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Newest Member: HoardMouse

Just Found Out :
So Lost

Topic is Sleeping.

This0is0Fine ( member #72277) posted at 4:53 AM on Wednesday, November 17th, 2021

No unmet needs fallacy. No pick me dance. Step one, end the affair permanently, get absolute transparency, no contact sent in your presence.

Want to see what doing MC early yields?

There you go just one of many future time machines you can take here to see how it plays out.

If you finish that thread (doubt you will but at least browse the beginning). I can give you the rest. But ultimately I asked for a D (divorce) one year after I found out. And now we are in reconciliation.

I used to be trusting like you used to be. I understand your pain, brother.

Sending strength.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 5:05 AM, Wednesday, November 17th]

Love is not a measure of capacity for pain you are willing to endure for your partner.

posts: 2033   ·   registered: Dec. 11th, 2019
id 8698842

src9043 ( member #75367) posted at 7:23 AM on Wednesday, November 17th, 2021

The level of disrespect from your WW is off the charts. Go see an attorney. File for divorce. If she comes around and the two of you decide to stay together you can always stop the process. BUT, given the absolute level of disrespect and brazen behavior committed right in your face, I can't imagine how you could ever want her to continue being your wife. She will contact the AP again. You know that. Throw her out when she does it along with all her crap.

posts: 654   ·   registered: Sep. 7th, 2020
id 8698850

The1stWife ( member #58832) posted at 7:54 AM on Wednesday, November 17th, 2021

You did the right thing by confronting her and removing her from the bedroom.

You reacted in the way that sends a very strong message that you will not tolerate her disrespect and cheating.

If she continues to see the Other Man you should:

Read up on the 180 (you stop being her husband)

Stop funding her lifestyle - stop giving $ to her, close down her credit cards and/or cancel all joint accounts

Start having your pay deposited into another account

Stop doing favors or errands for her

I think you get the message here.

Survived two affairs and brink of Divorce. Happily reconciled.

posts: 12319   ·   registered: May. 19th, 2017
id 8698851

guvensiz ( member #75858) posted at 9:39 AM on Wednesday, November 17th, 2021

5 years is considered a relatively new marriage. Cheating at this stage is not a very good start. Moreover, like a typical cheater, she is blameshifting by telling that AP was making her feel the things you couldn't make her feel. The disgusting thing is that she has no regret for what she did and continues to be with him. This definitely shows that she is not R material. This isn't really something anyone sincerely trying to work on their marriage would want.

It's good that you stopped doing pick me dance, don't come back to it at any stage. Someone who does not respect himself will not be respected by others, especially if it's someone who doesn't respect you even before you start doing it.

You didn't mention what her reaction was when you took control, called her back, told her your feelings and thoughts and kicked her out of the bedroom. Her behavior at that time can also provide important clues.

I suggest you cancel MC. The chances of anything coming out of it to your advantage are low, and it's likely to your detriment. You may have to listen to a lot of bullshit about how you made your wife cheat on you. And they'll probably tell you to get over it by sweeping everything under the rug.

Your marriage is not, but your WW is the problem. So she has to solve it by IC.

You didn't mention the details about their affaire, you think you have the whole truth, but I highly doubt that. The typical cheater gaslights and only accepts as much as you know. Since you have many texts, she must have told you quite a bit. But she probably explained that part by minimizing and sugarcoating it. If you choose to R, you will need to request a detailed timeline of their A to be the subject of a polygraph. If what you know and feel is enough to choose D her, then you don't need to know the discusting details which can cause you mind movies.

Since you haven't mentioned about kids and much assets to share, I'm assuming they don't exist. So if you get divorced, you can open a clean new page in your life. For some, D can be very difficult due to kids and financials, but this is not the case for you.

Some prefer to R in order not to lose the person they love. They think that they are reconciled with the person they married who are in love with them and respect them. But this is an illusion, they are no longer who they thought they were. Maybe they never were.

She's probably saying she loves you, but the sad truth is she's not in love with you. She gave the speech that at best "I love you but I'm not in love with you", if she didn't, get ready for it.

The "I love you" part would probably not true either. Is there someone you love but do such an evil?

In conclusion, I suggest you get a divorce and not spend any more of your life with a liar and cheater who doesn't love you. You deserve better.

Good luck.

