is "your performance". Your WW is not deserving of your sexual attention yet. She's done ZERO work to repair her broken character yet. Breaking up with her AP and "sticking close to home" isn't the same as digging deep and finding a reason why she's capable of saying "yes" to sticking that knife in your back. WHERE is her integrity? What happened to her values system?

While it's true that women of a certain age can lose libido, there's no evidence that your WW's libido was in trouble while she was cheating. You can send her to the doctor to have her hormone levels checked, but that's still not going to be an explanation for her saying that she's "emotionally numb" to you.

The power goes to the person who wants the relationship the LEAST, and that's HER. Here's the problem though, you can have R on her terms, but you are not likely to ever feel better about what happened or more secure in her commitment than you do today. The reason for that is that she has no incentive to correct the defects in her character which allowed the cheating and that she will never have demonstrably made YOU a priority. So, kudos to her for her recent honesty about how you're not revving her engine ...but the pain you're feeling over that is going to stick with you, and once your desperation to save this marriage abates, everything she says and everything she does is going to irritate you. Her mere presence is going to be a burr under your saddle.

Reconciliation has to happen on the YOUR terms, otherwise, you won't heal properly. It's very much like what people have been telling you about "rugsweeping" or "nicing" a WS back into the marriage. You're doing a "pick me" at that point, basically kissing your WS's ass. And THAT is what feels natural when you're desperate to save your marriage. It feels so counterintuitive to put up hard boundaries and make demands. But when we choose to kiss ass, we better really like the taste because we'll be kissing that ass for the remainder of the marriage.

Guys get really upset when they feel like they can't sexually satisfy their wives, but women are complicated and none of you, read again... NONE OF YOU, have a magic penis which can control your mate. The brain is the most important sex organ. Not to discount the importance of hormones, Lord knows I couldn't as a post-menopausal woman. But the attraction, that comes from the mind.

Your WW isn't worthy of R yet, IMHO.

ETA: I'm not suggesting that you stop trying for R. But maybe you should put her out of your bed until she decides she actually wants to be there. When she's gotten over her "emotional numbness", she can ask to sleep in your bed again and she can initiate sex again, and IF you're still interested, maybe you'll oblige her. You see how that works? YOU are the prom queen and SHE is the booger kid with high hopes of asking you out to the dance. Put a MUCH higher value on yourself as you negotiate R.

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 9:22 PM, June 14th (Monday)]

You ask to help you understand if this ever gets better. You posted this in the R forum so I will respect that and not just digress to “file” or you are just plan b, and it will never get better and you should D. The goal of this forum is R.

If you read here long enough you will see WS referred to as being in the fog. Can it get better? In some cases. Time will tell. What do her actions tell you? After her bitter betrayal of you and your children she has a long road to prove she wants to be in the M. You decide how long you want to be in the M. You are in control. You can D anytime if you feel she is not making a genuine effort. How long will you tolerate a lack of true intimacy? You set your boundaries. You get stronger for you, so that you know that no matter what happens you will be okay.

She started feeling numb towards me emotionally a year before the A started. It progressed to where she even feels numb in the bedroom with me (also began before the A).

I'm not saying anything you did caused the A. Please understand that.

This is one of those things where I would say maybe the pre-A problems are worth considering. Is the best you are going to get is an undead marriage? Was D in the cards even without considering the A? What exactly are you guys working toward?

..expect a lot more from her before I get caught up in hope for R,

Are you sure about this? Are you sure you are not subconsciously harbouring hope already?

I have been totally open and asked her if I can do something differently that would feel better for her, but she says I am doing everything right.

This hints at you still doing the chasing for the relationship, and not the other way around.

As others have posted, she is not into you anymore, but you are hoping that she is, hence you are doing the work of trying to please her.

So, have a sit down, and have an objective look at the dynamics in your relationship now.

- Who is doing the chasing?

- Who is showing that they are working, in terms of actions and not words, on the relationship recovery?

She feels indifferent about you as she is mourning the loss of her AP, whom she had a great relationship with, and you have ripped her away from it with your D papers.

Unless the papers are filed, she will cling onto hope (as you are), that she can be with her AP again once things settle down.

Going to be blunt here:

If you want a chance at R, it may be a good idea to file the papers. This can either wake up your WS, or it will show you her true colours (please, don't even say that you know your WS, because if you did, you would have known she was having an A).

She is attempting to change the narrative from her affair and abandonment of the children to the marriage just simply didn't work out.

It seems to be in your interest to push forward with the divorce as her behavior during the affair is quite damaging for her custody and financial positions.

The endgame from her is still the same, just with a different story.

double post

[This message edited by blahblahblahe at 6:38 AM, June 15th (Tuesday)]