[This message edited by guvensiz at 9:44 AM, Wednesday, November 17th]

posts: 637   ·   registered: Nov. 14th, 2020
id 8698855

 MeltingOwl (original poster new member #79594) posted at 3:10 PM on Wednesday, November 17th, 2021

Well, I didn't get any sleep last night. After I kicked her to the guest room, I got a lot of very remorseful texts saying all the things I should have heard 5 days ago.

Wrote out a speech so I could say exactly what I intended and informed her this morning that the marriage we had was gone. That I am ready to divorce her.
Explained to her the conditions in which I was willing to accept starting over, or I would file. They included:

Kill MC indefinitely, start IC for both of us
Access to everything
std testing
Letter of NC and a talk about what NC will involve
phone data recovery (immediate)
full recount of A confirmed by recovered data

She accepted.

So now I guess I continue 180 and keep researching. Find out if this will hold or if I've just ended up dragging out the divorce. Willing to give it one last chance if she earns my trust and respect.

posts: 8   ·   registered: Nov. 16th, 2021
id 8698874

gmc94 ( Guide #62810) posted at 3:16 PM on Wednesday, November 17th, 2021

Owl - so sorry you had a need to be on SI, but I found it to be "the best club no one wants to join".

Sounds like it took a day or so, but you are regaining your agency, which IMO is healthy.

I think it's really important you seek the advice of an attorney ASAP. NOT bc you will (or will not) eventually D. But bc knowing your rights is an important part of this sh*tshow, AND bc you have received some advice (eg close bank accounts or putting her belongings in bags on the street) that MAY backfire on YOU, as divorce laws are VERY different from state to state, and even among different courts.

Another thing, painful as it may be, is that no matter what your WS has said about whether or not the A is a PA (physical affair - ie sexual, even kissing) or an EA (emotional w/o ANY touching), it is usually a good idea to get a full STD screening done... and to have your WS do the same (and to NOT have sex until the WS can provide the actual paperwork showing the results - do not take the word of a WS on this, or pretty much anything, at this juncture).

I always recommend reading "how to help your spouse heal from your affair" by Linda MacDonald. I'm told you can get it online for free. It's not very long (took an afternoon to read), but it's a pretty basic "roadmap" of the steps a WS needs to take to even consider R. It may ultimately turn out you aren't interested in R, which is fine too.

As to R vs D, everyone is different. If you don't feel, like in your bones kind of feel, that you have any desire to R, then so be it (NO judgment on that front). However, most (not all) BS are confused and somewhat ambivalent about R vs D in the early days/weeks (or months), which is also totally OK and understandable. If you are in that latter category, it's time for you to set some firm boundaries about what you are and are not willing to put up with to remain in the M. Some folks get there really quickly.... others (myself included) take some time on that front. We are all different.

The thing about boundaries is they are about YOU and NOT about trying to control someone else's behavior. If seeing the AP again is a dealbreaker (ie means you will D), then you MUST be emotionally ready/willing/able to immediately file for D (or to at least move out of the marital home). A good IC (individual - NOT marriage) counselor can help with that.

If you do seek IC, my suggestion is to find someone who has finished school in the last 8-10 years, as relational betrayal is a TRAUMA, and the "old timers" may not have much education or training in TRAUMA. They may say they specialize in infidelity, but haven't kept up to date (eg ask them what books they recommend and I'd bet the good folks at SI can give some opinions). If an IC EVER suggests that the infidelity was due to ANYTHING you did or did not do, fire them immediately. A marriage does not cause cheating... a BS does not cause cheating. Cheating is only caused by the cheater deciding to do it. full stop.

That's what I got off the top of my head.

Again, I'm so sorry you find yourself needing SI, and I hope that the members can provide some guidance, esp during these early "rollercoaster" days after discovery.


ETA - looks like I was typing as you were posting, so my post may just be confirming what you've already done....

[This message edited by gmc94 at 9:17 AM, November 17th, 2021 (Wednesday)]

M >25yrs/grown kids
DD1 1994 ONS prostitute
DD2 2018 exGF1 10+yrEA & 10yrPA... + exGF2 EA forever & "made out" 2017
9/18 WH hung himself- died but revived

It's rude to say "I love you" with a mouthful of lies

posts: 3824   ·   registered: Feb. 22nd, 2018
id 8698875

Robert22205https ( member #65547) posted at 3:19 PM on Wednesday, November 17th, 2021

In order to discourage her from withholding information, minimizing the extent of her betrayal, or outright lying I suggest she provide a written timeline (including what she said about you or her marriage) - subject to a polygraph test.

Writing it all down converts the affair (in her head) from a harmless romance into the deceitful betrayal that it is. And in order to effectively process her betrayal (long term) you need to know how you were betrayed. Otherwise you'll wake up years from now reliving this nightmare.

It's a critical foundation starting point.

Facing a polygraph discourages minimizing and withholding information. It takes control of the 'story' away from the cheater (cheaters hate that).

[This message edited by Robert22205https at 3:22 PM, Wednesday, November 17th]

posts: 2582   ·   registered: Jul. 22nd, 2018   ·   location: DC
id 8698877

ButAnyway ( member #79085) posted at 3:19 PM on Wednesday, November 17th, 2021

That's a good solid start. I used an immediate ultimatum also. Now is not the time for half assed measures. She's either ALL IN or you're ALL OUT. No Contact is immediate and permanent ... ANY breaches means you have nothing to work with.

I've not seen any mention of children. Assuming there are no children, I'd not put myself through the pain and frustration of R, just go straight to D. I've been cheated on and D'd and I've been cheated on and in R now in a subsequent M, so I have some experience in saying that D is by far the easiest way to get your life and self-respect back and move on.

Good Luck to you, your life will suck for a while, but the swift and decisive actions you're taking now, if you stick with them, will pay huge dividends in reclaiming your life back.

posts: 124   ·   registered: Jul. 7th, 2021
id 8698876

fareast ( Guide #61555) posted at 3:22 PM on Wednesday, November 17th, 2021

IMO you've done well under the circumstances. Nobody handles this crap perfectly. Time will tell. Your firm actions forced her to face possible consequences and a reality check. Watch her actions. They will tell the story. Her words are worthless. It is not a race. You will be on an emotional roller-coaster for an extended time. Good luck.

Never bother with things in your rearview mirror. Your best days are on the road in front of you.

posts: 3212   ·   registered: Nov. 24th, 2017
id 8698878

Robert22205https ( member #65547) posted at 3:26 PM on Wednesday, November 17th, 2021

I suggest you both read:

"Not Just Friends" by Dr Shirley Glass. It's based on studies of couples (good people) that experienced infidelity and what they did that exposed their marriage to a high risk of cheating.

"How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair: A Compact Manual for the Unfaithful"
by Linda J. MacDonald and Bryan Hall

posts: 2582   ·   registered: Jul. 22nd, 2018   ·   location: DC
id 8698879

Marz ( member #60895) posted at 4:38 PM on Wednesday, November 17th, 2021

6 days until the marriage counselor appointment feels like an eternity.

This field is full of morons. She’s broken not your marriage. I see you canceled. Good.

You don’t know this guy. STD testing should be mandatory. Unfortunately that’s where she’s put you.

Upfront they tend to promise the moon. Words don’t matter much.

If they have any contact or work together the affair will probably continue.

Cheaters always lie a lot. It’s good you investigated as most will only confess to what you know.

Get strong and stay there. You’ll come out better no matter which way this goes.

Sorry you’re here. You’d better put some thought into your future.

[This message edited by Marz at 6:51 PM, Wednesday, November 17th]

posts: 6791   ·   registered: Oct. 3rd, 2017
id 8698893

MorbidCuriosity ( member #74928) posted at 4:52 PM on Wednesday, November 17th, 2021

OP are you truly willing to walk away? This is no time for bluffs. You really do need to have to have the mind to actually walk away to truly not do the pick me dance. Or else its just called playing hard to get.

posts: 55   ·   registered: Jul. 19th, 2020
id 8698896

Marz ( member #60895) posted at 4:53 PM on Wednesday, November 17th, 2021

Typical cheater script. Nothing special at,all.

is when a person does something wrong or inappropriate, and then dumps the blame on someone else to avoid taking responsibility for their own behavior.

posts: 6791   ·   registered: Oct. 3rd, 2017
id 8698898

BeyondRage ( member #71328) posted at 6:07 PM on Wednesday, November 17th, 2021


Kill MC indefinitely, start IC for both of us
Access to everything
std testing
Letter of NC and a talk about what NC will involve
phone data recovery (immediate)
full recount of A confirmed by recovered data

Pretty good work in such a short time. Its way too early to tell which way this is going to go. Your situation is pretty bad in that this OM is obviously in easy access distance to your home, and more importantly your wife did not show any signs of agreeing to stop this affair until you put divorce on the table. In a fucked up way she might have actually done you a favor by being so brazen with you and telling you she was still going to see him. I will not speculate what they were doing when you called and told her to come home but I know what I would bet on. Her behavior in essence shocked you out of denial and figuring out you were either going to do what you did or live in an open marriage that she created.

Just a few suggestions on your list above.
In todays world, access to everything can be very difficult to guarantee. There are more apps out there than we can count that cheaters can use, and I am guessing by now you have figured out what a "burner" phone is. Probably not there yet because you just dropped your demands on her. And if she has a work phone and computer that you do not have access to, then access to everything may not actually be what you intend

No need for any comment. Glad you included it

I think you need to understand that the letter in itself means absolutely nothing. Its her willingness to do it with no hesitation and let you approve it that is more important. Understand that a very short time ago she was at his house and it was no secret to Om that you knew she was there and that she had refused NC. Unless this OM is a complete bozo and stupid, I would guess that he will initially suspect that her NC communication is being made under duress so do not be surprised if no matter what she says or e mails or texts him if he does not just say OK see you later honey.
It does not look like they work together unless I missed that in your post, so there is absolutely no bull shit about in person closure meetings.
I do not know what NC means to you, but I am hoping it means exactly what it says and that you do not waiver on this demand.


Nice if you can do it, and if she agrees to help you it would be a positive sign. It may not be possible in some cases depending on how they communicated. You already know they were having sex so you have to make the call on how much detail you want. Everyone is different.

obviously you were smart and took everyones advice about killing the MC. I want to caution you about IC. You have a wife who has been lying and deceiving you for months and was caught and did not confess. Why would you assume that she is going to go in to IC and tell them the truth at this early point???? And quite frankly there are a ton of idiots out there who will tell your wife NOT tell tell you all the details. Your wife can sign a document authorizing her therapist to meet with you and inform you of the basic story that you wife is spinning to them. And it is not beyond the realm of possibility that she might be told that its OK to remain friends if she stops having sex with him. Therapists run the gamut of proficient in infidelity to morons will tell her you are being unreasonable. You need to be involved in meeting with this therapist and making it perfectly clear what your expectations are.

Lastly, please do not be smitten with her agreeing to your demands verbally. She went in the course of one evening where she was going to his house to where you have divorce on the table. my guess is she was a little shell shocked. When they are cornered, they agree to anything when the stakes get raised.

I am sure you have and will be told that her actions are what counts not her words. Your next big problem is going to be how do you verify what you are being told. In your situation, with a wife who vehemently resisted immediately cutting this guy out of her life, you in my opinion are taking a big gamble not considering a VAR and polygraph.

And make sure you try to find out if any of her girlfriends knew about what she was doing. Did any of them cover for her before you caught her.

You are off to a much more solid start that many that arrive here but your struggle is just beginning.
I hope you make the right decisions.
Good luck to you.

Me- 49M
WW- 48F
Kids- 23,21,20,18 all female

posts: 503   ·   registered: Aug. 19th, 2019   ·   location: Southeast USA
id 8698912

Tigersrule77 ( member #47339) posted at 6:39 PM on Wednesday, November 17th, 2021

MO, congratulations on the positive steps you have taken for YOUR healing. Whether it helps heal your M or not is not the concern right now, you need to protect yourself. Good job standing up for yourself.

You've received a lot of good advice. Read it all and take it in.

Keep up the 180. Right now, your WW is probably in CYA mode, and as others said, will promise anything. Her ACTIONS will tell you whether or not she is serious.

Do her and AP work together? If so, she will need to quit her job if you decide to offer her R.

Her AP actually had the balls to tell her he didn't like you reading her texts? Damn! Another atta boy for not losing your mind and doing something you might have regretted. I'm not sure I would have been able to control my temper on that one.

Stay focused on yourself. Don't be afraid to talk to your friends if you need to. YOU did nothing wrong and have nothing to be ashamed of.

posts: 1593   ·   registered: Mar. 27th, 2015   ·   location: Maryland
id 8698918

gmc94 ( Guide #62810) posted at 7:06 PM on Wednesday, November 17th, 2021

Just wanna echo both of Robert22205https's suggestions (timeline and books. The timeline is not only for the BS... I'm of the opinion that it's crucial for the WS to really see the levels to which they have sunk in their actions... and then learn to combat the guilt & shame in order to find empathy for the harm caused).

I think participating in her IC is tricky - it has been for me.

One one hand, cheaters LIE. A lot. It was hard for me (as it is for many BS) to truly "get" the level of deceit a cheater may have (and then, there's the issue of flushing out what may be temporary.... or not). So, having an opportunity to tell your side of things can be important - but then step away.

On the other hand, BS participating in WS' IC can come off as parenting / controlling, etc.

If I had to do it again with what I know today, I would read how to help your spouse and some Helping Couples Heal podcast (the 1st episode/overview, the Stan Tatkin episode, and maybe an Omar Minwalla -all depends on timing and capacity to really hear and absorb it all). IOW, I'd want to educate myself on infidelity, relational betrayal trauma, etc so I had a clue what I was talking about.

THEN attend the first session with any potential IC for WS (and probably allow reciprocation). Part of that "interview" with the IC will include their perspectives on

- infidelity generally (e.g., is it a marriage problem [run] or a cheater problem [listen]. If they feel infidelity has ANYTHING to do with any action/behavior/personality or whatever of the BS - run fast).

- disclosure (e.g., does IC support WS being 100% honest about ALL A-related details IF the BS wants them? yes [listen], no [run], parsing out what's hurtful or putting parameters on the INFO [run], putting parameters on the time/place/manner [listen]. If they believe there are EVER circumstances in which it's OK for a WS to never tell a BS - run (and yes, there are ICs out there who still hold this belief. Now, there are SOME -albeit VERY few & far between - BS who wish they'd never known. I'm not in that camp, and always believe giving a BS their AGENCY is a crucial component of marriage.

- does the IC know ANYTHING about relational betrayal trauma?

- how does IC feel about all the monitoring a BS may need -esp in the early weeks/months? If they say it's patronizing and a no-no, run.

- what steps do they recommend for rebuilding trust?

- book recommendations: anything by Esther Perel or Myra Kirschenbaum, run. You can check out the book club forum on SI to get a sense of other BS' opinions are on this front. E.g., I do NOT like Janis Spring's "after the affair", but many BS do. We are all different and have different opinions. Some books are, IMO, awful no matter what. Others, may be Ok later, as some healing has occurred on BOTH sides, but could be damaging if read early on.

If the IC hasn't heard about/read Not Just Friends or How to Help Your Spouse, I would question if they have any infidelity experience (and certainly ask what they are familiar with). Lack of infidelity experience is, IMO, OK for a BS's IC, where the focus is usually - not always- trauma, healing, rebuilding trust (my most effective ICs have been all trauma - I educate them on the specifics of infidelity, but it's really not needed much... if they "get" trauma, they will easily "get" betrayal/infidelity). But, I don't think the same is true for the WS's IC where, from YOUR perspective, accountability and honesty and empathy need to be established to maintain some kind of functioning (even if just barely) relationship while they begin to work on the deficits that allowed the A to happen to begin with (hint: it has NOTHING to do with you or the M. You were in the same M and did not choose to cheat. Personally, I get irked even hearing things like "what made the WS vulnerable to have an A" ).

A CSAT (certified Sex addiction therapist) will have solid infidelity training, and the issue(s) there tend to be personality (tho many CSATs do not believe a BS should be provided 100% honesty WRT A-related details. That would be fine for many BS. For me, it would be a dealbreaker if I was not allowed to know any detail I wanted, provided that I had hashed it out with my own IC).

IC is hard to come by - so you may not be able to even FIND a solid infidelity IC, let alone get an appt or be able to use any insurance. If that's the case, then you may have to wing it for a bit and see what comes (which is kind of the whole MO of the early weeks & months after dday - a BS is doing what they can to cope, and trying to collect data based on ACTIONS of the WS, and not their words).

[This message edited by gmc94 at 1:16 PM, November 17th, 2021 (Wednesday)]

M >25yrs/grown kids
DD1 1994 ONS prostitute
DD2 2018 exGF1 10+yrEA & 10yrPA... + exGF2 EA forever & "made out" 2017
9/18 WH hung himself- died but revived

It's rude to say "I love you" with a mouthful of lies

posts: 3824   ·   registered: Feb. 22nd, 2018
id 8698921

scaredwoman ( member #78680) posted at 8:40 PM on Wednesday, November 17th, 2021

This is the first time in 4 days I am not sick with fear and pain
Crying again though

You'll find yourself go through a wide range of emotions, and crying it out is a good form of release. Good job on letting her know that her actions will NOT be tolerated! Only time will tell if she takes you seriously and does the needed work to save your marriage. Be sure to get IC for yourself as well as her.

posts: 202   ·   registered: Apr. 20th, 2021
id 8698938

guvensiz ( member #75858) posted at 10:05 PM on Wednesday, November 17th, 2021

Excellent steps.
As a small method difference; Instead of telling her what she should do, I would tell her the things I would do and then look at the sincere steps she would take to stop them.
You can't be sure of the sincerity of things done as if it were a duty.
Giving her a list and waiting for them to be done makes her job a lot easier. It doesn't necessarily have to be difficult, but a well-intentioned mistake can sometimes be more meaningful than a perfectly executed task. I think the important thing is to see that effort and sincerity.

posts: 637   ·   registered: Nov. 14th, 2020
id 8698952

SnowToArmPits ( member #50943) posted at 10:09 PM on Wednesday, November 17th, 2021

Hi OP, sorry you're here mate.

Does the other man have a wife or girlfriend? If yes, tell them he is having an affair with your wife.

The level of disrespect from your wife is very high here. Don't count on your marriage being successfully reconciled. You're looking at a lot of anger and pain in your future trying to reconcile your marriage. A long slog ahead of you.

You'd be wise to see a lawyer to educate yourself about what a divorce would mean for you.

Your wife has just blown up your marriage. Some time soon, she needs to be the one leading a reconciliation, not you. Unless she's all in, there's no point you're just spinning your wheels in limbo. You need to be able to walk away, she needs to be panicked about that and scrambling to keep your marriage together.

Other than maintaining status quo, what are you getting out of your marriage? Your wife sounds selfish and is treating you like an afterthought.

Stop crying in front of your wife. Switch your attitude 180 degrees, you need to be strong and independent to come out ahead of this mess. Being weak and codependent on your wife for your happiness is going to get you no where.

[This message edited by SnowToArmPits at 10:10 PM, Wednesday, November 17th]

posts: 467   ·   registered: Dec. 25th, 2015   ·   location: Canada
id 8698954

Aletheia ( member #79172) posted at 1:09 AM on Thursday, November 18th, 2021

Owl -
Terrible that you find yourself here, but damned if you didn't shock me and gain my respect. My mouth dropped at your wife's brashness at telling you she was going to (have sex) her APs. You saying "ok" made me sick to my stomach. And probably your wife which is why she found it so easy to treat you horribly. But you have really done a 180, congratulations, having a backbone yields much better results than trying to nice your cheating spouse back. You're not out of the woods but at least you've snatched back your dignity and are bounds and leaps ahead of other BS at this stage. Assisted by actually taking the advice of SI.

How do you know the AP? Co-worker? Sounds like he's single if she was going to just pick up and go to his home. If not, the OBS should be immediately informed. If they work together she must quit. If it's a familial connection they should be informed. Exposure is another dose of cold water. Also, don't make empty threats. Be prepared to follow through. Affairs can feel like drug addictions and it's not uncommon for crack addicts to relapse. Particularly as brazenly disrespectful as she was, she may test you. Might try to take the affair underground, or save his # under another person's name and delete their convos, or get a burner phone. If any of that happens, you'll have to at least tell your friend group because you threatened to do so. I'd also recommend pack her things up in a garbage back and leave it at his door. Lastly, still make attorney consults. Be ready to drop D papers at the drop of the hat if she challenges the boundaries you set. As you've learned, assertiveness is what's effective. I'm sorry that you're going through this.

posts: 238   ·   registered: Jul. 25th, 2021
id 8698984
Topic is Sleeping.
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